GDT: #6: Panthers 5 at FLYERS 6 (2-1 SO), Tuesday, Oct. 16, 2018, 7:00 p.m. ET

[DancingPanther]

Well. That was something. Did they deserve to give up 5? Nope. Matter of fact, I think they played very good team D. But hey...a sign of a good team is finding ways to win when things bounce wrong *shrugs*

Thoughts:
Sanhiem: Get this man to the AHL.

• Picked up a loose puck at our offensive blueline, dropped it to lindblom at the point while he crashed the net bringing 2 dmen with him.
• The vision for the shot pass for the first goal. Get this man in the AHL for god's sake.
• Backwards crossing over at the defensive blueline, took a D to D pass from Gudas, one touched it to Weise in our end of the NZ, who gained the offensive blueline with speed. If you can spring Weise? I mean....get this man to the AHL.

Voracek: More of the same. Puck possession beast and hound of loose ones.

• Had a hand in the first good chance of the 1st period with a perfect pass to a crashing Coots subsequently busting his ass to break up a 3 on 2.
• Muscling to the front of the net and one handing it to Weal. Jesus. In the middle of a lot of offense.
• Singlehandedly gave everyone time to get open in the OT, but no one did. Instead had to backcheck 125 feet to make a good play when he was gassed

I've never seen a powerplay have "everything but the finish" more consistently than the Flyers. Shocking, I know.

Konecny: Has been phenomenal. Had more near misses, getting to loose pucks all game, and the shift before the second goal single handedly won 3 offensive zone puck battles. On 2 of them the Panther had a head start to the puck.

Misha: He's still making great vision plays, decisions, and defensive plays. Hell he even had a hand in getting the Weise/Lehtera combo a golden opportunity, which Weise f***ed ed up. Shocking, I know.

• Particularly impressive/creative: at the boards where a Panther wrapped it around and he deked playing the puck, instead letting it ride back to Gudas. Even surprised Gudas.

Hagg: continuing to play pretty dece. That nice 4th goal where Folin stretched it to Laughton was started by him.

Weal: Best game I've seen him play in a long time. Over multiple seasons.

Those penalties. Simmonds and Petrovic get a 2 and a 10 each for hugging, and Hagg gets 2 for eating a punch. Shocking, I know. And the Panthers score in 2 seconds on the PP off Provorov's stick, breaking their 0/regular season. The first of 3 consecutive goals. SHOCKING, I KNOW.

Elliot and Pickard: Goes to show you what mediocre goaltending does to you. The Panthers scored 2 stupid goals and a fluke goal on Elliot. If he makes the saves he needs to make it's a 5-0 or 5-1 game at one point. No team can play perfect team D and honestly I thought the Flyers played well in their own end. The 4th and 5th goals were on the team D. 2 goals due to poor D is really not that bad, realistically. The goalies did not make one great save this entire game, let alone the soft goals Elliot let in. Let alone a good save, tbh. Shocking, I know.

 

[BillDineen]

Finally watched it. Why was Weise out there in OT with 15 seconds left? Last ditched effort by Hak to lose the game?

Poor Voro made some subtle nice plays in limited minutes, but turned it over after stealing it earlier in the game and was on the ice for a 3rd period goal. Knight will enter, will be loved by Hak and Voro will get the Sanheim treatment back to the AHL.

Anyway, JJ, with a raised voice and hint of sexual excitement:

"Hagg rams him from behind"
"Hagg pokes him there"

The only thing truly arousing was that Ghost steal and pass for a goal. That gave me a stiffy!

 

[FlyersMania2]

Finally watched it. Why was Weise out there in OT with 15 seconds left? Last ditched effort by Hak to lose the game?

Poor Voro made some subtle nice plays in limited minutes, but turned it over after stealing it earlier in the game and was on the ice for a 3rd period goal. Knight will enter, will be loved by Hak and Voro will get the Sanheim treatment back to the AHL.

Anyway, JJ, with a raised voice and hint of sexual excitement:

"Hagg rams him from behind"
"Hagg pokes him there"

The only thing truly arousing was that Ghost steal and pass for a goal. That gave me a stiffy!

Yes - Dale Weise was the player Hakstol thought would be best suited to secure the loser point

 

[hatcher]

That was a terriblw hockey game. Again playing a struggling team that looks just like the flyers. Boughner has the team to get it done though.

 

[wankstifier]

So is Ghost so far this season, AMac has just managed to take his defense to a new low.

Real point is stop pointing at scapegoats and admit our top pair has looked like dog crap so far, and I can't figure it out, other than Provorov looks slow, maybe he couldn't work out with the shoulder injury, maybe some other injury.
My suspicion is Ghost is trying to do too much to cover for his partner.

