Prospect Info: 5th - 137: Wings select Jordan Sambrook (D)

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Who in Grand Rapids is having their development stagnated?

The more important question claypool is, what dmen are being developed in grand rapids for the long-erm success of the detroit red wings?

Five of the starting six are old non red wing draftees.

Is the point of GR to develop guys for the Swiss or German leagues?

 

[Pavels Dog]

The more important question claypool is, what dmen are being developed in grand rapids for the long-erm success of the detroit red wings?

Five of the starting six are old non red wing draftees.

Is the point of GR to develop guys for the Swiss or German leagues?

Hronek and Hicketts.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Hronek and Hicketts.

Okay so two of the starting six dmen?

And icetime distribution both ES and PP for them versus the other four non future red wings?

My only point is this.. we're drafting more players last year, this year and next year then we ever have before which means mathematically more guys are going to hit grand rapids, not all but certainly more then ever before. They're going to need spots and icetime to develop. Of course you want competition no disagreement, but more importantly for us right now is opportunity.

If we don't we will continue to spin our wheels when it comes to dmen.

Time to change things up just a little bit. Not drastic.

 

[Claypool]

Okay so two of the starting six dmen?

I’d say that’s probably the average for most teams.

 

[Pavels Dog]

My only point is this.. we're drafting more players last year, this year and next year then we ever have before which means mathematically more guys are going to hit grand rapids, not all but certainly more then ever before. They're going to need spots and icetime to develop. Of course you want competition no disagreement, but more importantly for us right now is opportunity.

If we don't we will continue to spin our wheels when it comes to dmen.

Basically all we're looking for is the kind of d-men that either bypass the AHL completely or demand icetime with their play. If some 3rd-pair ceiling kid is unable to crack the lineup in the AHL, so be it. It's more important that we actually find guys that that are able to outplay Brian Lashoff. If we get rid of Lashoff because prospects can't outplay him, the problem really isn't Lashoff..

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

I’d say that’s probably the average for most teams.

Most other lottery teams?

And they also have to have our exact track record of drafting and developing top three dmen over last twenty years for it to be an actual comparable.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Basically all we're looking for is the kind of d-men that either bypass the AHL completely or demand icetime with their play. If some 3rd-pair ceiling kid is unable to crack the lineup in the AHL, so be it. It's more important that we actually find guys that that are able to outplay Brian Lashoff. If we get rid of Lashoff because prospects can't outplay him, the problem really isn't Lashoff..

So you feel Hronek and cholowski aren' who we're looking for?

 

[Hen Kolland]

I don't think that Nelson is holding these kids back in favor of the veterans just because. If Vili was good enough, I would have to believe that he would have earned his spot because Renouf, Lashoff, McIlrath, Russo, Hicketts are all so insignificant. The fact that we don't have the young players to kick the door down and supplant career AHLers would indicate that all we have coming up through the ranks are players that will be career AHLers. Sure, maybe a Saarijarvi needs to adapt to NA hockey and develops a little bit, but most of the time these 3rd round and later draft picks are inconsequential. Either you get lucky and it becomes more apparent they have a future, like how people think Pope will have a chance to make the Wings next year, or you just let the players kind of phase out.

This is why my stance has been advocating moving up in the draft with a target. If we don't have the prospects that can demand playing time, then we need to find them. That being said, we are entirely over-saturated with defensemen that don't have a major role in the organization, and that is horrible asset management. You could have cut 2 or 3 defensemen coming into this year and be in the exact same spot. I don't think everything needs to be handed to prospects, but at the same time we don't need to keep redundant AHL players that don't have an impact in serving as a mentor or a planned role with the organization down the road.

 

[Pavels Dog]

So you feel Hronek and cholowski aren' who we're looking for?

Well Hronek didn't struggle to get icetime, and we don't know if Cholo will spend any extended time in the AHL yet. Both are imo in the category of prospect we need more of. And ideally we can add 1 or 2 prospects of an even higher caliber. If we draft D-men in the top 10 we shouldn't need to worry about their icetime at the AHL level unless something goes wrong.

