Prospect Info: 6th Overall Pick Moritz Seider, Defence, DEL

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  1. Frk It Registered User

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    I’m more concerned about him playing 22+ minutes and on a top PP unit next year than anything else.

    Hronek went from playing against men in his draft year to the OHL the following year... how does everyone feel about that now?

    From what I’ve seen this kid is very composed with the puck. Throws some very hard + accurate passes. I think he can actually be a power play guy in the future, but he needs to get confidence in that role first. I think the OHL makes a lot of sense for him next year, personally.
     
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  2. Coach Nate Angry Rampage Expat

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    Sedier was drafted out of Europe, so the CHL agreement doesn't apply. IIRC, if the Wings wanted him to play in the OHL, it would be on a "loan".
     
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  3. Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    I totally agree and was going to make this very same point. When looking over DEL rosters and scoring leaders before we drafted Seider, I came across a lot of familiar, former NHL names. The DEL is a very strong and competitive league and Mannheim is a powerhouse team with great coaching, culture and facilities. My only concern with Mo playing there is ice time and PP time. I cannot remember where I heard it and I am not able to find these stats, but I believe that Seider's ice time increased as the season went on and after his injuries. I have heard that he logged a lot of important minutes during Mannheim's playoff run.
    When I'm on a better computer or device I'm going to look into this more.
     
  4. newfy Registered User

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    He wasnt drafted out of the OHL so he wouldnt have to stay there and could go to the AHL the next season, and I dont disagree about the OHL. I think young D usually need to play against men to develop their defensive games but Seider isnt really that guy. A year where his defense doesnt develop much but he can get creative offensively without getting burned because of it a lot might be best for him. But he might be able to do that in the AHL too, wait and see how he does in camp I guess and go from there. Doesnt sound like St James thinks he'll be in the OHL
     
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  5. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

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    Maybe I can save you the trouble, since I kept track of his minutes over the course of the season.
    A couple of notes up front:
    There were a few games where I don't necessarily trust the official numbers because it felt that he played more minutes (and in one case less minutes) than the official game logs show.
    Mannheim often played with 7 D which lowered Seider's minutes, but they did not shelter him except maybe for the first couple of months.

    Regular Season:
    Game #TOI TotalTOI ESTOI PPTOI SH
    112:5712:4800:0000:09
    212:1111:2000:0000:51
    3DNP
    4DNP
    505:1105:0600:0000:05
    608:2708:0600:0000:21
    710:5609:4100:0001:15
    808:2608:2600:0000:00
    912:2811:5000:1700:21
    1016:0714:5400:0301:10
    1111:5411:2800:2500:01
    1211:0411:0300:0000:01
    1312:2109:3700:0002:44
    1413:1409:3400:0003:40
    1510:5710:5700:0000:00
    1606:5805:1200:0001:46
    1714:5112:5000:0002:01
    18DNP
    19DNP
    20DNP
    21DNP
    22DNP
    23DNP
    24DNP
    25DNP
    26DNP
    27DNP
    28DNP
    2913:0612:5200:1100:03
    3010:1309:3500:0900:29
    3111:5709:5200:0002:05
    3212:1811:1500:0001:03
    3313:0710:5400:1401:59
    3414:0912:2300:0001:46
    3516:5114:5100:0101:59
    3614:0312:2500:0001:38
    3713:4312:1600:0001:27
    3815:5813:5600:2101:41
    39DNP
    40DNP
    41DNP
    42DNP
    43DNP
    44DNP
    45DNP
    46DNP
    47DNP
    48DNP
    4911:5711:3900:0000:18
    5010:2910:2800:0100:00
    5112:5912:5800:0000:01
    5213:1913:1600:0200:01

    Playoffs:
    Game #TOI TotalTOI ESTOI PPTOI SH
    111:1311:0700:0600:00
    211:3611:3600:0000:00
    310:4010:4000:0000:00
    410:0509:0300:3700:25
    512:2012:1900:0100:00
    618:3118:2200:0000:09
    710:3110:0400:0000:27
    811:1111:1100:0000:00
    911:4511:0000:2600:19
    1017:5617:5600:0000:00
    1112:4511:1500:0001:30
    1207:4007:4000:0000:00
    1311:4310:1700:4100:45
    1407:3406:4800:4600:00
     
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  6. Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    This rocks, Maverick, thank you for posting it.
    A bit disappointing at first glance, but have to consider that this is a championship team and they are likely to lean on their steady, reliable, veteran Dmen.

