Post-Game Talk: #9: Avalanche 4 at FLYERS 1, Monday, Oct. 22, 2018, 7:00 p.m. ET

1865

Alpha Couturier
Feb 28, 2005
16,839
5,603
Chester, UK
i don't think this team can win with coots being being the first line center. V and G are top tier talents. If you can find or develop a center better than coots that over takes him and is able to play a skilled game with giroux and whomever, then that slots us in better position to be a more competitive team. The Giroux , Coots connection only works if coots is not holding back Giroux and contributing to his offensive production. So far on the year coots has 3 goals and zero assists. And one of those goals was a gift by bobrovsky.

Giroux patrick konecny
Lindblom Coots Laughton
Farabee frost Voracek

This is a roster i think could potentially be the lineup of a cup winning team. First line needs no explanation. 3rd line is actually a sneaky 2 way line. 2nd line is a dominate shutdown , play in your ozone line that could actually lead the team in minutes. Imo this lineup compliments each others ability very well. OF course we have never seen frost or farabee at the nhl level. So that is asking a lot from those two. But again i am just spitballing here.

Coots is about 20 minutes removed from a 31g 76p season. He's absolutely fine.

I wish people would stop changing everything because of less than a dozen games. It's rusty as hell.
 

hatcher

Registered User
Sep 30, 2007
12,377
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Kelowna BC
i don't think this team can win with coots being being the first line center. V and G are top tier talents. If you can find or develop a center better than coots that over takes him and is able to play a skilled game with giroux and whomever, then that slots us in better position to be a more competitive team. The Giroux , Coots connection only works if coots is not holding back Giroux and contributing to his offensive production. So far on the year coots has 3 goals and zero assists. And one of those goals was a gift by bobrovsky.

Giroux patrick konecny
Lindblom Coots Laughton
Farabee frost Voracek

This is a roster i think could potentially be the lineup of a cup winning team. First line needs no explanation. 3rd line is actually a sneaky 2 way line. 2nd line is a dominate shutdown , play in your ozone line that could actually lead the team in minutes. Imo this lineup compliments each others ability very well. OF course we have never seen frost or farabee at the nhl level. So that is asking a lot from those two. But again i am just spitballing here.
Great post. I think g,v will be to old by the time they have a chance so get the most back you can imo.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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V & G are not top end talents anymore.

G is still a great playmaker, but he's becoming more and more a defensive liability as the game gets faster, not to the point where he hurts the team, but to where he negates some of his offense. He's also easier to forecheck because he's undersized and has lost a little quickness relative to his prime.

Voracek is inconsistent (yeah, go slam me big guy), he flashes greatness at times, but doesn't play well with others (that is, he can kill the flow of a line) and is an adventure defensively (at times responsible on the back check, at times . . .).

And Couts is not 100% coming off that knee injury.

They are still very good players, and if G - Couts - Voracek was our 2nd line we'd be in great shape. But they're leaking goals playing against the elite 1st lines around the league.


As far as slamming Hakstol, why bother, talking about being redundant around here.
Like I said when he was hired, the important thing is whether the young players develop, and the answer is a resounding yes, the young players are the brightest spot on this team, it's the veterans who "carried the team" who are coming up short. As long as the young players keep developing I'm happy, because I'm focused on 2020-21, when Hart should be ready for a playoff run. If the talent is there, the coach can be found.
 

Jtown

Registered User
Oct 6, 2010
39,610
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Fairfax, Virginia
V & G are not top end talents anymore.

G is still a great playmaker, but he's becoming more and more a defensive liability as the game gets faster, not to the point where he hurts the team, but to where he negates some of his offense. He's also easier to forecheck because he's undersized and has lost a little quickness relative to his prime.

Voracek is inconsistent (yeah, go slam me big guy), he flashes greatness at times, but doesn't play well with others (that is, he can kill the flow of a line) and is an adventure defensively (at times responsible on the back check, at times . . .).

And Couts is not 100% coming off that knee injury.

