Post-Game Talk: #72: FLYERS 2 at Penguins 1 (OT), Sunday, Mar. 17, 2019, 7:30 p.m. ET

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,478
164,319
Armored Train
Hart was amazing, singlehandly stole that game and had the Pens muttering to themselves.
But that showed the whole problem since Gordon took over, totally a product of goalie play.

Another game where the team was seriously outshot, and outchanced:
SCF/CA 19/27, HDCF/CA 5/10
Flyers did pick it up in the 3rd period, partially out of desperation. Without Hart, it could have been 4-0 by then.

Worst offenders:
SCF/CA, HDCF/CA
Provorov 4/13, 2/5
Sanheim 4/14, 2/5
Couts 5/11, 2/6
Voracek 7/12, 1/6
Lindblom 6/11, 1/5
Giroux 2/9, 1/0
Pens dominated our best group, not a good sign, imagine if they had Malkin.
Gordon's "keep it outside" may explain the bad Corsi, but if it's allowing scoring chances and HD chances, what's the point?

Best performances:
Myers 5/2, 0/1
Ghost 3/3, 0/2
Hagg 11/11, 3/4
Gudas 11/11, 3/3
Hartman 5/0, 2/0
Varone 6/3, 1/1
Knight 4/0, 1/1
I think for the 3rd pair and 4th line, this reflects easy matchups, but that's why Sanheim's metrics when he was being sheltered were misleading.

TK 3/7, 1/3, TK has had bad metrics since Gordon took over irregardless of where he plays in the lineup. He's scoring, but otherwise is a black hole. That's why he's being spotted and kept away from tough matchups.


Wait. How come half a season is enough for you to judge Gordon and proclaim that he is a product of his goalie, but 300 games of Hakstol wasn't long enough for you to pass any judgement on him?
 

kudymen

Hakstok was a fascist clique hiver lickballs.gif
Jun 18, 2011
22,796
44,200
Atlanta (Decatur)
I really have no idea what thread to enter tonight :laugh:

tenor.gif
 

Starat327

Top .01% OnlyHands
Sponsor
May 8, 2011
37,543
74,542
Philadelphia, Pa
Wait. How come half a season is enough for you to judge Gordon and proclaim that he is a product of his goalie, but 300 games of Hakstol wasn't long enough for you to pass any judgement on him?

I'd also like to know how you could argue the flyers played better under Hak, than they have under Gordo, despite the Flyers going from deadlast under one to fighting for playoffs under the other, but the only response you're gonna get is corsi and hdc, so good luck, @Beef Invictus
 

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,157
154,047
Huron of the Lakes
I maintain that Provorov is a below-average passer. He has all the other offensive skills but he's not good passing the puck especially when pressured. And Hagg is a terrible passer. But the bigger issue is the forwards don't support the puck.

Hmmm I criticize Provorov for certain things (usually a matter of hype/expectation), but transition passing is not one of them. Especially short area. He's performed very well at exits/entries throughout most of his career so far. Eye test confirms that for me. You can quibble with degree, but below average seems harsh and unfounded to me.

Now, I don't think Ivan is a great playmaker in the offensive zone, like Sanheim. Most of his best offense comes from skating the puck up himself, or making a give and go, or net drive. I'm not sure what his pass assists are, but I rarely view him as someone who makes many stellar passes in the o-zone, which probably is intertwined with his PP QB shortcomings.
 

baudib1

Registered User
Apr 12, 2016
8,136
11,633
Las Vegas
Hmmm I criticize Provorov for certain things (usually a matter of hype/expectation), but transition passing is not one of them. Especially short area. He's performed very well at exits/entries throughout most of his career so far. Eye test confirms that for me. You can quibble with degree, but below average seems harsh and unfounded to me.

Now, I don't think Ivan is a great playmaker in the offensive zone, like Sanheim. Most of his best offense comes from skating the puck up himself, or making a give and go, or net drive. I'm not sure what his pass assists are, but I rarely view him as someone who makes many stellar passes in the o-zone, which probably is intertwined with his PP QB shortcomings.

Really? Maybe we are talking about different things. I think Provorov's play in joining the rush is fantastic, as a passer and a shooter and puck carrier. But his reverses behind the net are quite often disastrous, and he to make a bone-headed decision with the puck in his own zone every other game. His breakout passes are OK, but to me it looks like he and Sanheim are a lot better at skating the puck out than passing it.
 

