Post-Game Talk: #69: Senators 2 at FLYERS 3, Monday, Mar. 11, 2019, 7:00 p.m. ET

Danko

You have no marbles
Jul 28, 2004
10,908
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What if the flyers fired Dick Hakfart prior to the season....

History will be made.
 

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
33,324
103,977
Changing coaches often helps when a team is in a funk, which is why you should be wary of evaluating a coach off that rebound.
Berube got the Flyers to the playoffs, and is getting the Blues to the playoffs, both in rebound situations.
Does that make Berube a good coach? Lavi a bad coach?

People tend to go to extremes - I see little evidence of "miracle" coaches in ice hockey (NFL is a different matter, Belicheck is maybe the best of all time).
What's more common are bad coaches (Weight last year with the Islanders), and bad fits (Lavi his last couple years in Philly).
Sometimes the fit is scheme v players, sometimes the fit is personality v locker room.
I think Hakstol's personality wasn't a good fit for a team in a funk.
I also won't be surprised to see Hakstol land somewhere and do well, because coaches often learn from their first gig and improve.

Right, Gordon just happened to be the guy standing there at the right time to get the natural bounce. While I haven't liked the way he's worked the margins, I do think Fletcher is aware enough to not be fooled by the seemingly obvious.

Looking back on the Hextall/Hakstol era, I know overpatience is the most common complaint, but I don't think that was the root of the problem. Anytime you get to the top of such a competitive field, you have that K&T style Overconfidence issue with personnel, but this seems like such an extreme case. I don't know why I didn't see that as the root cause with the Hextall end of things until the benefit of hindsight.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,743
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Only someone stupid would think that demoting someone producing at a 2nd liner rate to the 4th line, doesn't matter. Or promoting Weise to the 2nd line doesn't matter. Or playing Sanheim the LEAST amount/game out of 7 Dmen doesn't matter. Or that not communicating to young players doesn't matter.

And what's funny, if very few people even want Gordon hired as coach because most can see all of his flaws and how they will hold back this team. But at least Hak is gone.
 

Flyrs21

Registered User
Dec 17, 2006
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I doubt Hakstol thought they were better, maybe you don't follow the NHL, but find me a veteran coach who hasn't demoted a top young talent at times to try to get them to play more disciplined, look at Laine in Vancouver, for example. Young players often resist coaching, get into mental funks, or just drift for a while because they're not used to playing at a high level over 80 games against top competition (SHL season is much shorter, juniors you can float through half the games on your schedule, etc.).

And it's not surprising that young players often respond to demotions by playing better when they subsequently get promoted - the ones that don't get their wake up call are the ones soon traded and replaced by another young player with more fire in the belly or fewer bats in the belfry.
You seem to forget last year TK playing on the top line last year essentially winning games for the Flyers and getting them in the playoffs with Giroux but then getting taken off the top line and then getting one shift the last 8 minutes of games last season even when they were behind for the likes of the usual 3rd and 4th line plugs.

You say Weight was a bad coach for the Islanders but you've previously said the Islanders are being carried by goaltending this year. The islanders get rid of Tavares and Weight and hire Trotz and the islanders are a better team this year. But in your world coaching doesn't matter.
 
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Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,440
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Hakstol was completely unable to evaluate players or understand what matters in hockey. That's one of the biggest reasons he was such a horrible coach.

Nobody who understands the sport would have thought it was acceptable to use players the way he did.
-MacDonald or Hagg on the top pair
-TK, Sanheim, and Lindblom being shoved down the lineup
-Benching our best defensemen at the end of games
-The insane overuse of guys like Filppula, Vandevelde, Bellemare, and Manning
-The insane obsession with "heaviness"
...the list just goes on and on. The guy is just flat out incompetent and doesn't belong in the NHL.

Even with this roster having insanely skilled players, who played absolutely out of their minds for 40+ games, they barely managed to squeak into the playoffs last year, thank's to his horrific decisions. How many points were blown because of the shell or unnecessary overuse of terrible players? There's simply not valid way to defend him.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Hakstol:
5x5: CF 51.25, GF/GA 2.66/2.78, SCF/CA 25.0/23.9, Sv% 83.94%, HDCF/CA 11.2/9.8, Sv% 81.72
PP: CF 86.54, GF/GA 4.22/2.11, SCF/CA 48.6/8.5, Sh% 10.11%, HDCF/CA 25.4/4.9, Sh% 14.81
PK: CF 17.48, GF/GA 1.06/9.57, SCF/CA 7.4/45.4, Sv% 75.78%, HDCF/CA 3.9/20.9, Sv% 70.00

Gordon's hot streak (26 games since 1/10/19):
5x5: CF 45.53, GF/GA 2.95/2.61, SCF/CA 24.3/28.8, Sv% 87.33%, HDCF/CA 10.1/11.3, Sv% 85.79
PP: CF 84.05, GF/GA 7.94/0.93, SCF/CA 46.7/6.5, Sh% 13.33%, HDCF/CA 22.9/1.9, Sh% 20.51
PK: CF 11.90, GF/GA 0.54/5.37, SCF/CA 7.0/48.9, Sv% 86.00%, HDCF/CA 2.7/20.4, Sv% 92.31

These numbers are almost unbelievable.