They are still very good players, and if G - Couts - Voracek was our 2nd line we'd be in great shape. But they're leaking goals playing against the elite 1st lines around the league.


As far as slamming Hakstol, why bother, talking about being redundant around here.
Like I said when he was hired, the important thing is whether the young players develop, and the answer is a resounding yes, the young players are the brightest spot on this team, it's the veterans who "carried the team" who are coming up short. As long as the young players keep developing I'm happy, because I'm focused on 2020-21, when Hart should be ready for a playoff run. If the talent is there, the coach can be found.

do you remember 2 games ago where g was absolutely phenomenal on d. Make 3 or 4 great plays on d. And how do you or anyone know that coots is not 100 percent. He is leading the nhl in icetime for forwards. I don't see how he could be doing that and not be 100 percent.
 
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Lotusflower

Tha Snake, Tha Rat, Tha Cat, Tha Dog
Dec 23, 2013
4,446
4,659
i don't think this team can win with coots being being the first line center. V and G are top tier talents. If you can find or develop a center better than coots that over takes him and is able to play a skilled game with giroux and whomever, then that slots us in better position to be a more competitive team. The Giroux , Coots connection only works if coots is not holding back Giroux and contributing to his offensive production. So far on the year coots has 3 goals and zero assists. And one of those goals was a gift by bobrovsky.

Giroux patrick konecny
Lindblom Coots Laughton
Farabee frost Voracek

This is a roster i think could potentially be the lineup of a cup winning team. First line needs no explanation. 3rd line is actually a sneaky 2 way line. 2nd line is a dominate shutdown , play in your ozone line that could actually lead the team in minutes. Imo this lineup compliments each others ability very well. OF course we have never seen frost or farabee at the nhl level. So that is asking a lot from those two. But again i am just spitballing here.
giphy.gif
 

hatcher

Registered User
Sep 30, 2007
12,377
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Kelowna BC
Coots went damn near 40 games with only two goals it something. All of his goals are tap ins or flukes. Boring as f*** to but flyers are what they are now. Coots improved though but is if to a tough start sharing better then ever and getting more ice time now.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
Hard to win when you only score one goal.

The first line was abused.

The #1 defenseman stunk again.

The #2 defenseman was an absolute mess with 3 giveaways.

On the bright side, Patrick has looked like an entirely different player since returning from his concussion.

And Sanheim the last 3 games has made enormous strides, & even was 3rd on the D in minutes last night at 20:09.
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Numbers mislead, but don't lie:

Giroux 2.42 pp/60, CF% 53.48, CFrel 6.81, GF/GA 7/9, xGF 42.08, xGFrel -3.68, HDCF/HDCA 22/37
Couts 1.40 pp/60, CF% 49.25, CFrel 0.10, GF/GA 6/9, xGF 39.39, xGFrel -8.20, HDCF/HDCA 21/35
Voracek 2.47 pp/60, CF% 45.95, CFrel -4.99, GF/GA 8/9, xGF 36.25, xGFrel -13.41, HDCF/HDCA 22/44
Simmonds 1.78 pp/60, CF% 40.46, CFrel -11.40, GF/GA 5/9, xGF 33.48, xGFrel -13.5, HDCF/HDCA 6/23

Why was Vorobyev benched:
1.94 pp/60, CF% 38.46, CFrel -8.81, GF/GA 4/2, xGF 33.75, xGFrel -9.05, HDCF/HDCA 7/20

Everyone's favorite whipping boys:
Lehtera 0.00 pp/60, CF% 51.49, CFrel 2.82, GF/GA 2/3, xGF 56.75, xGFrel 14.98, HDCF/HDCA 18/8
Weise 1.15 pp/60, CF% 47.62, CFrel -5.00, GF/GA 1/1, xGF 52.21, xGFrel 4.56, HDCF/HDCA 12/5
 

bennysflyers16

Registered User
Jan 26, 2004
84,295
62,231
I trust Couturier to do the right thing on the ice more than I trust Hakstool to know where any player is supposed to be on the ice. Couturier has been an amazing selke caliber defensive center almost his entire career. Hakstool has never been and will never be even an average NHL coach.