    I see an uptick in Mo's PK time shortly after midseason and will assume that was due to an injury to another Dman. I also see two 17+ minute playoff games and I'm going to assume those were due to injury or overtime.

    Pretty consistent usage throughout the season which, to me, seems typically low as one might expect from a rookie joining an established contender.

    Maverick, if he returns to Mannheim do you think that their usage of him will change? Will PP time be blocked by players like Katic and Lehtivouri (31 pts in 41 games is very impressive)?
    It truly does seem like a great organization with that established winning culture we love so much - not a single minus player on the whole team. I'd love for him to stay in Mannheim competing for a championship and earning a larger role. Even if he starts the season averaging 10 minutes a night, I have to think that his skill and talent will have him closer to top line minutes by mid-season, but perhaps that is purely based on ignorance and optimism.
     
  7. Frk It Registered User

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    That should make this easy... AHL or OHL it is...
     
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  8. ricky0034 Registered User

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    still not sure the direction i'd personally go but the more I think about it the less opposed I am to the OHL route

    I do think he would be on essentially a 1 year faster track in the AHL(handful of games 9 or less in the NHL this year then possibly full time in the NHL next year vs handful of games 9 or less in the NHL next year then possibly full time in the NHL the year after) but i'm not sure whether or not that's even a positive thing
     
  9. Maverick41 HFBoards Sponsor Sponsor

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    For comparison here is the TOI for all Mannheim defensemen. (I don't have the PP and SH TOI for the others because I would have to compile them manually going through every single game report and I don't have time to do that right now).

    Regular Season:
    PlayerGPTOI
    Joonas Lehtivuori4119:12
    Sinan Akdag5218:49
    Mark Katic5118:31
    Thomas Larkin3318:00
    Brendan Mikkelson4716:48
    Denis Reul4716:42
    Cody Lampl3414:19
    Moritz Seider2912:13
    Janik Möser2310:25

    Playoffs:
    PlayerGPTOI
    Joonas Lehtivuori1420:06
    Thomas Larkin1418:52
    Mark Katic1418:34
    Sinan Akdag1218:28
    Denis Reul1418:08
    Brendan Mikkelson1413:42
    Moritz Seider1411:49
    Cody Lampl208:51
    Janik Möser000:00

    So far Mikkelson is leaving and they have added Chad Billins and Bjorn Krupp.
    I think Seider should see an increase in ice time but I would expect his average to be somewhere around 13-15 minutes per game, because I believe Pavel Gross will still be hesitant to use him a lot on the power play. Instead I think he will see small increases in ice time on ES and short handed.

    And as much as I would like him to stay, so I can watch his every game, and at the same time watch Germany's next great prospect Tim Stützle, I guess it might be better for him to head to the AHL (not so sure about the OHL, but if the Wings think it's best for him, ok).

    Mannheim is a very well run organisation with really good coaches and first rate training equipment and facilities, but the competition is pretty tough, eventhough I could see him overtaking Reul and Larkin while holding off Krupp. I really don't know anything about Chad Billins, so I don't know if Seider would lose minutes to him.
    Last season they usually played 7D with 5 playing similar minutes (not really a clear top pairing etc.) and the other two somehow split the rest of the time between them. And Seider was usually one of those two. I said I would expect him to play 13-15 minutes per game, but if he manages to establish himself as one of the top 5 he could actually go to 18 minutes, which I think would be fine, but I doubt he will get a guarantee for that.
     
  10. Frk It Registered User

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    Great info and thank you for the insight.
     
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  11. 2020 Dodge Sebrango fswaefgvswfhdtfr

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    I would be disappointed if Seider only got 17-18 min each night at the DEL level (and that would be a lot of icetime on that team). I think the OHL option is so attractive because he could be playing half the game. I just think that's the kind of workload we should prepare him for.
     
