GDT: #72 - Blues vs. Sabres at 5 PM ET on NHLN, MSG-B, and WGR

Slangston

Buffalo Sabres
Apr 3, 2003
3,287
412
Western New York
I mean I know this narrative has been going for a bit, but it’s not like the ahl is some half ass beer league where disciplined play is optional.

I would strongly bet that nylander looking good now or next year, will have much more to do with him maturing than it does having so many better and more disciplined players in the nhl.

It’s just not a real thing for any skill player. If anything they produce more in unstructured less talented leagues. That’s why guys are monsters in juniors and then scoring tails off as they climb the professional ranks.

I sincerely hope this kid takes off. And shame on Botterill for not giving him and others a chance earlier.

However this rationale is completely ahistorical.
The issue that many people have when evaluating Nylander is that they're subscribing to the idea that he's a purely skilled player, and while he's skilled, he's much more than that. Watch his positioning, it's impeccable. You don't see that level of positional play in the AHL. His game relies far more on that than anything else.
 
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Kyndig

Registered User
Jan 3, 2012
5,147
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Every time a player has an amazing game I check the stat sheet to see if they come out near the bottom on ice time. Went and checked Nylander had the 3rd fewest minutes among forwards. Housley at work as usual.
 
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1972

"Craigs on it"
Apr 9, 2012
14,426
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His brother said that Alex was always the more talented hockey player.
That got me thinking, in a not so good way, you know that old story when someone is (more) talented but can't quite put it together.

Alex has a better hockey brain, he’s WAY smarter IMO. If he has Williams wheels he would be an elite player already.

Alex could be like a Joe Pavelski if he pans out, he’s never gonna wheel around the ice or throw the body, but can find open ice and make plays.
 
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Aladyyn

they praying for the death of a rockstar
Apr 6, 2015
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The issue that many people have when evaluating Nylander is that they're subscribing to the idea that he's a purely skilled player, and while he's skilled, he's much more than that. Watch his positioning, it's impeccable. You don't see that level of positional play in the AHL. His game relies far more on that than anything else.
Come back in 3 seasons, then people will appreciate him :laugh:
 

Aladyyn

they praying for the death of a rockstar
Apr 6, 2015
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If we threw the body people would love him. I think he’s gonna be a nice two-way Swiss Army knife player who isn’t fast or physical. He’s got a lot of the same attributes as Sam Reinhart. Very smart, reads the game well, great vision but not big fast or physical.
I'd say Nylander is pretty fast, he's just deliberate with his movement :D
 

sabrebuild

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
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Yes. Anyone who knows the Nylander family knows this should be the case. Unfortunately thats not how most people think. Skill over everything. Period.

What are you talking about?

Willy was a beast in the ahl. What exactly do you think most people should take from the nylander family?

On a side note, I hope he gets the chance to stay up and repeat this performance more than once before everyone assumes he will be an impact guy next year.
 

sabrebuild

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
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The issue that many people have when evaluating Nylander is that they're subscribing to the idea that he's a purely skilled player, and while he's skilled, he's much more than that. Watch his positioning, it's impeccable. You don't see that level of positional play in the AHL. His game relies far more on that than anything else.

That’s all fine, and I hope to see him stay up enough to see that play in the nhl.

But playing great positionally at any level of hockey gets rewarded. That he has struggled so much to produce in the ahl is not because of the lack of talent around him,

It may be that he just needed more time to physically mature and take the next step, I can totally believe that.

I just can’t accept the idea that he just fits better in the nhl than the ahl.

It’s just not how it works.
 

sabrebuild

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Apr 21, 2014
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Finally caught the highlights. Really liked how Nylander made that pass to Sheary. Early on the zone entry, sharp to the tape in stride for Sheary to put the goalie off his angle.

Very nice.
 
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OkimLom

Registered User
May 3, 2010
15,123
6,580
That’s all fine, and I hope to see him stay up enough to see that play in the nhl.

But playing great positionally at any level of hockey gets rewarded. That he has struggled so much to produce in the ahl is not because of the lack of talent around him,

It may be that he just needed more time to physically mature and take the next step, I can totally believe that.

I just can’t accept the idea that he just fits better in the nhl than the ahl.

It’s just not how it works.

Maybe not physically but maybe mentally. If Nylander has to slow his thinking and reaction down to be effective on lines with slower teammates (he might be too ahead of the game in thinking where the puck is going). I remember watching his limited time when he was with Reinhart and Eichel and they had scary chemistry, and Nylander was a big factor in that.
 

sabrebuild

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Maybe not physically but maybe mentally. If Nylander has to slow his thinking and reaction down to be effective on lines with slower teammates (he might be too ahead of the game in thinking where the puck is going). I remember watching his limited time when he was with Reinhart and Eichel and they had scary chemistry, and Nylander was a big factor in that.

