Post-Game Talk: #62: Jets 2 at FLYERS 4, Saturday, Feb. 22, 2020, 1:00 pm ET

[Beef Invictus]

My god this argument needs to die, it's so ridiculous.

So Duncan Keith and Mark Ed-Vlasic sucked? How about Orpik, or Gio....

If you block a great deal of shots, it can mean that you are a good defensive defenseman that is good at stopping dangerous shots.

You're misunderstanding my simplification.

Unlike those defensemen, Hagg is blocking lots of shots and racking up hits because he is a possession black hole. Those other defensemen are not. Why even bother comparing those guys to what is happening when Hagg is on the ice?

 

[Beef Invictus]

It's remarkable that Hagg appears to block shots at a rate higher than all dmen besides Provorov, and yet he is still in the league's gutter in terms of offensive suppression. That's mind-boggling.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

In the 30 years since it's been a factor. That is a very, very long time.

not that its right, but same can be said for just about every single organization. I blame Clarke and Holmgren for not putting value into the goaltending position for 2 decades

 

[BritainStix]

Because you didn't provide any "context"

You just made a lazy stereotype and I called it out. Chara also hits allot.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because you didn't provide any "context"

You just made a lazy stereotype and I called it out. Chara also hits allot.

I was clearly discussing Hagg and the processes at play when he's on the ice.

But sure, keep bringing up HOFers as comparison points, that's super logical. Hitting and blocking shots as a means of suppressing offense and driving possession in your favor is good. Hagg doesn't do that though. At all. In his case, it truly does reflect the fact that the other team simply has the puck a lot when he's on the ice. He's very very bad at preventing the other team from doing things, even with all the hitting and blocking. Which in turn just provides more opportunities to do those ineffective things.

 

[AdamParrot]

My god this argument needs to die, it's so ridiculous.

So Duncan Keith and Mark Ed-Vlasic sucked? How about Orpik, or Gio....

If you block a great deal of shots, it can mean that you are a good defensive defenseman that is good at stopping dangerous shots.

Yeah, they sucked (last seasons of course). Gio hasnt many blocks in ES.

 

[BritainStix]

Yeah, they sucked (last seasons of course). Gio hasnt many blocks in ES.

Hence the past tense term of "sucked"......

 

[Starat327]

Oh, Dear.

 

[Curufinwe]

Why so much talk about Hagg playing when he was one of 6 available dmen. And they won.

save it for the next loss.

 

[Curufinwe]

Perhaps my point was that Hak was the type of coach that loved players with exactly his skillset.

Perhaps been an established player on the roster when AV showed up makes it much more likely he stuck.

Perhaps lots of other coaches wouldn't have been as interested in rookie Hagg that year.

Perhaps it was a joke and there is no need to white knight for a #7 at best defenseman for the next 2 years before he likely ends up back in Sweden.

I’d take that bet. Bogo just got a contract from TB, so I think Hagg has many years left playing in the NHL.

 

[deadhead]

Because certain people here can't live without a scapegoat.
I mean what do you want from your #7 D-man?
After one off game with Friedman, Hagg had another good game with Braun, xGF 67.68%.
Last 11 games he's played: xGF 50.45%, HDCF 55.56%.
I'll take that from my 3rd pair defenseman any time.

Hagg seems to have figured out how to work with Braun, given Ghost is not exactly Mr. Durable, that's a good thing come playoff time.

 

[Magua]

 

[Starat327]

Nobody blocks shots like him. Not even Duncan Keith.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If you want to cherry pick stats, one of the easiest ways to do it is to take a team on a hot streak and use only raw possession metrics for one individual player.

Or we can take the same time period and use just raw metrics to say Travis Sanheim is playing at a Norris level. I wouldn't do that either, just in case anyone thinks this is bias.

 

[Magua]

Nobody blocks shots like him. Not even Duncan Keith.

I just like how it says “SPIN” on his paddle. It’s too good.

 

[deadhead]

If you want to cherry pick stats, one of the easiest ways to do it is to take a team on a hot streak and use only raw possession metrics for one individual player.

