Post-Game Talk: #81 | Hurricanes at FLYERS | Thu., Apr. 5, 2018, 7:00 pm ET

[Ruck Over]

The only thing that changed was the goalies fell apart.

Well, the rosters of the other teams we're competing against changed as well. And while, yes, it's weird, I agree that the goalie play was the suck, it still falls on the coach to maximize his roster, which he continually fails to do.

Bill Matz had a credible tinfoil hat theory (intentional oxymoron for those that don't get jokes while reading online) that last year, the Flyers played so horribly because the coach didn't trust the goalies, a modification in playstyle from the 1st year he was here. If that's true, it shows he's quasi aware of his team's strengths and weaknesss, and can in some way change his tactics in order to fulfill positive potential results. Pretty sure I saw the Flyers play the same way pre and post TDL, which implies the coach made no, or little adjustments, in order to cover up for the lacking goaltending.

I make this akin to the point of Bryz telling Lavi, his system didn't work for him, that's not the way he wanted to goal tend/see shots/work with defensemen. Lavi said, "Well, that's how I coach teams to play." And Bryz resigning to, "Welp, ok, I'm gonna suck here then."

 

[Ruck Over]

Again, I know they didn't play great and I'm definitely not happy with the last 1.5 months. All I was saying was that there's been too many dramatic posts calling this a "historic collapse" and acting like that alone is reason enough for massive changes. It's an overreaction to a period of play that isn't as bad as it's been represented. If I only read this board and didn't follow the team, I'd expect them to have gone like 2-14-2 or something, based on the comments made on here.

I'll grant historic is a bridge too far and heavy in hyperbole. But when the Flyers were playing here --- consistently, and starting playing here ___, that's a collapse. (Imagine used hands, first one at about chest high, and second one at about waist high on the same person to maintain proportions.)

 

[FlyersMania2]

Showing emotion doesn't require losing all perspective and making dramatic exaggerations.

I don't care if someone makes a 1000 word post of expletives, it's far more annoying to read constant fabrications for the sake of making things seem worse than they actually are.

We have enough legit things to complain about... no need to make new ones up out of thin air.

What are the new complaints?

 

[deadhead]

Well, the rosters of the other teams we're competing against changed as well. And while, yes, it's weird, I agree that the goalie play was the suck, it still falls on the coach to maximize his roster, which he continually fails to do.

Bill Matz had a credible tinfoil hat theory (intentional oxymoron for those that don't get jokes while reading online) that last year, the Flyers played so horribly because the coach didn't trust the goalies, a modification in playstyle from the 1st year he was here. If that's true, it shows he's quasi aware of his team's strengths and weaknesss, and can in some way change his tactics in order to fulfill positive potential results. Pretty sure I saw the Flyers play the same way pre and post TDL, which implies the coach made no, or little adjustments, in order to cover up for the lacking goaltending.

I make this akin to the point of Bryz telling Lavi, his system didn't work for him, that's not the way he wanted to goal tend/see shots/work with defensemen. Lavi said, "Well, that's how I coach teams to play." And Bryz resigning to, "Welp, ok, I'm gonna suck here then."

There's only so much you can do with really putrid goaltending, I mean you can pull into a shell all game, but that's probably not going to work well. You certainly have to play more conservatively, the Flyers get into trouble every time a team like the Islanders seduce them into a "run and gun" type game. Other teams know if they turn it over, their goalie will bail them out on a regular basis, a Flyer is shocked when he screws up and the goalie CYA.

Hextall has them avoiding penalties, the problem on the PK is primarily that the goalies consistently give it up when the other team has a couple good scoring chances - look at the xGA, then look at GF, that's a huge discrepancy - then look how often we bomb goalies when we're on the PP to no avail.

They were winning games with a .906% - that shows you how good the team is that they didn't become a below .500 team until goalie play deteriorated from below average to horrible.

 

[Striiker]

I'll grant historic is a bridge too far and heavy in hyperbole. But when the Flyers were playing here --- consistently, and starting playing here ___, that's a collapse. (Imagine used hands, first one at about chest high, and second one at about waist high on the same person to maintain proportions.)

I'd maybe see it that way if it wasn't so obvious that here --- was unsustainable play that had no chance of continuing.

Of course playing at .500 looks worse when it follows being the best team in the entire league from the start of January until the end of February. But when it's compared to expectations and the rest of the year, it's nowhere near how it's been described.

Outside of those two months, from the start of the year until December 31st, the team was 16-14-8, 40 points in 38 games... just barely above .500. So really, this last month is back to where this team roughly belongs. Not a collapse at all.