 

[Winger98]

Who in Grand Rapids is having their development stagnated?

Pick one. Remove one older player and it forces coaches to rework their icetime, putting guys into larger roles and forcing them to either grow their games or wilt and die. Remove one guy from Detroit's lineup and Russo gets a look. Hicketts gets a sooner look. Maybe Hronek gets a look. What was the last D to get a serious look - and then make the team the following season - before their 22nd birthday? It wasn't Kindl or Smith. It wasn't XO. It wasn't Jensen. It wasn't Sproul. It wasn't Kronwall. It wasn't Ericsson. It might have been Brian Lashoff, which is just brutal.

What was the last blueline prospect that just met expectations? Using this method of leaving guys in GR until they are 23/their waiver exemptions are over, has it benefited the Wings?

 

[Claypool]

What was the last D to get a serious look - and then make the team the following season - before their 22nd birthday?

Who cares about their age? They didn't get a serious look because they weren't good enough.

Most other lottery teams?

And they also have to have our exact track record of drafting and developing top three dmen over last twenty years for it to be an actual comparable.

You're right, they've been too busy winning more games than any other team the last quarter century. There is no comparable.

 

[Pavels Dog]

What was the last blueline prospect that just met expectations? Using this method of leaving guys in GR until they are 23/their waiver exemptions are over, has it benefited the Wings?

Our drafting has sucked. Unfortunately. Guys were left in GR because they were simply not good. Hronek having the best AHL rookie year since Kronwall tells us 2 things: Hronek is good, and our D drafting in between Kronwall and 2015 has not been.

 

[Winger98]

Our drafting has sucked. Unfortunately. Guys were left in GR because they were simply not good. Hronek having the best AHL rookie year since Kronwall tells us 2 things: Hronek is good, and our D drafting in between Kronwall and 2015 has not been.

Which is an argument I can be fine with, I don't necessarily agree with entirely as I still think it's bad that arguably no one has lived up to their expectations, but if our drafting has sucked it's sucked. That should be held up as a big negative on Holland. I know people will come up with excuses with Nill or whoever, but Holland is the guy who has final say on everything.

I'm curious how next season will shape up. Will we see Hronek/Cholo in Detroit for an extended period? I doubt it, personally. But it would be good to see.

 

[ricky0034]

Our drafting has sucked. Unfortunately. Guys were left in GR because they were simply not good. Hronek having the best AHL rookie year since Kronwall tells us 2 things: Hronek is good, and our D drafting in between Kronwall and 2015 has not been.

I have a tough time fully buying that,it hasn't been great sure but there's been an awful lot of prospects over the years that have looked promising in juniors or college

not expecting a top pairing guy out of what we've had to work with or anything like that but it's awful hard to swallow the idea that it's just a coincidence that the Wings haven't even managed to find a second pairing guy out of all of them

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Who cares about their age? They didn't get a serious look because they weren't good enough.



You're right, they've been too busy winning more games than any other team the last quarter century. There is no comparable.

Right

But now things are different so perhaps a new approach should follow suit don't ya think?

Is Hronek seriously the only dmen we have drafted that is worthy of playing limited minutes in the AHL? If so wow..

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Our drafting has sucked. Unfortunately. Guys were left in GR because they were simply not good. Hronek having the best AHL rookie year since Kronwall tells us 2 things: Hronek is good, and our D drafting in between Kronwall and 2015 has not been.

Isn' it possible that the development system sucked just as much

Is it solely just the scouting and mgmt team that sucked?

 

[BinCookin]

...but if our drafting has sucked it's sucked. That should be held up as a big negative on Holland. I know people will come up with excuses with Nill or whoever, but Holland is the guy who has final say on everything....

I would argue that considering our draft position, we have drafted well. See my very detailed thread on drafting.

 

[Frk It]

I would argue that considering our draft position, we have drafted well. See my very detailed thread on drafting.

We are talking about specifically defenseman here, though. I suspect if you separated out the forwards and defenseman, you would see a notable difference. We were very good at drafting forwards in later rounds.

