5th Greatest all time

wetcoast

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Jagr has worked his way into my number five spot. He had a high peak, a long prime, and his longevity falls shy of only Howe among forwards. Save for that last season, he was effective the whole way. The longevity factor has kind of turned into the tiebreaker for me over some of the other strong candidates.

I think Jagr, Crosby and Hasek probably have the strongest cases for #5 but of course there are 3 Dmen in the running as well.
 
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Professor What

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I think Jagr, Crosby and Hasek probably have the strongest cases for #5 but of course there are 3 Dmen in the running as well.

I can't really see Crosby there so well. I have Beliveau, Morenz, and Mikita ahead of him, and to me, there's a small, but still noticeable gap after Mikita. Honestly, I'd have a hard time putting Mikita into the conversation here. Richard could have a potential claim. At left wing, if you consider either Hull or Ovechkin to be the greatest goal scorer of all time, that one of the two of them has a potential case based on the heavy significance of that title, very similar to Richard. I'd actually say that there are four potential defensemen, because I wouldn't argue too hard with any order someone put Bourque, Harvey, Lidstrom, and Shore in. Hasek's definitely in there if you look at a goalie that high, but I don't think he'd be the only one. There's such a logjam for the top goalie in history that depending on which one you chose, any one of a handful of them could slide in.

I have my personal choice, but even with as much debate as there is over how to rank the top four, I think there are so many guys vying for #5 that the next few spots are quite a bit tougher to rank.
 
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wetcoast

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I can't really see Crosby there so well. I have Beliveau, Morenz, and Mikita ahead of him, and to me, there's a small, but still noticeable gap after Mikita. Honestly, I'd have a hard time putting Mikita into the conversation here. Richard could have a potential claim. At left wing, if you consider either Hull or Ovechkin to be the greatest goal scorer of all time, that one of the two of them has a potential case based on the heavy significance of that title, very similar to Richard. I'd actually say that there are four potential defensemen, because I wouldn't argue too hard with any order someone put Bourque, Harvey, Lidstrom, and Shore in. Hasek's definitely in there if you look at a goalie that high, but I don't think he'd be the only one. There's such a logjam for the top goalie in history that depending on which one you chose, any one of a handful of them could slide in.

I have my personal choice, but even with as much debate as there is over how to rank the top four, I think there are so many guys vying for #5 that the next few spots are quite a bit tougher to rank.


One thing to consider for all the guys you list here is that Crosby has 15 straight seasons of pretty elite play.

just pick the season where his play was the worst of his career then look and see how good his production was in his so called worst year of play.

Then do the same for the others in their 15th best season of performance.

Its very hard for others to lay claim to this and its not like Crosby doesn't have other things going for him as well as that point.
 

Professor What

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One thing to consider for all the guys you list here is that Crosby has 15 straight seasons of pretty elite play.

just pick the season where his play was the worst of his career then look and see how good his production was in his so called worst year of play.

Then do the same for the others in their 15th best season of performance.

Its very hard for others to lay claim to this and its not like Crosby doesn't have other things going for him as well as that point.

Oh, I don't dispute his constant high level of play. Keep in mind, I do have him ranked sixth among all centers of all time. But I also look at Beliveau and see just as good, if not even a little bit better sustained excellence, and Morenz had a ridiculously high peak plus immense historical significance as arguably the sport's first true superstar and arguably the greatest player of the sport's first quarter-century. He was a major trailblazer. Mikita is closer, but I still really like what he accomplished in his accolades against some stout competition, was very well-rounded, and he was incredibly versatile in his play, as demonstrated by his ability to instantly turn off his mean streak and adapt a new demeanor on the ice.

Crosby's elite, and he's still got time. He very well may get there. It's also possible that once he's in the rearview mirror, and there's a little bit of historical perspective established, he could move up. But, at least in my mind, he's not there yet.
 
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daver

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Oh, I don't dispute his constant high level of play. Keep in mind, I do have him ranked sixth among all centers of all time. But I also look at Beliveau and see just as good, if not even a little bit better sustained excellence, and Morenz had a ridiculously high peak plus immense historical significance as arguably the sport's first true superstar and arguably the greatest player of the sport's first quarter-century. He was a major trailblazer. Mikita is closer, but I still really like what he accomplished in his accolades against some stout competition, was very well-rounded, and he was incredibly versatile in his play, as demonstrated by his ability to instantly turn off his mean streak and adapt a new demeanor on the ice.

Crosby's elite, and he's still got time. He very well may get there. It's also possible that once he's in the rearview mirror, and there's a little bit of historical perspective established, he could move up. But, at least in my mind, he's not there yet.