Or we can take the same time period and use just raw metrics to say Travis Sanheim is playing at a Norris level. I wouldn't do that either, just in case anyone thinks this is bias.

On the other hand, one reason you go on those streaks is a number of players are playing well and thus putting up solid advanced metrics.

And a streak of good play is always preferable to a streak of bad play.

The core problem is determining what is a player's baseline, and is it trending up, down or stagnant?
You have to take into account age, injuries, and role.

One reason I wasn't worried about Giroux' scoring was he has a long baseline, and even though he's gradually declining (not the same player as two years ago), he's not close to falling off a cliff, so his scoring might decline, but it shouldn't have declined as dramatically as it did earlier this season, and sure enough, regression to the mean has occurred.

Where it's harder are players like Laughton and Hagg, at 25 they're on the cusp of entering their peak seasons, so improvement may be a short-term fluke or the product of sufficient experience that they can take their game up a notch. Laughton had 30 ES points last year, he's on a 39 point pace this year, while his usage is pretty similar (12+ minutes a game at ES). Hagg is on a nice streak with Braun, has he improved, is Braun a steadying influence, or is it a fluke?

With players like Sanheim and Myers, you know they're going to trend up, but how fast and for how long before they flatline?

 

[JojoTheWhale]

On the other hand, one reason you go on those streaks is a number of players are playing well and thus putting up solid advanced metrics.

And a streak of good play is always preferable to a streak of bad play.

The core problem is determining what is a player's baseline, and is it trending up, down or stagnant?
You have to take into account age, injuries, and role.

One reason I wasn't worried about Giroux' scoring was he has a long baseline, and even though he's gradually declining (not the same player as two years ago), he's not close to falling off a cliff, so his scoring might decline, but it shouldn't have declined as dramatically as it did earlier this season, and sure enough, regression to the mean has occurred.

Where it's harder are players like Laughton and Hagg, at 25 they're on the cusp of entering their peak seasons, so improvement may be a short-term fluke or the product of sufficient experience that they can take their game up a notch. Laughton had 30 ES points last year, he's on a 39 point pace this year, while his usage is pretty similar (12+ minutes a game at ES). Hagg is on a nice streak with Braun, has he improved, is Braun a steadying influence, or is it a fluke?

With players like Sanheim and Myers, you know they're going to trend up, but how fast and for how long before they flatline?

I would be more receptive to the idea of Braun being a fulcrum than Hagg. At least he has a history of doing this, albeit spotty in the last few years.

One of the tricky parts of Braun’s recent history for me personally was his partner situation. We all know how terrible the pairing with Vlasic was and that the Dillon pair was the one often pointed toward for hope, but because I thought Vlasic was by far the lesser member, the one that worried me most was being poor with Burns. Burns may just be done. It really could be that simple despite the 5x8 he’s got left.

 

[deadhead]

It's kinda puzzling that Ghost - Braun didn't work well, but it might have been just a matter of needing more time, or it might have been Ghost not willing to defer to a veteran partner - some things we often only learn about years later. On paper it should have worked as well as Sanheim - Braun.

Which is why I keep saying people here overrate talent, marginal improvements in talent often results in decline in play, because fit and chemistry matter.

Or look at Toronto.

 

[Curufinwe]

In the spirit of Carchidi's combined plus/minus, Vlasic and Burns have a combined 11 years and $82,000,000 left at a combined age of 68 as of 3/30/2020.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

in a best case scenario, Haag could have a career like a guy named Justin Braun. Do we really need to start comparing Haag to someone like Chara, Keith or even Vlasic?

I don´t think iam a hockey expert, but that is the same quality as if you would compare Leighton to Quick cause both have very good playoff perfomance back in the days.

One of them got really lucky 1 year. The other was a very good goalie for all of his career.

I don´t even know why someone could even think about something like that.

Keith or Chara are like Steve Nash or Dirk Nowitzki and Haag is more like Kyle O´Quinn and could be a solid defensive Center for his career. You would compare those also?

I mean really????

 

[gertbfrobe16]

amazing that they are winning, in spite of all this bad stuff.

 

[deadhead]

amazing that they are winning, in spite of all this bad stuff.

It's because the veteran core is carrying the new HC.