He never critques the slop. yet jumps to blame one of the NHL s best defensive forwards, hopefully he knows the axe is coming and he is scarambling.
 

Jtown

Registered User
Oct 6, 2010
39,610
19,666
Fairfax, Virginia
Numbers mislead, but don't lie:

Giroux 2.42 pp/60, CF% 53.48, CFrel 6.81, GF/GA 7/9, xGF 42.08, xGFrel -3.68, HDCF/HDCA 22/37
Couts 1.40 pp/60, CF% 49.25, CFrel 0.10, GF/GA 6/9, xGF 39.39, xGFrel -8.20, HDCF/HDCA 21/35
Voracek 2.47 pp/60, CF% 45.95, CFrel -4.99, GF/GA 8/9, xGF 36.25, xGFrel -13.41, HDCF/HDCA 22/44
Simmonds 1.78 pp/60, CF% 40.46, CFrel -11.40, GF/GA 5/9, xGF 33.48, xGFrel -13.5, HDCF/HDCA 6/23

Why was Vorobyev benched:
1.94 pp/60, CF% 38.46, CFrel -8.81, GF/GA 4/2, xGF 33.75, xGFrel -9.05, HDCF/HDCA 7/20

Everyone's favorite whipping boys:
Lehtera 0.00 pp/60, CF% 51.49, CFrel 2.82, GF/GA 2/3, xGF 56.75, xGFrel 14.98, HDCF/HDCA 18/8
Weise 1.15 pp/60, CF% 47.62, CFrel -5.00, GF/GA 1/1, xGF 52.21, xGFrel 4.56, HDCF/HDCA 12/5


good post. Imo those who hate on lehtera and weise have a right to for previous seasons, but this season they have been surprisingly effective.

I look at these numbers and really the only explanation is coaching at this point. Especially with coots.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
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All you have to do is watch Couts or look at his advanced stats and know something is wrong, in the past, even when he wasn't scoring, he always had exceptional xGF, this year he's a step slow defensively and it shows in the numbers. The first line is getting dominated by younger, faster, more talented 1st lines.

Just watch Couts and Patrick and the difference jumps out at you.
I don't think Couts is close to 100%, it's not like he forgot how to play defense in the offseason.
 
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bennysflyers16

Registered User
Jan 26, 2004
84,295
62,231
All you have to do is watch Couts or look at his advanced stats and know something is wrong, in the past, even when he wasn't scoring, he always had exceptional xGF, this year he's a step slow defensively and it shows in the numbers. The first line is getting dominated by younger, faster, more talented 1st lines.

Just watch Couts and Patrick and the difference jumps out at you.
I don't think Couts is close to 100%, it's not like he forgot how to play defense in the offseason.

Simmer is on the first line and is COOKED and is killing them. Find me another 1st line we play where he isnt the worst of the 6 ?
 

Appleyard

Registered User
Mar 5, 2010
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good post. Imo those who hate on lehtera and weise have a right to for previous seasons, but this season they have been surprisingly effective.

I look at these numbers and really the only explanation is coaching at this point. Especially with coots.

Away from Raffl they haven't... their numbers drop down to just as bad as previous years really.

I think we have seen from Raffl's career it is basically impossible to have bad numbers playing with him at 5v5, because he is one of the best defensive wingers in the NHL and is a great forechecker to boot.
 

Jtown

Registered User
Oct 6, 2010
39,610
19,666
Fairfax, Virginia
All you have to do is watch Couts or look at his advanced stats and know something is wrong, in the past, even when he wasn't scoring, he always had exceptional xGF, this year he's a step slow defensively and it shows in the numbers. The first line is getting dominated by younger, faster, more talented 1st lines.