 

[BinCookin]

Notable names by my scoring:

XO -42
Sproul -73
Marchenko +101
Jensen +96
Smith -115
Kindl -430
Quincey +170
Meech +121
Ericsson +630

Its not so much that our choices are that bad... its just we should have probably made more than 10 ish D picks in the 15 years for 2001-2015

Remember my scoring takes into account the draft position by design. We are not screwing up our picks as much as we just don't draft D men much at all.

Maybe our next few years of results will start showing good or bad D men drafting, as we have picked more recently.

 

[Frk It]

Notable names by my scoring:

XO -42
Sproul -73
Marchenko +101
Jensen +96
Smith -115
Kindl -430
Quincey +170
Meech +121
Ericsson +630

Its not so much that our choices are that bad... its just we should have probably made more than 10 ish D picks in the 15 years for 2001-2015

Remember my scoring takes into account the draft position by design. We are not screwing up our picks as much as we just don't draft D men much at all.

Maybe our next few years of results will start showing good or bad D men drafting, as we have picked more recently.

I suppose some of it is opportunity cost. But if your system says we have done well drafting defenseman, you might want to re-evaluate your system.

 

[Claypool]

Right

But now things are different so perhaps a new approach should follow suit don't ya think?

Is Hronek seriously the only dmen we have drafted that is worthy of playing limited minutes in the AHL? If so wow..

Ken Holland already stated they'll be moving more younger players on the roster sooner than before. You're literally complaining about nothing.

Hronek earned his ice time through hard work and led all defensemen on Grand Rapids in scoring. He'll be on the main club next season.

 

[Winger98]

Another problem is that our the best D we drafted is a guy we drafted dead last. Compile the scores for the guys we drafted in the second round or higher and it's an ugly sight.

 

[BinCookin]

I suppose some of it is opportunity cost. But if your system says we have done well drafting defenseman, you might want to re-evaluate your system.

"done well" ... No.

Done badly.. also no.

More like we have spent so few picks, the number is close to break even. (or meets expectations)

 

[BinCookin]

Another problem is that our the best D we drafted is a guy we drafted dead last. Compile the scores for the guys we drafted in the second round or higher and it's an ugly sight.

Concur. If we remove Ericsson, the main scoring pieces are Kindl and Smith both negative... Basically when people say "15" years. Its more like "2 years worth of 1st rounders, that made the NHL, but were not great". Considereing they were drafted late in 1st round... Our shitty draft position is a significant reason for our score. Also its more like we just dont draft defensemen as opposed to "we are bad at it". But since i didnt break it down by position... i cant say our overall score vs otheer teams.

 

[SCD]

Detroit has always had a high percentage of it's roster made up of it's draftees. So saying it sucks might be a little harsh, but certainly could be better. We certainly have not been drafting many late round gems as of late.

Regarding the defenseman drafted from 2000-2015 in the first two rounds (Kronwall, Kindl, Smith, Oullet, and Sproul), Sproul would be the biggest disappointment. After the second round, ( Ericsson, Meech, Quincey, Jensen, and Marchenko) are the only draftees to have played greater than 100 NHL games.

It is tough to be too critical on the "system" in the development of defenseman when so few have been drafted in the first two rounds. Unfortunately, Ericsson and Quincey would be considered late round gems because of the number of games played.

It will be interesting to see how Cholowski and Lindstrom pan out when evaluating the systems ability to draft and develop defenseman. So few impact defenseman (1-4) are drafted beyond the second round, it is really a crap shoot and tough to blame the failure of the system in development. No defenseman drafted after Ouellet in 2011 became a stud (although it would have nice to draft Kucherov with that pick). Detroit has to concentrate on drafting defense with at least two, if not three, of its first four picks this year.

Regarding the logjam on defense, they have to find the right mix of career AHL players and prospects. First, they have to ice a competitive team for their audience. Second, they need older players that can mentor the prospects. Lashoff has been given credit for Hronek's improvement the second half of the year. Cleary has been given credit for Bertuzzi's development.