Outside the goalies, and a much improved shooting percentage, the team is playing WORSE under Gordon.
Corsi is worse in every situation. At 5x5 it's dramatically worse.
They allow far more scoring chances, and high danger chances, at 5x5.
On the PP, they're generating fewer scoring and high danger chances, but they're scoring at a much higher rate.
On the PK, they're allowing more scoring chances, and only slightly fewer high danger chances, but the goalies are playing out of their gourds.

The one substantial improvement is they're allowing fewer breakaways and high danger scoring chances against them on the PP.
 

dragonoffrost

It'll be a cold day...
Sponsor
Feb 15, 2019
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Hakstol:
5x5: CF 51.25, GF/GA 2.66/2.78, SCF/CA 25.0/23.9, Sv% 83.94%, HDCF/CA 11.2/9.8, Sv% 81.72
PP: CF 86.54, GF/GA 4.22/2.11, SCF/CA 48.6/8.5, Sh% 10.11%, HDCF/CA 25.4/4.9, Sh% 14.81
PK: CF 17.48, GF/GA 1.06/9.57, SCF/CA 7.4/45.4, Sv% 75.78%, HDCF/CA 3.9/20.9, Sv% 70.00

Gordon's hot streak (26 games since 1/10/19):
5x5: CF 45.53, GF/GA 2.95/2.61, SCF/CA 24.3/28.8, Sv% 87.33%, HDCF/CA 10.1/11.3, Sv% 85.79
PP: CF 84.05, GF/GA 7.94/0.93, SCF/CA 46.7/6.5, Sh% 13.33%, HDCF/CA 22.9/1.9, Sh% 20.51
PK: CF 11.90, GF/GA 0.54/5.37, SCF/CA 7.0/48.9, Sv% 86.00%, HDCF/CA 2.7/20.4, Sv% 92.31

These numbers are almost unbelievable.

Outside the goalies, and a much improved shooting percentage, the team is playing WORSE under Gordon.
Corsi is worse in every situation. At 5x5 it's dramatically worse.
They allow far more scoring chances, and high danger chances, at 5x5.
On the PP, they're generating fewer scoring and high danger chances, but they're scoring at a much higher rate.
On the PK, they're allowing more scoring chances, and only slightly fewer high danger chances, but the goalies are playing out of their gourds.

The one substantial improvement is they're allowing fewer breakaways and high danger scoring chances against them on the PP.
And that’s why they play the games
 
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landsbergfan

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
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Good goaltending masks a lot of issues, but it isn't the reason a lot of their players started playing well again. I do believe there is a confidence in trusting your goalies, but the team is playing better in front of them too.

No one specific reason why they went from complete trash to one of the hottest teams in the league. Good goaltending and getting rid of Hakstol are the top 2 reasons though. IMHO
 

landsbergfan

Registered User
Jun 20, 2018
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One thing I previously wasn't but now definitely am too lazy to figure out on my own is how often plays like this are happening now compared to pre-Sanheim/Myers/Gordon. They happened just from memory last night on Laughton's goal and Konecny scored against Greiss like this with Ghost tipped the puck to him in transition and then driving the net.


Plays like this are nice, but how much cooler is it when the defenseman stops at the point so the winger comes in, has no one to pass to and then circles back when the defenseman pressures him, resulting in nice juicy point shot

edit: Sanheim <3
 
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deadhead

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Feb 26, 2014
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Good goaltending masks a lot of issues, but it isn't the reason a lot of their players started playing well again. I do believe there is a confidence in trusting your goalies, but the team is playing better in front of them too.

No one specific reason why they went from complete trash to one of the hottest teams in the league. Good goaltending and getting rid of Hakstol are the top 2 reasons though. IMHO

People love to ignore facts so as to retain their preconceived notions.