Again, that’s just not how it works.

I should say respectfully in my opinion.

But that same extra hockey iq or processing speed is used against his weaker, dumber competition. Gretzky didn’t suffer by playing in a league below his intellect level. And playing with lesser teammates does not require him to slow down, if anything it encourages him to play more intensely with less help. Plus they are predictable, kinda like playing with Kane, expect the dumb shots and fundamentally they become intentional passes up the board.

What requires less mental gymnastics would be that he wasn’t physically or mentally ready to play productively at the AHL level as an 18 year old.

And a bad groin injury utterly wasted year two. And this year he showed well in training camp as he matured and continued to do so until hitting this call up hot.

Now who knows if he keeps this up, but I’m betting on health and becoming a man, more than a weird space time continuum where smart players show off their smarts and produce at junior, where their physically even, stumble in the ahl because players were less capable than his junior teammates, and then found his true calling at the iq vibration of the nhl, similar to junior...

I’m not trying to be a dick, but would this bizarre line of thinking exist at all if Murray had left him to grow, he dominated juniors for at least one year, put on strength like Reinhart and then played an inconsistent year in Rochester with an injury, and then he had this season as it’s happened? I think not.

Let’s put it this way. If you had to bet something serious to you, would expect nylander to be a better producer if he was in the nhl next year at 21-22, with better teammates and higher competition, or in the AHL with Asplund and company, with nhl skills and brains?

If the answer is the ahl, I got a bridge I wanna sell you too.
 

enthusiast

cybersabre his prophet
Oct 20, 2009
18,572
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Him doing significantly less useless/stupid shit up in the nhl than in the ahl makes me think it's a motivation thing
 

Weaves

Registered User
Oct 28, 2013
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Ottawa
What are you talking about?

Willy was a beast in the ahl. What exactly do you think most people should take from the nylander family?

On a side note, I hope he gets the chance to stay up and repeat this performance more than once before everyone assumes he will be an impact guy next year.

Nylanders are all high skill, low effort players. Alex and William both play much better with higher end skill. Regardless of how William played in the AHL, i knew right away that Alex needed to play in the NHL. He is one of those players who needs to play with skill - as ive said for the last two seasons. It comes as zero suprise to me that he is better in the NHL than the AHL.
 

Tatanka

Registered User
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Jul 25, 2016
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Again, that’s just not how it works.

I should say respectfully in my opinion.

But that same extra hockey iq or processing speed is used against his weaker, dumber competition. Gretzky didn’t suffer by playing in a league below his intellect level. And playing with lesser teammates does not require him to slow down, if anything it encourages him to play more intensely with less help. Plus they are predictable, kinda like playing with Kane, expect the dumb shots and fundamentally they become intentional passes up the board.

What requires less mental gymnastics would be that he wasn’t physically or mentally ready to play productively at the AHL level as an 18 year old.

And a bad groin injury utterly wasted year two. And this year he showed well in training camp as he matured and continued to do so until hitting this call up hot.

Now who knows if he keeps this up, but I’m betting on health and becoming a man, more than a weird space time continuum where smart players show off their smarts and produce at junior, where their physically even, stumble in the ahl because players were less capable than his junior teammates, and then found his true calling at the iq vibration of the nhl, similar to junior...

I’m not trying to be a dick, but would this bizarre line of thinking exist at all if Murray had left him to grow, he dominated juniors for at least one year, put on strength like Reinhart and then played an inconsistent year in Rochester with an injury, and then he had this season as it’s happened? I think not.

Let’s put it this way. If you had to bet something serious to you, would expect nylander to be a better producer if he was in the nhl next year at 21-22, with better teammates and higher competition, or in the AHL with Asplund and company, with nhl skills and brains?

If the answer is the ahl, I got a bridge I wanna sell you too.
I get where you are coming from, but I do believe there are players who are creative by nature and the level of those around them impacts their ability to play to their strengths. On any AHL team there are maybe 5 legit NHL prospects with a chance at a sustained NHL career the rest are career minor leaguers and flashing prospects. Nylanders biggest criticism was engagement which we do not see as big of a detriment at the NHL level because it is moving faster and he is thinking at the same speed. In the A a lot of structure is put into play to account for the the rest of the line up that will never cash an NHL paycheck. So I think his injuries held him back and he has matured in the post draft years, I do think that learning at a higher level can also be helpful.
 

sabrebuild

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
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Pittsburgh
Nylanders are all high skill, low effort players. Alex and William both play much better with higher end skill. Regardless of how William played in the AHL, i knew right away that Alex needed to play in the NHL. He is one of those players who needs to play with skill - as ive said for the last two seasons. It comes as zero suprise to me that he is better in the NHL than the AHL.