 

[Striiker]

What are the new complaints?

One easy example is exactly what I've been talking about in this thread, that this team is in the middle of some crazy collapse... it's just not true.

I've also seen a ton of complaints about effort, which are absolutely idiotic. The team is far from perfect, but good luck finding anyone you could honestly describe as lazy or uncaring. Playing poorly and not executing isn't the same as not trying... and yet I see the complaints constantly.

 

[deadhead]

The TDL isn't why the other teams turned it around, it was having at least one goalie get hot.
Bob, Luongo and Kincaid all played out of their gourd in March.
Had Neuvirth just stayed healthy for a few more weeks we're pushing the Caps for 1st place.

The team scored just as much in March as in January and February.
It's the goalies, stupid. It really is that simple.

 

[baudib1]

They were in first place at the trade deadline. If they miss the playoffs that's a collapse. It's the NHL, more than half the teams make the playoffs and No. 8 seeds get to the Finals all the time.

 

[FlyersMania2]

One easy example is exactly what I've been talking about in this thread, that this team is in the middle of some crazy collapse... it's just not true.

I've also seen a ton of complaints about effort, which are absolutely idiotic. The team is far from perfect, but good luck finding anyone you could honestly describe as lazy or uncaring. Playing poorly and not executing isn't the same as not trying... and yet I see the complaints constantly.

Yeah effort isn't our problem though I might be concerned about conditioning because it does seem if we fire hard in the first, we can't keep the pace up later in the game. The last players I think I've called lazy on this team would be JVR and/or Carter. Who knows if that was even the case but they did skate around with a lax vibe to them

 

[Ruck Over]

The TDL isn't why the other teams turned it around, it was having at least one goalie get hot.
Bob, Luongo and Kincaid all played out of their gourd in March.
Had Neuvirth just stayed healthy for a few more weeks we're pushing the Caps for 1st place.

None of those guys are Dominik Hasek (maybe Bob, maybe). The teams in front of them have a lot to do with a goalie's success or failure. All those teams made moves they thought would improve the on ice product. Why you are ignoring that is obtuse.

 

[deadhead]

How many teams make the playoffs when both their goalies are injured?

 

[deadhead]

None of those guys are Dominik Hasek (maybe Bob, maybe). The teams in front of them have a lot to do with a goalie's success or failure. All those teams made moves they thought would improve the on ice product. Why you are ignoring that is obtuse.

Nor are they playing like that, they're just getting solid goalie play.
Outside of the BJs, who are having a hot finish, NJ and Florida aren't outscoring the Flyers or giving up fewer shots.
But .886% isn't mediocre, it's terrible, it's like spotting the opposing team a goal every game.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

In those 18 games, 63 goals, 3.50 GPG.

And yeah, we all know we have horrible defensemen, but SO MANY of the goals given up by Mrazek were inexcusable goals that simply can't be let in by an NHL goalie. When the D is that bad, you can't be whiffing on the easy saves. You have to at least give the team a chance to win... and he didn't do that.

As big of a piece of trash as Hakstol is, goaltending was our biggest issue down the stretch here. Hakstols been an idiot all year and they were able to overcome him... but the goalies are what really sunk the ship the last month and a half.

People can blame the coach all they want, but it's goaltending that truly cost this team. Then again, a lot of fans on this board clamored for Mrazek since the summer, so it's convenient to ignore just how horrible he has been over the last nearly two months.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Games in October count the same as those in March. If you're defaulting to what happened last as defining the season, that doesn't pass the sniff test.

Outside of the BJs, who are having a hot finish

Seriously. They've been downright dominant for ~2+ months indpendant of goaltending. If you want a 2015-16 Pittsburgh candidate, that's your team.

 

[hatcher]

The TDL isn't why the other teams turned it around, it was having at least one goalie get hot.
Bob, Luongo and Kincaid all played out of their gourd in March.
Had Neuvirth just stayed healthy for a few more weeks we're pushing the Caps for 1st place.

The team scored just as much in March as in January and February.
It's the goalies, stupid. It really is that simple.

No calling names man. It's opinions from all of us not fact.

 

[deadhead]

Well, he was good his first three games . . .

I think the second half shows how good this team can be next year, if Patrick, Lindblom and Sanheim "grow up." With below average goaltending they were still one of the best teams in the NHL, and only declined when the goaltending became putrid, .906 to .886.

Next season, if Hextall can augment NAK, Morin and maybe Frost with a couple second tier acquisitions (solid bottom 6 forwards), and maybe upgrade over Gudas at RHD (0r light a fire under Gudas), this could be a top 5 team IF they can merely get average (.912) goaltending.