On the other hand Hagg is playing better than his numbers, looked a lot better with Folin than the black hole he had as a partner most games this season.

Gostisbehere made mistakes in the third of the recent game, but he’s been a good defensive player overall. Surely you can see he’s a much better defensive player than MacDonald?

 

[wankstifier]

Hakstol did a good job tonight.

He benched our worst player.

It took balls to pull Elliot with a one goal lead, but he was playing terrible and I’m not at all convinced we would have won if he didn’t do that.

He kept Sanheim Gudas together. He doesn’t give them enough minutes, but if Gudas can regain his form, which he seems to be, we can have two solid defensive pairs.

I rip him as much as anyone so I’ll give him credit when I think he deserves it. Hopefully he continues down this path.

He pulled Elliott too late

 

[hatcher]

Gostisbehere made mistakes in the third of the recent game, but he’s been a good defensive player overall. Surely you can see he’s a much better defensive player than MacDonald?

Not that great but the best we got.

 

[CapnZin]

But not one has actually posted any study that shows it helps you preserve a lead. They just state their opinion as fact.

Given our talent deficiencies, especially with Patrick and JVR out, and our best defensemen playing like 3rd pair guys, I'm not sure being aggressive would help preserve a lead - in this game it lead to two breakaways and goals, these weren't due to the puck being trapped in our D-zone so they had nothing to do with being passive.

To stay aggressive, you need talented, responsible defensemen who can read plays and get back and prevent odd man rushes, and forwards willing to skate hard to backcheck - when the Flyers get in trouble it's when the defensemen get caught up ice and the forwards are lazy getting back.

“The best defense is a good offense” is an adage. It’s not necessarily a thing to study. It’s a tactic the army uses- coming from the book All Harvester Products Are War Products. It simply states that even in times of impending victory, slowing down is, possibly, the most dangerous move. Slowing down leaves the team vulnerable. We see that time in and time out with a passive shell. The book also shows that in fact the best defense is the one less used. For the flyers, this sentiment could do them wonders.
To bring that sentiment home with an example straight from the book: “would you rather fight a war in our land or your opponents?”

You’re right- we need good Dmen to play a shell game. Provorov and Ghost are good Dmen, they’re just in a small slump right now when talking about the defensive side of the puck. As of right now, Sanheim and Gudas are the best pairing for a shell game, however, coupling play and weakened stamina in the 3rd period is rarely a good thing.

 

[renberg]

The Flyers need to look at Ghost the same way that the Bruins view Krug. He's a plus offensively but a minus on defense. If TPTB can live with his weak defense, then putting him on the top pair is the way to go. Ghost's constant pushing the game forward does often put his partner in a tough spot when things go wrong.
Ghost, like Krug, is probably better suited for the second pair unless/until he picks up his defensive game. It's not like he can't do this. Timonen, like Ghost, wasn't blessed with the greatest stature but he used his stick to break up plays, clogged passing lanes and was judicious about when to make his rushes. Ghost needs to add a healthy dose of Timonen to his game.
Ghost is a talent but the coaches have to rein him in or he needs to do that himself. Neither of which happens often enough.

 

[Jtown]

The Flyers need to look at Ghost the same way that the Bruins view Krug. He's a plus offensively but a minus on defense. If TPTB can live with his weak defense, then putting him on the top pair is the way to go. Ghost's constant pushing the game forward does often put his partner in a tough spot when things go wrong.
Ghost, like Krug, is probably better suited for the second pair unless/until he picks up his defensive game. It's not like he can't do this. Timonen, like Ghost, wasn't blessed with the greatest stature but he used his stick to break up plays, clogged passing lanes and was judicious about when to make his rushes. Ghost needs to add a healthy dose of Timonen to his game.
Ghost is a talent but the coaches have to rein him in or he needs to do that himself. Neither of which happens often enough.

You could take an opposssite view of Ghost and counter with " if we have this talented dman, we need to find a partner that can keep up with him"

 

[deadhead]

In every professional sport when you have the lead psychology starts to get in. And if - like in this game - the deficit then is being cut by a goal all of a sudden there is something to lose (at least this is what your mind tells you). Happens to the fans as well. Just check out the comments after the other team scores... No matter if the coach´s tactics include a shell or if you try to keep pressing (in my opinion there was no Hakshell in this game), there will be a chance for the other team to use the momentum and come back. This isn´t something that only occurs to the Flyers. Nor is it something very uncommon. Happens all the time.

But there is one thing that is a Flyers´problem: These moments are the ones when you need your goalie to step up. And THIS never seems to happen. Sometimes it just needs the one big save, the momentum swings again and the other team gets desperate / surrenders.