As measured by what?
 

bobbyking

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beliveau is always a good laugh, Crosby has a better track record in scoring races and missed all of his peak play. to have anybody's at 5 its hasek
 

The Panther

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One thing to consider for all the guys you list here is that Crosby has 15 straight seasons of pretty elite play.

just pick the season where his play was the worst of his career then look and see how good his production was in his so called worst year of play.

Then do the same for the others in their 15th best season of performance.
Crosby does have a lot of good seasons (if we ignore durability and full seasons, of course!). I dunno about 15 "elite" ones, though. In two of the past three seasons, he was outside the top-10 PPG producers. With him not getting any younger and the general decline of the Pens being (so I'd guess) imminent, it seems unlikely to me that he'd be back in the top-10, though you can't rule him out.

Anyway, his PPG finishes (again, this does include some half-completed seasons) are:
1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 6

That is really, really good by any standard. Now, those "1's" of his include a 41-game partial season and a 36-out-of-48 games season, but if he wasn't 1st anyway in those seasons he'd have been second or third at worst. So, however you slice it, he's been in the top-5 PPG players eleven times (top-6 twelve times).

Maybe it's not that unusual to find the dominant players of a given era having that many top-10 PPG finishes, but that many in the top-5 (and most of his are top 3) is quite rare indeed.

For comparison's sake (I'll leave the superhumans -- Wayne, Mario, Gordie -- out):

Top-5 PPG:
11 - Crosby
11 - Richard
10 - Mikita
9 - Béliveau
9 - Jagr
8 - Apps
8 - Esposito
8 - Hull
7 - Malkin
6 - Dionne
6 - Lafleur
6 - Lindsay
5 - Bossy
5 - Cowley
5 - Forsberg
5 - Lindros
5 - Ovechkin
5 - Sakic
4 - Kurri
4 - Trottier
4 - Yzerman
3 - Clarke

(Howie Morenz was 8 x top-5 in goals. I don't think we can fairly compare "points" or "assists" totals from back then. I won't even try with Frank Nighbor...)


Top-3 PPG:
9 - Béliveau
9 - Crosby
9 - Jagr
9 - Mikita
8 - Esposito
7 - Richard
6 - Hull
6 - Lafleur
6 - Malkin
5 - Lindsay
4 - Apps
4 - Cowley
4 - Dionne
4 - Lindros
3 - Forsberg
3 - Ovechkin
3 - Sakic
2 - Bossy
2 - Kurri
2 - Messier
2 - Trottier
1 - Yzerman

(Hope I didn't overlook anyone too obvious on these lists!) So, the point is, looking at top-5 and even really elite top-3 point producers over the League's history -- and with the exceptions of the best three forwards ever [see below], and he's matched one of those guys in top-5's -- Crosby is equal to basically anyone in the NHL's history. Those are some pretty awesome players he's above.

The only reasons I personally don't start throwing Crosby way up into the top-10 all time players lists are:
1) Too many missed games in his prime. The good news is he can still more-or-less compensate for this if he demonstrates exceptional longevity at a high level. So far, he's looking good.
2) Slight lack of domination in key moments, notably in NHL Cup Finals. I mean, he's won three Cups (and one legit and one bogus Conn Smythe), so nothing to apologize for, but if we're talking the top-5 or whatever forwards of all time I need to see a bit more elite-level performance on the biggest stages.

Maybe my #2 is a bit unfair, as the goal is to win games and championships and not to pile up stats... but these are the super tough standards to get your name up there with the top 10 guys ever.

His consistency is really impressive.


By the way, here's those other guys I left off the lists above:

Top-5:
19 - Howe
14 - Gretzky
11 - Lemieux

Top-3:
14 - Gretzky
11 - Howe
11 - Lemieux
 

Professor What

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As measured by what?

Ten all-star team selections, including six first-team nods. Twice leading the league in goals and assists and winning a scoring title. He twice scored 40 goals back when that was unthinkable. Ten seasons in the top 10 in goals, eleven seasons in the top 10 in assists, and twelve in the top 10 in points. He won two Hart Trophies and had eight top three finishes in a career that significantly overlapped with Howe, Richard, Hull, and Mikita. He also had a tremendous playoff record. I think there's little question that he would have won the Conn Smythe in 1956 had it been around back then. So, literally, by any measure, Beliveau has a nearly unmatched longterm record of excellence. You don't have to agree with overwhelming sentiments in surveys like this (I certainly don't always agree with it), but there's a reason Beliveau almost always comes up third among centers when people who know what they're doing make rankings. He has an incredibly strong record. The exact rank is fair game for debate, but the career is unquestionable.
 