LegionOfDoom91

Registered User
Jan 25, 2013
81,640
138,639
Philadelphia, PA
I would laugh when they would put Provorov in the slot in 6v5 situations under Hakstol. He’s honestly better there than on the perimeter but that’s not really saying a whole lot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stizzle

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,157
154,047
Huron of the Lakes
But his reverses behind the net are quite often disastrous, and he to make a bone-headed decision with the puck in his own zone every other game. His breakout passes are OK, but to me it looks like he and Sanheim are a lot better at skating the puck out than passing it.

A lot of that might just be systems based. He turns over the puck, sure, but that doesn't mean he's a bad passer. He just touches it a ton. Ignoring his turnovers and ragging on those of others (see: Gostisbehere, Shayne) is something I don't subscribe to, however.
 

baudib1

Registered User
Apr 12, 2016
8,136
11,633
Las Vegas
A lot of that might just be systems based. He turns over the puck, sure, but that doesn't mean he's a bad passer. He just touches it a ton. Ignoring his turnovers and ragging on those of others (see: Gostisbehere, Shayne) is something I don't subscribe to, however.

Yeah fair enough. I certainly want to see Provorov under a new coach and new system before making grand assumptions on his overall game. How do you account for his mediocre possession numbers? I think a lot of it comes from bad passes in the D zone.
 

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,157
154,047
Huron of the Lakes
How do you account for his mediocre possession numbers? I think a lot of it comes from bad passes in the D zone.

He grades out pretty well by microstats. Then you have players like Ekholm that don't usually; other like Fowler do.

It probably comes down to not extracting enough zone value each way.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
I'd also like to know how you could argue the flyers played better under Hak, than they have under Gordo, despite the Flyers going from deadlast under one to fighting for playoffs under the other, but the only response you're gonna get is corsi and hdc, so good luck, @Beef Invictus

Simple question, if we started the season with a healthy Couts and JVR, Hart ready to play from day 1 and Elliott as his backup, what do you think our record would be under Hakstol?
Hakstol's biggest merit was a conservative scheme that limited dangerous plays against the Flyers:

HDCF/HDCA first 31 v last 29
Provorov 108/109 - 111/101
Ghost 83/87 - 58/64
Hagg 89/90 - 65/102
Folin/AMac 91/90 - AMac 45/47, Myers 25/35
Sanheim 98/59 - 94/95
Gudas 86/52 - 67/83

Voracek 87/90 - 69/57
Giroux 78/87 - 82/95
Couts 73/80 - 102/77
TK 79/60 - 47/80
Lindblom 68/40 - 82/63
Simmonds 64/66 - 40/45
Patrick 73/58 - 56/58
Laughton 59/51 - 64/81
JVR 36/34 - 48/88
Raffl 36/27 - 40/58
Lehtera 31/25 - Varone 24-40
Weise 72/45 -
Weal 54/28 - Knight 16/15
Hartman - 21/21
 

Starat327

Top .01% OnlyHands
Sponsor
May 8, 2011
37,543
74,542
Philadelphia, Pa
Simple question, if we started the season with a healthy Couts and JVR, Hart ready to play from day 1 and Elliott as his backup, what do you think our record would be under Hakstol?
Hakstol's biggest merit was a conservative scheme that limited dangerous plays against the Flyers:

HDCF/HDCA first 31 v last 29
Provorov 108/109 - 111/101
Ghost 83/87 - 58/64
Hagg 89/90 - 65/102
Folin/AMac 91/90 - AMac 45/47, Myers 25/35
Sanheim 98/59 - 94/95
Gudas 86/52 - 67/83

Voracek 87/90 - 69/57
Giroux 78/87 - 82/95
Couts 73/80 - 102/77
TK 79/60 - 47/80
Lindblom 68/40 - 82/63
Simmonds 64/66 - 40/45
Patrick 73/58 - 56/58
Laughton 59/51 - 64/81
JVR 36/34 - 48/88
Raffl 36/27 - 40/58
Lehtera 31/25 - Varone 24-40
Weise 72/45 -
Weal 54/28 - Knight 16/15
Hartman - 21/21

Can you do wins over first 31 vs last 29?

Edit: Also, as expected, the measure was HDCA. Right on cue. Chances against means nothing if the chances against dont materialize over a prolonged period of time.
 