Actually to me this game was saved by good coaching. Pulling Elliot in that moment was good. With Elliott between the pipes we probably would have lost it and not have gotten back on track.

It's not just psychology, it's game theory.
If you're behind toward the end of the game, you will play more aggressive and take more chances, because giving up another goal will have an insubstantial impact on your probability of losing, but getting a goal significantly increases your probability of tying or winning.

So you see the team trailing turning up the intensity, taking more risks, sending extra players into the O-zone to pin the puck, and forcing mistakes.
Even if you're not in a shell, it will look like a shell as the opponent gives you no room or time to get the puck out of your D-zone.

Now if you can weather that onslaught, the losing team runs out of adrenaline, gives up a scoring chance and game over.
But if your goalie gives up a softie, the losing teams senses a chance to get back into the game and comes on harder.

How often have you seen the Flyers attack in the 3rd period when they're behind, peppering the goalie, only to be stoned?
How often have you see the Flyers get attacked in the 3rd period when they're ahead and their goalie play out of his gourd?

 

[deadhead]

The Flyers need to look at Ghost the same way that the Bruins view Krug. He's a plus offensively but a minus on defense. If TPTB can live with his weak defense, then putting him on the top pair is the way to go. Ghost's constant pushing the game forward does often put his partner in a tough spot when things go wrong.
Ghost, like Krug, is probably better suited for the second pair unless/until he picks up his defensive game. It's not like he can't do this. Timonen, like Ghost, wasn't blessed with the greatest stature but he used his stick to break up plays, clogged passing lanes and was judicious about when to make his rushes. Ghost needs to add a healthy dose of Timonen to his game.
Ghost is a talent but the coaches have to rein him in or he needs to do that himself. Neither of which happens often enough.

Ghost isn't a defensive liability (well, maybe to start this season, but this has been a weird start), he's greatly improved, has learned to use the body to shield the goal, get back quickly and stop zone entries.
But he's never going to be Kimmo, Friedman is built like Kimmo, short but stout, Ghost is just short.
Which is why you'd prefer he'd be off the ice when it gets crowded and physical protecting a lead at the end of a game because he can get pushed off the puck and out of the crease.

The real problem is Provorov right now, he's just not "right."

 

[CapnZin]

It's not just psychology, it's game theory.
If you're behind toward the end of the game, you will play more aggressive and take more chances, because giving up another goal will have an insubstantial impact on your probability of losing, but getting a goal significantly increases your probability of tying or winning.

So you see the team trailing turning up the intensity, taking more risks, sending extra players into the O-zone to pin the puck, and forcing mistakes.
Even if you're not in a shell, it will look like a shell as the opponent gives you no room or time to get the puck out of your D-zone.

Now if you can weather that onslaught, the losing team runs out of adrenaline, gives up a scoring chance and game over.
But if your goalie gives up a softie, the losing teams senses a chance to get back into the game and comes on harder.

How often have you seen the Flyers attack in the 3rd period when they're behind, peppering the goalie, only to be stoned?
How often have you see the Flyers get attacked in the 3rd period when they're ahead and their goalie play out of his gourd?

Yay game theory, and yes, you’re exactly right, but here’s the however, it seems as if Hakstol doesn’t use these rules.

The team shelled even more after the Barkov and Hoffman goal. It seems as if Hakstol game “tree” does have the same valuations and probability metrics you’re saying. Although you’re right, I think Hakstol has a heavy emphasis on a defensive veteran/reliable meritocracy... seeing that Amac and Hagg would be his move in this metaphorical game.

 

[renberg]

Ghost isn't a defensive liability (well, maybe to start this season, but this has been a weird start), he's greatly improved, has learned to use the body to shield the goal, get back quickly and stop zone entries.
But he's never going to be Kimmo, Friedman is built like Kimmo, short but stout, Ghost is just short.

Pittsburgh trashed him in the POs last year. He is a defensive liability. He has been urged to alter his game, especially to fit situations, but he chooses not to do that. How often does Provorov have to cover for Ghost's gaffes and how does that affect Provy's game?

 

[Young Sandwich]

Reading through this thread may actually be more embarrassing than watching this team right now. Some of you guys sound like my whining toddler. I understand where it's coming from, but give the sarcastic team-bashing comments a break. It's the whole damn board anymore, let alone the GDTs.

 

[hatcher]

Pittsburgh trashed him in the POs last year. He is a defensive liability. He has been urged to alter his game, especially to fit situations, but he chooses not to do that. How often does Provorov have to cover for Ghost's gaffes and how does that affect Provy's game?

That is totally the issue with Provy right now. Ghost hurts him big time and you can see it.