daver

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Ten all-star team selections, including six first-team nods. Twice leading the league in goals and assists and winning a scoring title. He twice scored 40 goals back when that was unthinkable. Ten seasons in the top 10 in goals, eleven seasons in the top 10 in assists, and twelve in the top 10 in points. He won two Hart Trophies and had eight top three finishes in a career that significantly overlapped with Howe, Richard, Hull, and Mikita. He also had a tremendous playoff record. I think there's little question that he would have won the Conn Smythe in 1956 had it been around back then. So, literally, by any measure, Beliveau has a nearly unmatched longterm record of excellence. You don't have to agree with overwhelming sentiments in surveys like this (I certainly don't always agree with it), but there's a reason Beliveau almost always comes up third among centers when people who know what they're doing make rankings. He has an incredibly strong record. The exact rank is fair game for debate, but the career is unquestionable.

I think it is safe to say that comparing All-Star nods from a six team league to a 31 team league is a futile endeavour. It's about as useful as comparing raw points.
 

Professor What

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I think it is safe to say that comparing All-Star nods from a six team league to a 31 team league is a futile endeavour. It's about as useful as comparing raw points.

I don't entirely agree with that. I agree to the extent that there was a smaller talent pool since rapid expansion hadn't yet demanded a larger number of players. Where I don't agree is the fact that in order to make it to the NHL and especially to stick there in the Original Six era was exceptionally difficult. I'm sure all of us have had more than one gripe with certain all-star selections over the years, but when a guy in any era is constantly being selected as a first- or second-team all-star, that's a pretty good sign that he was consistently, at the very least a candidate as, one of the two best players at his position. I don't care if you're in a six team league or a 31 team league. That's impressive.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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I think it is safe to say that comparing All-Star nods from a six team league to a 31 team league is a futile endeavour. It's about as useful as comparing raw points.

it isnt though.

The depth of the league has nothing to do with the quality of the top 5%. The top 5-10 players per position were no worse then than now because of 6 teams vs 30. More players doesnt = better elite talent or even more elite talent. It just means more average players

Case in point, 5 of the 6 teams from the late 50s/early 60s have their starting goalie in the HOF: Sawchuk, Bower, Worsley, Hall, Giacomin

Take a look at Bealiveau's competition for those AS nods and tell me its worse than what Crosby faced.

1965: 8 HOF centers (Bealiveau, Espo, H Richard, Ratelle, Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, Keon)
 
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bobbyking

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You'd probably need to explain this.
to further add, the American and European talent was super weak in the original 6 era. if you think Europe and Americas best wouldn't dominate back then the way they have since the 90s you're delusional.

edit
 
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Regal

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it isnt though.

The depth of the league has nothing to do with the quality of the top 5%. The top 5-10 players per position were no worse then than now because of 6 teams vs 30. More players doesnt = better elite talent or even more elite talent. It just means more average players

Case in point, 5 of the 6 teams from the late 50s/early 60s have their starting goalie in the HOF: Sawchuk, Bower, Worsley, Hall, Giacomin

Take a look at Bealiveau's competition for those AS nods and tell me its worse than what Crosby faced.

1965: 8 HOF centers (Bealiveau, Espo, H Richard, Ratelle, Mikita, Ullman, Delvecchio, Keon)

There's a difference between talent and opportunity though. More teams means more top line caliber players getting the minutes needed to put up a big season. It's possible a player who isn't getting the best wingers or the top PP time on a team in a 6 team league could have a big year in a 30 team league where he gets ample time as his teams best player. Just look at how well some players excelled with opportunity in Vegas. William Karlsson has a 3rd place goal finish that affects the finishes of other players that season. That almost certainly doesn't happen in a smaller league. The same can hold true for seasons worthy of all star selections.

With regards to Crosby, he lost the 1st team all star spot to Henrik Sedin in 09-10 (wrongly, imo), but Henrik, while a clear top line center in a 30 team league, had never finished top 10 in points going into the year or even received a single all star center vote despite being in his late 20s. In a 6 team league, he's almost certainly not the number 1 center on his team going into the year and possibly not even on the top PP unit. Maybe he would have worked his way up with his play over the course of the year, but it's doubtful he has the same Art Ross season in a smaller league.
 
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buffalowing88

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to further add, the American and European talent was super weak in the original 6 era. if you think Europe and Americas best wouldn't make the NHL back then and dominate the way they have since the 90s you're delusional.

I think that we are getting into mythology when we talk about Soviet players from, say, 1940-1960. Saying that the talent pool was "super weak" from NA, for example, is obviously wrong. Providing context and suggesting why players from different areas would have been better would allow me personally to make a better assessment. I don't want to sound harsh at all, but as I work on the top-200 rankings, for instance, I don't have a single Eastern European player from that era. Not to say that they weren't great, but there is just absolutely no evidence for us to make a clear assessment on any of them.
 