If you "normalize" the goaltending the last three seasons, you can see solid improvement, which I expect to continue next year. The team has averaged 3.17 goals per game since January 1, (league average is 2.99) that's good enough to win a lot of games with average goaltending. If Hextall keeps adding talent, they could be a top offensive team in a year or two.

 

[deadhead]

No calling names man. It's opinions from all of us not fact.

--- , stupid isn't aimed at anyone, it's a takeoff on "it's the economy, stupid" and other such phrases.

 

[hatcher]

People can blame the coach all they want, but it's goaltending that truly cost this team. Then again, a lot of fans on this board clamored for Mrazek since the summer, so it's convenient to ignore just how horrible he has been over the last nearly two months.

Team d is gross to watch also and goalies like when its calm. No player ties up a stick even LOL.

 

[hatcher]

--- , stupid isn't aimed at anyone, it's a takeoff on "it's the economy, stupid" and other such phrases.

Alright then LOL

 

[deadhead]

Games in October count the same as those in March. If you're defaulting to what happened last as defining the season, that doesn't pass the sniff test.

Seriously. They've been downright dominant for ~2+ months indpendant of goaltending. If you want a 2015-16 Pittsburgh candidate, that's your team.

They were 6th in goals for in 2016-17, 15th this year, so this is sorta "regression to their norm."
They dumped Hartnell and Dubinsky faded but added Dubois, Panarin and Bjorkstrand moved into a starting role.
Picked up Cole (D), Vanek at the TDL, Vanek has been hot since he came over, but most of the improvement are young players stepping up.

 

[deadhead]

People get impatient around here, when you look at Columbus a lot of their young players have been around for a few years and are replacing fading veterans, Jones (23), Wennberg (23), Bjorkstrand (22), Jenner (24), Anderson (23), Murray (24), Savard (27). It takes time to build up a core group, we're a year or two away.

 

[Striiker]

People can blame the coach all they want, but it's goaltending that truly cost this team. Then again, a lot of fans on this board clamored for Mrazek since the summer, so it's convenient to ignore just how horrible he has been over the last nearly two months.

Well, to be clear, I’m not absolving Hakstol of any blame. He’s still a massive detriment to this team and responsible for a ton of our problems.

I’m only saying the split of blame for goalies vs coach in the last month is like 60-40. He’s an idiot but some of the goals I’ve seen let in over the last month are goals that sink even a perfectly coached team.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

They were 6th in goals for in 2016-17, 15th this year, so this is sorta "regression to their norm."
They dumped Hartnell and Dubinsky faded but added Dubois, Panarin and Bjorkstrand moved into a starting role.
Picked up Cole (D), Vanek at the TDL, Vanek has been hot since he came over, but most of the improvement are young players stepping up.

They lost Saad in the Pana run trade too, but yep. If you're the type to prefer to bet on a team that can ride a Goalie or Defense pair, they might have the best of each of those too.

 

[FlyersMania2]

Well, to be clear, I’m not absolving Hakstol of any blame. He’s still a massive detriment to this team and responsible for a ton of our problems.

I’m only saying the split of blame for goalies vs coach in the last month is like 60-40. He’s an idiot but some of the goals I’ve seen let in over the last month are goals that sink even a perfectly coached team.

Yeah but our goalies weren't "our goalies" they were the newly acquired Mrazek (whoever didn't think he was going to be shitty, idk what to tell you) and an AHL goalie. So while they haven't helped us, we can't exactly put the fault of our current situation on them. The Bruins tying goal is on us, not the goalie. Several defensive breakdowns have occurred, etc. If anyone was expecting those two to make up for our deficiencies, that was an unreasonable expectation. Our team should have adapted the style of play to cover for our borrowed goaltenders

 

[Striiker]

Yeah but our goalies weren't "our goalies" they were the newly acquired Mrazek (whoever didn't think he was going to be ****ty, idk what to tell you) and an AHL goalie. So while they haven't helped us, we can't exactly put the fault of our current situation on them. The Bruins tying goal is on us, not the goalie. Several defensive breakdowns have occurred, etc. If anyone was expecting those two to make up for our deficiencies, that was an unreasonable expectation. Our team should have adapted the style of play to cover for our borrowed goaltenders

Huh?

They’re the guys that played goalie, in a Flyers jersey, during the month of March... which is what I mean by “our goalies”.

I’m only talking about them as far as their impact on our record, not for or against Hakstol or Hextall.