THE NUMBERS SHOW THAT THEY'RE NOT PLAYING BETTER AS A TEAM

The only things that have improved is fewer mistakes on the PP leading to SH goals, and a higher shooting percentage at both 5x5 and especially the PP, which is partially regression to the mean, and partially unsustainable (when players have higher than their norm Sh%, they tend to regress). Some may be real improvement by young players, but it's unlikely that Gordon has the pixie dust to make most players better shooters.
Otherwise they've getting dominated in terms of possession, and it's not Gordon's "protect the goalie" scheme, they're giving up more scoring chances as well and generating fewer high danger scoring chances.

The overwhelming bulk of the team's improvement has been in goal.
And while that should continue to some extent, both Elliott and Hart have shown signs of faltering recently.
If they come back to say just "average," given the remaining schedule, expect this team to fall back to earth.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
This is very unexpected discussion after months and months of posts saying "You are what your record says you are". All of a sudden they are not what their record says they are.

In summary, under Hakstol:
- You are what your record says you are (when poor)
- Poor goaltending numbers are largely due to the coach’s systems & not an excuse for the team’s poor record

Under Gordon:
- You aren’t what your record says you are (when good)
- Good goaltending numbers have little to nothing to do with the coach’s system, which is still bad, & are an excuse for the team’s good record

Consistent logic
 

Outlaw Samurai

FROST WARNING in effect
Jun 24, 2018
3,374
5,896
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Sounds like I'm missing some titillating essay's :laugh:

Free yourselves and remember it can all go away.

IMG_0528.JPG
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
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You are what your record says you are (over an extended period).
GMs should beware the ides of March and short-term success/failure.
The key is to identify the "baseline," what should be expected over a full season or in the playoffs when teams are more competitive and the games are more physical.

I doubt Fletcher is fooled.
 

BernieParent

In misery of redwings of suckage for a long time
Mar 13, 2009
24,482
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Deadhead’s excuse for everything is SV% and goaltending. If only it were so simple.

It's not entirely unfounded, though. The Islanders had some exquisitely good looks in close and fired a ton of them wide and Elliott stopped most of the others. He didn't make highlight-reel stops but just got body parts in front of shots that weren't perfectly placed. As a goalie, I find some of the most difficult stops on shots closer to the body rather than stretching out for them. Several of Elliott's saves were squeezing the gaps between his arms and body fast enough or closing the hole just over the pad.
 

DancingPanther

Foundational Titan
Sponsor
Jun 19, 2018
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It's not entirely unfounded, though. The Islanders had some exquisitely good looks in close and fired a ton of them wide and Elliott stopped most of the others. He didn't make highlight-reel stops but just got body parts in front of shots that weren't perfectly placed. As a goalie, I find some of the most difficult stops on shots closer to the body rather than stretching out for them. Several of Elliott's saves were squeezing the gaps between his arms and body fast enough or closing the hole just over the pad.
Of course it isn't unfounded. Saying nothing else has changed is though
 
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Larry44

#FireTortsNOW
Mar 1, 2002
11,872
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This is very unexpected discussion after months and months of posts saying "You are what your record says you are". All of a sudden they are not what their record says they are.
Well, in fairness, their recent record, with better goaltending and better personnel decisions, is very good. Is it sustainable for a whole year? We'll see next year.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
You seem to forget last year TK playing on the top line last year essentially winning games for the Flyers and getting them in the playoffs with Giroux but then getting taken off the top line and then getting one shift the last 8 minutes of games last season even when they were behind for the likes of the usual 3rd and 4th line plugs.

TK minutes per game:
Jan: 15:25
Feb: 17:54
March: 16:08
April: 15:33
Oct: 14:46
Nov: 16:44
Jan: 15:00
Feb: 14:34
Mar: 14:24

So he's playing less under Gordon than Hakstol. Hmm.
TK is a talented scorer who might be, along with JVR, our worst defensive forward.
 

Ruck Over

When the revolution comes, pants will do you no gd
Apr 19, 2016
4,197
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Patrick continues to learn from Jake on entries, playmaking vision, and hardnosed power hockey. You see a lot of similarities emerging. Patrick has better hair though.
Dude, c'mon. Really? This is you, being serious, for real now? What side of the bed did you get out of? Do you even sleep in a bed? Such a tired, tired response.

Patrick has no beard. Beard = facial hair. Voracek > Patrick. Nuff said!

All that other stuff, I don't disagree with it, but am unwilling to say you are correct. Neither confirm, nor deny.
 
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Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,501
42,233
Lehtera is being scratched for most of the Phantoms games while Byron Froese plays as a veteran center ahead of him, which just shows how badly Hak overplayed him for 1.5 seasons.

Anyone could see that Lehtera was a guy who should be suiting up only in emergency circumstances. The fact he was used a regular 4th liner who got PP and PK time was absurd.
 

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