Perennial

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That is really, really good by any standard. Now, those "1's" of his include a 41-game partial season and a 36-out-of-48 games season, but if he wasn't 1st anyway in those seasons he'd have been second or third at worst. So, however you slice it, he's been in the top-5 PPG players eleven times (top-6 twelve times).

Crosby's PPG average during that 41 game season was 1.61...

Daniel Sedin was 2nd in the league at 1.27

That's a 28 point difference over 82 games...


And his 36 game season he averaged 1.56 points per game

St. Louis was 2nd that season with 1.25

That's a difference of 25.5 points over an 82 game season...


Regardless if the sample size was only half a season, dominance to that degree deserves full credit, IMO
 
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Theokritos

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to further add, the American and European talent was super weak in the original 6 era. if you think Europe and Americas best wouldn't dominate back then the way they have since the 90s you're delusional.

Please go ahead and tell us which European players you think would have dominated the NHL prior to 1967?
 

The Panther

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Crosby's PPG average during that 41 game season was 1.61...

Daniel Sedin was 2nd in the league at 1.27

That's a 28 point difference over 82 games...


And his 36 game season he averaged 1.56 points per game

St. Louis was 2nd that season with 1.25

That's a difference of 25.5 points over an 82 game season...


Regardless if the sample size was only half a season, dominance to that degree deserves full credit, IMO
Oh, I wasn't saying he doesn't deserve credit in this kind of long-term sample. Quite the opposite. I just point out his missing some key time in his prime, which is ideally something a top-10 player of all time wouldn't have. But, as I said, Crosby may make up for that with longevity.

Now, if it's a different story if we're talking about the top PPG per season. That's where I won't accept somebody having the "best PPG" if they played 40 games. I don't know what the min. games has to be -- maybe 75% of games played? -- but half the games isn't enough, no matter how far ahead of the competition you are.
 
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The Panther

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to further add, the American and European talent was super weak in the original 6 era. if you think Europe and Americas best wouldn't dominate back then the way they have since the 90s you're delusional.

edit
In my opinion, if your method of comparing current players to historical ones is to determine that current players 'time-machined' to the past would dominate, then you're delusional.
 
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crosbyshow

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The fifth best that I have seen is Sergei Makarov.

Easily the 3rd best player in the 80s after 99 et 66.

I have seen him beat Larry Robinson so easily and Ray Bourque as well.

Unfortunately he arrved in the NHL at 31 years old...but he was so dominant against the best Canadiens players in 81, 84 and 87
 
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Merya

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It's going to be Ovi in couple years so don't hurt your heads pondering it now.
Jagr and Hasek are the obvious current answers, but here NA homerism is king,
 

The Panther

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It's going to be Ovi in couple years so don't hurt your heads pondering it now.
Jagr and Hasek are the obvious current answers, but here NA homerism is king,
By consensus, it's definitely never going to be Ovechkin. He can score 1000 NHL goals... and he still won't be 5th.

Needless to say, Ovechkin is an all-time great, but he's not the kind of player who is an all-around talent, dominating the ice with his presence or skill. He is Rocket Richard and Bobby Hull of the 200os, with a bit less playoff heroics than Richard and a bit less playmaking than Hull. In my opinion, he's clearly below Jagr in the forward pecking order, and he's not even the best forward of his own era.
 

wetcoast

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Oh, I wasn't saying he doesn't deserve credit in this kind of long-term sample. Quite the opposite. I just point out his missing some key time in his prime, which is ideally something a top-10 player of all time wouldn't have. But, as I said, Crosby may make up for that with longevity.

Jean Beliveau also missed a lot of time in the NHL and he didn't have a full season until age 23.

Crosby by the same age (23) was miles ahead of Jean and I don't think people actually have done a very good direct comparison season by season between the 2 players.

Harvey wasn't missing time but also didn't break out until age 27.

Orr and Mario of course missed tons of time considering their virtually untouchable Big 4 status as well.

Now, if it's a different story if we're talking about the top PPG per season. That's where I won't accept somebody having the "best PPG" if they played 40 games. I don't know what the min. games has to be -- maybe 75% of games played? -- but half the games isn't enough, no matter how far ahead of the competition you are.

2 points here

- Crosby has already played more games both in the regular season and playoffs than Mario and Orr.
- in the 2010-2011 Crosby example even if we lowball his career PPG in the 5 seasons before he easily wins the Art Ross and Hart in that year.

Crosby at this point has an extremely valid case for the 5th best player of all time.
 

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