  12. lilidk Registered User

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    OHL Is a last place for him . He needs to learn , not teach . Id rathe see him play with Kronwall next season 10-15 min a game . I hope Steven brings elite defenseman so he can learn from him
     
  13. 2020 Dodge Sebrango fswaefgvswfhdtfr

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    I wouldn't be surprised to see Detroit tell Owen Sound to trade Seider's rights or they'll send him to Germany, though. Either for a more competitive team or just to Saginaw.
     
  14. Bench Orange Safety Mesh

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    My instinct is to say that if they believe he'll be ready sooner than later, put him in the AHL to cut his teeth on that competition and start phasing him into bigger minutes.
     
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  15. Hen Kolland Registered User

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    The problem is Hronek couldn’t really defend his way out of a paper bag. OHL was the place for him to log major minutes because he was lacking the absolute minimum necessity to log big minutes in the AHL.

    Seider seems to already have the defensive game, or at least the awareness that he will be able to handle top pairing minutes and handle the minimum of what’s required of him while also developing. It’s hard to throw a kid out for 22+ minutes a night knowing that over 90% of the time will be him in over his head. It’s a lot easier if you have the confidence in the kid to handle the 90% but needs to develop the 10%.

    I don’t think there’s a clear cut best option for him, the best fit is to put him where he is going to play the most minutes against the highest competition.
     
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  16. DInTheB Registered User

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    My guess is Seider starts in GR. I think Mannheim is a legit option but ultimately having him closer to Detroit is the best thing for the organization.
     
  17. Frk It Registered User

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    Seider is probably better suited to handle even strength minutes, but I’d like to put the focus on developing his offensive game. The AHL is a tough place to do that, especially when you weren’t doing it in the league you were in prior. We will see where they land on this, but I am leaning towards the OHL currently, weighing the options and with the info I am seeing around this.
     
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  18. Pavels Dog Registered User

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    Competition for minutes in GR could be pretty fierce next year, no?
    Saarijarvi, Hicketts, Kaski.. Lindstrom? If we're worried about him not getting enough icetime in Germany, it doesn't seem like a safe bet that he'd get more in GR.
     
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  19. Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    There is nothing wrong with him starting on a team or in a league where he has to earn his pp time rather than having it gifted to him.
    If he is in Mannheim or GR and gets some second unit time in the beginning, then it's on him to earn more - and I have confidence that he will. If Red Wing management feel that the OHL is best for him then I'm all on board, but, personally, I'd rather see him being challenged against better competition.
     
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  20. Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    Thanks Maverick, your insight is very much appreciated.
     
  21. Nut Upstrom Registered User

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    I am not at all familiar with the Mannheim d-men so I cannot really comment on them, but looking over the GR d-corps there is really no one that I can see blocking Seider's eventual rise above them. Of course I say that under the assumption that Cholo winds up with the big club sometime during the season.
     
  22. Frk It Registered User

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    I think you’re factoring in his upside a little more than where he is today.

    All of the guys @Pavels Dog mentioned (plus guys like McIlrath, college signings, etc) could easily slot above him in GR this upcoming year... IMO.
     
  23. 2020 Dodge Sebrango fswaefgvswfhdtfr

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    I think there are different approaches at work, too. Some posters seem to want him in the NHL ASAP, so they think playing against men is the next step in that. Personally, I want the Wings to take their time. The guy we've been comparing him to, Pietrangelo, played 4 years in the OHL... and 2 of those after he was drafted. With big defensemen like this, patience is the way to go, IMO. It's not just about always playing against the toughest possible opponent. Defense is mental, so playing a lot of minutes and practicing a lot of situations and different reads is the way to go.

    If anything, I think, playing too many depth roles wouldn't be so good for him. If we want him to be a #1, he's got to play #1 at some point before the NHL, IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  24. PullHard Sponsor

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    I'm not sure about age/ transfer rules but if there is a way we could send him to the OHL for this upcoming season and then have him in Grand Rapids next season (with getting some call up opportunities) I think that could be a really optimal path to the league.

    Giving him a year on NA sized ice to be a high end defender at the OHL level would be helpful, IMO
     
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  25. NickH8 Registered User

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    I agree with this. He's never going to develop much of an offensive game if he's constantly worried about just staying in the lineup. It's unlikely he'll get big minutes in Mannheim and GR could be pretty jammed up on the blue line especially if Kronwall stays, which would force Cholowski or Bowey down to GR.
     
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