It was one game.

It certainly seems like what Willie did in the Ahl matters to your thesis of, they both play better with higher end talent.

Because objectively Willie produced much better in the ahl than he has in the nhl.

Which makes your statement confusing.

But I hope he keeps it up.
 

sabrebuild

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
10,517
2,770
Pittsburgh
I get where you are coming from, but I do believe there are players who are creative by nature and the level of those around them impacts their ability to play to their strengths. On any AHL team there are maybe 5 legit NHL prospects with a chance at a sustained NHL career the rest are career minor leaguers and flashing prospects. Nylanders biggest criticism was engagement which we do not see as big of a detriment at the NHL level because it is moving faster and he is thinking at the same speed. In the A a lot of structure is put into play to account for the the rest of the line up that will never cash an NHL paycheck. So I think his injuries held him back and he has matured in the post draft years, I do think that learning at a higher level can also be helpful.

The idea that a lack of engagement, which i assume you mean pace and intensity of play, at the ahl, is improved by going to a faster paced nhl seems pretty counterintuitive...
 

Tatanka

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The idea that a lack of engagement, which i assume you mean pace and intensity of play, at the ahl, is improved by going to a faster paced nhl seems pretty counterintuitive...
But it really isn't. If you are thinking the game ahead of everyone else, it doesn't matter how fast they are going if they are going nowhere. Erod is a classic example. everyone loves his choppy little strides as evidence of hustle and effort. But when he gets the puck his first instinct is to go away from traffic and out of the high danger areas. Someone who sees that doesn't need to match the effort but defend the play based on where the puck is, which often appears that they are following or coasting. But if you can see or sense the options ahead of the player with the puck you expend less effort to accomplish the task. I am old but still one of the better players in my over 35 league. Most players are mid thirties and I am in my mid fifties. I can hang because I don't chase the play but rather go to where it inevitably has to go. Long winded but I do believe the AHL experience is overhyped in certain cases. Tage on the other hand has to transform his game from ice follies to power forward if he wants a career. The AHL would be a good place for that.

Edit:
I am in no way saying Alex is a generational savant. Just that thinking the game, i.e. the game slows down for them affect, is just as important in determining success as other things.
 
Last edited:

Royal Thunder

Frolunda Mode
Feb 21, 2012
4,406
3,426
I would add that gameplay in the NHL is not as "muddy" and scrambly as it is in the AHL. The game flows better, passing is more crisp, execution is better. Might benefit a guy like Nylander who is more of a skill and brains type of player. I do realize the irony of that assertion because the Amerks have been a more structured team than the Sabres this year. Maybe he just tries harder up here, who knows.
 

sabrebuild

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
10,517
2,770
Pittsburgh
But it really isn't. If you are thinking the game ahead of everyone else, it doesn't matter how fast they are going if they are going nowhere. Erod is a classic example. everyone loves his choppy little strides as evidence of hustle and effort. But when he gets the puck his first instinct is to go away from traffic and out of the high danger areas. Someone who sees that doesn't need to match the effort but defend the play based on where the puck is, which often appears that they are following or coasting. But if you can see or sense the options ahead of the player with the puck you expend less effort to accomplish the task. I am old but still one of the better players in my over 35 league. Most players are mid thirties and I am in my mid fifties. I can hang because I don't chase the play but rather go to where it inevitably has to go. Long winded but I do believe the AHL experience is overhyped in certain cases. Tage on the other hand has to transform his game from ice follies to power forward if he wants a career. The AHL would be a good place for that.

Edit:
I am in no way saying Alex is a generational savant. Just that thinking the game, i.e. the game slows down for them affect, is just as important in determining success as other things.

So I think we are talking past each other a bit.

Your example of your beer league experience is kind of my point. You are able to succeed, despite being a lesser physical specimen at this point, no offense, because you play smart and see things better than your opponents and teammates. And I think we can agree that beer league is not very organized.

So that example kinda proves the point, if Alex was thinking “too” fast for the ahl, he would similarly have succeeded, like yourself, because he can take advantage of less intelligent players. He would over produce, for his athleticism and maturity.

So I can agree with you, that he might very well succeed at the nhl next year or the year after. But it’s not because playing at the nhl is a slower pace or because his teammates will be better. I would posit it is because he matured physically and mentally enough to use his ability effectively at the professional level. I suspect he would crush the ahl next year at 22 if he stays down, regardless of the difference in play between the two leagues, if we are to believe that his last performance is typical of his future nhl production.
 

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