Just watch Couts and Patrick and the difference jumps out at you.
I don't think Couts is close to 100%, it's not like he forgot how to play defense in the offseason.

since we are just guessing here, has a forward ever previously led the nhl in ice time while being injured? Lets apply that to all sports. Injuries and playing time are two opposing concepts. If one is injured one does not get significant playing time. If one is health one gets significant playing time.
 

sa cyred

Running Data Models
Sep 11, 2007
20,843
3,111
SJ
Numbers mislead, but don't lie:

Giroux 2.42 pp/60, CF% 53.48, CFrel 6.81, GF/GA 7/9, xGF 42.08, xGFrel -3.68, HDCF/HDCA 22/37
Couts 1.40 pp/60, CF% 49.25, CFrel 0.10, GF/GA 6/9, xGF 39.39, xGFrel -8.20, HDCF/HDCA 21/35
Voracek 2.47 pp/60, CF% 45.95, CFrel -4.99, GF/GA 8/9, xGF 36.25, xGFrel -13.41, HDCF/HDCA 22/44
Simmonds 1.78 pp/60, CF% 40.46, CFrel -11.40, GF/GA 5/9, xGF 33.48, xGFrel -13.5, HDCF/HDCA 6/23

Why was Vorobyev benched:
1.94 pp/60, CF% 38.46, CFrel -8.81, GF/GA 4/2, xGF 33.75, xGFrel -9.05, HDCF/HDCA 7/20

Everyone's favorite whipping boys:
Lehtera 0.00 pp/60, CF% 51.49, CFrel 2.82, GF/GA 2/3, xGF 56.75, xGFrel 14.98, HDCF/HDCA 18/8
Weise 1.15 pp/60, CF% 47.62, CFrel -5.00, GF/GA 1/1, xGF 52.21, xGFrel 4.56, HDCF/HDCA 12/5

Whats the QUALCOMP? Because its easier for 4th line guys to move the puck against 4th line / 3rd pairing guys than it is for 1st line against 1st line / 1st pairing defenders.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
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since we are just guessing here, has a forward ever previously led the nhl in ice time while being injured? Lets apply that to all sports. Injuries and playing time are two opposing concepts. If one is injured one does not get significant playing time. If one is health one gets significant playing time.

There are injuries that you can play through (see Simmonds) but your play can be substandard.
This is where depth matters, next year with Frost and Rubtsov up, and Patrick ready for the #1 role, they might have sat Couts for the first month.
 

David St Hubbins

Well, you're not as confused as he is.
Jan 24, 2016
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i disagree. Our high end talent is very good. However, they are still capable of making mistakes. Only Issue i have is not acknowledging those mistakes. This team is average at best , and again has no real 2nd line. Weise, lehtera, amac hak are not holding this team back from being a dynasty.

I agree that we are not a 4th line away from being a dynasty, but we should not be merely an "average" team, at least starting next year. We have the talent for a top 1st line (G-C-TK), a good 2nd line (JVR-NP-Jake), and good to better 3rd (Oskar-Pimp/Frost-Simmer/TBD) and 4th lines. It is time to recognize that none of Lehtera, Weisse & Weal are currently good enough or developing into something actually good. Better to play the pimp & NAK as they could actually become something.

The defense is still a year and top line RD away (maybe it's Myers, maybe not), but the 2nd and 3rd pairings should be good to very good being anchored by Ghost & Sanheim. But again, they need to play, in all situations, work through their mistakes and build their confidence. That ain't happening now.

The foot-dragging in getting the kids acclimated is killing us, as is the ineptitude of the coaching (2 sides of the same worthless coin). I really dont know how anyone can support this thrashing about with line changes, benching the kids, and playing a system that it seems pretty clear that was never that great and has been pretty much figured out by the rest of the league. Hopefully this ends soon.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Whats the QUALCOMP? Because its easier for 4th line guys to move the puck against 4th line / 3rd pairing guys than it is for 1st line against 1st line / 1st pairing defenders.

Oh you can't compare apples with oranges, that is, the top guys play top competition.
Just pointing out the top guys are being dominated, while the "scrubs" are doing their job, which is to win the battle for puck possession and limit the damage when they're on the ice. If they were better than that, they wouldn't be on the 4th line.
So when people blame Lehtera and Weise, they're just being obtuse.
 

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