Last edited:

dragonoffrost

It'll be a cold day...
Sponsor
Feb 15, 2019
8,620
9,581
Hell
It's unbelievable that we still have to talk about Dave Hakstol. The guy was a failure. He had a losing record over 3+ seasons. The team wasn't progressing. The young players weren't playing/progressing. The team had quit on him. He's not going to get another NHL job. Let it go.
Some thought that about Berube
 

baudib1

Registered User
Apr 12, 2016
8,136
11,633
Las Vegas
Just saw Ghost has 7 points in his last 5 games.

It's too bad he's too slow to be effective in this league anymore, according to certain sources. :popcorn:

In his "bad" seasons he scores .5 points per game, and in his good seasons he scores .8 ppg. Pretty great really.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Curufinwe

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,478
164,319
Armored Train
Simple question, if we started the season with a healthy Couts and JVR, Hart ready to play from day 1 and Elliott as his backup, what do you think our record would be under Hakstol?
Hakstol's biggest merit was a conservative scheme that limited dangerous plays against the Flyers:

HDCF/HDCA first 31 v last 29
Provorov 108/109 - 111/101
Ghost 83/87 - 58/64
Hagg 89/90 - 65/102
Folin/AMac 91/90 - AMac 45/47, Myers 25/35
Sanheim 98/59 - 94/95
Gudas 86/52 - 67/83

Voracek 87/90 - 69/57
Giroux 78/87 - 82/95
Couts 73/80 - 102/77
TK 79/60 - 47/80
Lindblom 68/40 - 82/63
Simmonds 64/66 - 40/45
Patrick 73/58 - 56/58
Laughton 59/51 - 64/81
JVR 36/34 - 48/88
Raffl 36/27 - 40/58
Lehtera 31/25 - Varone 24-40
Weise 72/45 -
Weal 54/28 - Knight 16/15
Hartman - 21/21

It also limited the team's offense, which only made it harder to overcome bad goaltending. Weird how you ignore that aspect.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ruck Over

baudib1

Registered User
Apr 12, 2016
8,136
11,633
Las Vegas
The stationary forward at the red line awaiting the lob from Hagg vs. the perimeter offense ... who would win?
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,438
155,155
Pennsylvania
In his "bad" seasons he scores .5 points per game, and in his good seasons he scores .8 ppg. Pretty great really.
Exactly.

It’s not even like he’s actually been bad this year, just relative to expectations it’s been disappointing. We know he can be much better... we’ve seen it.

Also, in down years his contract is fair, in good years it’s a massive steal.
 

wankstifier

All glory to the harvest god
Jun 19, 2018
7,683
11,097
Simple question, if we started the season with a healthy Couts and JVR, Hart ready to play from day 1 and Elliott as his backup, what do you think our record would be under Hakstol?
Hakstol's biggest merit was a conservative scheme that limited dangerous plays against the Flyers:

HDCF/HDCA first 31 v last 29
Provorov 108/109 - 111/101
Ghost 83/87 - 58/64
Hagg 89/90 - 65/102
Folin/AMac 91/90 - AMac 45/47, Myers 25/35
Sanheim 98/59 - 94/95
Gudas 86/52 - 67/83

Voracek 87/90 - 69/57
Giroux 78/87 - 82/95
Couts 73/80 - 102/77
TK 79/60 - 47/80
Lindblom 68/40 - 82/63
Simmonds 64/66 - 40/45
Patrick 73/58 - 56/58
Laughton 59/51 - 64/81
JVR 36/34 - 48/88
Raffl 36/27 - 40/58
Lehtera 31/25 - Varone 24-40
Weise 72/45 -
Weal 54/28 - Knight 16/15
Hartman - 21/21

That juxtaposition just highlights one player getting eaten alive: the previously unsustainably lucky Robert Hagg.

Also, Gostisbehere having similar raw HDCF as Hagg should show how poor the former’s usage has been. Dude gets some of the worst 5v5 minutes of all defensemen on his team.

Would be interested to see quality of line mates and relative hdcf/a.
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2014
76,364
122,631
It's unbelievable that we still have to talk about Dave Hakstol. The guy was a failure. He had a losing record over 3+ seasons. The team wasn't progressing. The young players weren't playing/progressing. The team had quit on him. He's not going to get another NHL job. Let it go.

You dont have to. You're choosing to indulge someone who is just feeding off of the attention that those with less will-power give him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DaphneLion

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->