 

[deadhead]

Pittsburgh trashed him in the POs last year. He is a defensive liability. He has been urged to alter his game, especially to fit situations, but he chooses not to do that. How often does Provorov have to cover for Ghost's gaffes and how does that affect Provy's game?

That's not how the two were playing last year.
Ghost stayed back at the blue line and was careful with the puck, Provorov was the aggressive one, attacking the O-zone.
On defense, both played tough at the blue line b/c both have the agility to get back quickly and not get beat.
However, Provorov did the dirty work in the D-zone for obvious reasons.

They're just "off" this season, they seem to lack chemistry, but it's only 6 games, sometimes you have to be patient.

 

[sa cyred]

Reading through this thread may actually be more embarrassing than watching this team right now. Some of you guys sound like my whining toddler. I understand where it's coming from, but give the sarcastic team-bashing comments a break. It's the whole damn board anymore, let alone the GDTs.

Sometimes it gets abit much but... that was painful to watch again. I know it's a win and we should be celebrating, but we play like this the rest of the season, and we won't make playoffs. The total breakdowns and the push into a shell when we are winning are major faults.

We joke about the HakShell, but he, yet again, did it when up, and we got scored multiple. I just truely don't understand how he doesnt see it.

 

[deadhead]

We didn't get scored upon by the Hakshell, that's when they can't get the puck out of the D-zone and it cycles around until the other team eventually pops one.
That didn't not happen last night, the 3 goals were due to defensive breakdowns by our best defensemen and our goalies' inability to make one big save.

 

[Young Sandwich]

We didn't get scored upon by the Hakshell, that's when they can't get the puck out of the D-zone and it cycles around until the other team eventually pops one.
That didn't not happen last night, the 3 goals were due to defensive breakdowns by our best defensemen and our goalies' inability to make one big save.

This is the truth, but f*** you for making me like one of your posts

 

[flyershockey]

Pittsburgh trashed him in the POs last year. He is a defensive liability. He has been urged to alter his game, especially to fit situations, but he chooses not to do that. How often does Provorov have to cover for Ghost's gaffes and how does that affect Provy's game?

Provorov is doing plenty to negatively affect his own game right now. Ghost is the better player on that pairing. At least right now.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

The Flyers need to look at Ghost the same way that the Bruins view Krug. He's a plus offensively but a minus on defense. If TPTB can live with his weak defense, then putting him on the top pair is the way to go. Ghost's constant pushing the game forward does often put his partner in a tough spot when things go wrong.
Ghost, like Krug, is probably better suited for the second pair unless/until he picks up his defensive game. It's not like he can't do this. Timonen, like Ghost, wasn't blessed with the greatest stature but he used his stick to break up plays, clogged passing lanes and was judicious about when to make his rushes. Ghost needs to add a healthy dose of Timonen to his game.
Ghost is a talent but the coaches have to rein him in or he needs to do that himself. Neither of which happens often enough.

Do you honestly think Ghost is a minus defensively? Where would you rank his defensive abilities on this team?

Do you think there are any elite defenseman who are non minuses on defence?

 

[Beef Invictus]

“The best defense is a good offense” is an adage. It’s not necessarily a thing to study. It’s a tactic the army uses- coming from the book All Harvester Products Are War Products. It simply states that even in times of impending victory, slowing down is, possibly, the most dangerous move. Slowing down leaves the team vulnerable. We see that time in and time out with a passive shell. The book also shows that in fact the best defense is the one less used. For the flyers, this sentiment could do them wonders.
To bring that sentiment home with an example straight from the book: “would you rather fight a war in our land or your opponents?”

You’re right- we need good Dmen to play a shell game. Provorov and Ghost are good Dmen, they’re just in a small slump right now when talking about the defensive side of the puck. As of right now, Sanheim and Gudas are the best pairing for a shell game, however, coupling play and weakened stamina in the 3rd period is rarely a good thing.

You don't just need good dmen; you need good goalies, too. If anything you need a great goalie to play the shell Hakstol loves retreating into, because they will be tested, and they will be tested at the end of games specifically when they're getting fatigued.

That he has spent years running a shell with deficient goalies is just another indicator that the guy simply doesn't get it. Elliott and Neuvirth are always one cross ice pass away from losing their angle and letting one in, and when you ensure teams have as much time as possible to attack them, well, you get what we've seen for years now.

 

[Striiker]

Pittsburgh trashed him in the POs last year. He is a defensive liability. He has been urged to alter his game, especially to fit situations, but he chooses not to do that. How often does Provorov have to cover for Ghost's gaffes and how does that affect Provy's game?

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[deadhead]

So basically you're saying if you don't have talent nothing works?

I'm still waiting for someone to show me the study that being aggressive with the lead increases your probability of winning games.
Until then it's just unsubstantiated opinions.