The GR blue line logjam is the story of the Detroit organization at the moment: a good idea taken to an absurd extreme. Yes we need veteran defensemen in GR to help out prospects on both sides of the puck. At the same time, we need to give our prospects realistic opportunities to earn meaningful ice time to develop. This front office just has no sense of balance or proportion at the moment. We see it everywhere: drafting, contracts, roster construction, GR, etc.
Prospect Info: 5th - 137: Wings select Jordan Sambrook (D)
- Thread starter Debrincat93
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I guess I will just say this
A. What they have been doing simply hadent worked well for reasons x, y and z so why not try a new but not drastic approach
B. We have, are and will be drafting more players then ever before and higher in every round so we will and should hope for more of them hitting grand rapids. We will need to anticipate this not just react to it.
I will leave it at that
ricky0034
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what exactly the solution should be is a matter of opinion but I think it's flat out delusional at this point to think that the Wings don't have a serious issue with developing defensemen
they've been doing pretty much the same thing for a long time now and we've seen prospect after prospect after prospect go from looking promising in juniors or college or whatever to working their way up to the AHL/NHL level and amounting to flat out nothing when it's all said and done
obviously a lot of these guys are late picks and have holes in their game and such so we shouldn't expect them all to hit but we're far beyond coincidence at this point,forget finding a top pairing guy the Wings can't even manage to find a second pairing guy
I feel like pretty much our only hope at this point is drafting some top 5 guys and them just flat out having so much talent that not even the Wings can manage to ruin them
they've been doing pretty much the same thing for a long time now and we've seen prospect after prospect after prospect go from looking promising in juniors or college or whatever to working their way up to the AHL/NHL level and amounting to flat out nothing when it's all said and done
obviously a lot of these guys are late picks and have holes in their game and such so we shouldn't expect them all to hit but we're far beyond coincidence at this point,forget finding a top pairing guy the Wings can't even manage to find a second pairing guy
I feel like pretty much our only hope at this point is drafting some top 5 guys and them just flat out having so much talent that not even the Wings can manage to ruin them
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Sorry man that is life. Again I have watched a lot of games at this level, I have spent considerable time around an AHL team and I understand why they are built the way they are. It is for the betterment of the prospect and both organizations, but like almost anywhere in life it is adapt or die. You need to do the things that get you and keep you in the lineup. I like Vili Saarjarvi but he is a very poor defensive player that is getting a crash course in how to play North American professional hockey. Tons of film, leveraged minutes and establishing his pro career. This isn't some big injustice. You know what else he should get is an extra month hopefully of playoff time, is a bigger chance to continue to work on his craft and not just sitting at home because the Wings and Griffins built a team and play to win at that level.
I think we have a myriad of issues defensively. But it isn't the logjam in Grand Rapids causing this. We lack talent defensively, we have mediocre players. Jill Nill and Joe McDonnell apparently like really lousy D-man, hey look at the guy they took in front of Larkin. Holland needs to do a better job of getting a scouting department that identifies this area of need. To that end I have said over and over I would have turned to Paul Fenton as a GM next year. That didn't happen.
The lack of talent is why I wasn't enamored with signing Russo, I wasn't a huge fan of signing Renouf for that reason. I don't care if they do away with Jordan Sambrook for that reason. Those are the guys I want gone, I don't need to see them try to be better than Jensen or XO, they aren't all that great. We need to collectively identify talent that easily supplants these. Which is why I have pointed out I expect Cholowski to draw in the lineup in a hurry and Todd Nelson said nothing different by the way. Hronek quickly adapted and earned more time. That is how that works, that isn't broken. What we need are better players that knock people out of spots. We don't have those right now, that Joe Hicketts even fascinates people is how horrifying our situation is on the back-end.
But I am never going to champion running the Grand Rapids Griffins as a Detroit Red Wings play thing alone. I think frankly it is a stupid way to run an AHL team and to setup an organization. They would also need to step up and outright buy their AHL affiliate if this is the goal as that is the case with the AHL teams that do run in this fashion and I have seen those teams in person, I don't think it helps most guys develop. They get beat up and beat down with a lot of them washing out. We don't know as much about them because we follow our guys. The reality is most prospects fail, we have been particularly bad at this on the back-end. But getting rid of XO to get Russo minutes to get Vili minutes isn't the earth shattering shift we need. We need to focus on the talent we are bringing/drafting in the first place. Our better young d-man even those that fizzled in Detroit haven't struggled to take ice time down there quickly. I am not willing to accept that excuse.
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You could rinse and repeat this argument for every single season for the past ten years and it wouldn't have changed anything. And you keep going back to the falsehood that managing the prospect pipeline better in any way makes the Griffins a "Red Wings play thing." You know that's not what is being said.
You expect our highest drafted D in years to draw into GR immediately. Yeah, he should. It's also not developing anything, it's just saying that the Wings suck enough to draft higher. The guys coming in are better out the gate, but that doesn't reflect anything towards the Wings ability to foster a player's progress. The fact that you have to keep going back to watching a bunch of AHL rather that touting our system's successes says something about the system you're pushing to keep, and it's not good.
But you're right in that we'll just get naturally more talented guys the more Detroit fails. Apparently, that's what it takes for the Wings development system to succeed here.
I don't know how a different approach to our development system would have worked on XO. Or Smith. Or Kindl. Or Sproul. Or Marchenko. Or any number of D who have come up over the years. Maybe we would have just been able to deal Kindl off for a 3rd instead of a 6th, or Marchenko for anything rather than losing him on waivers. But even minimal gains would be better than what we've ended up with.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Alright how about this. This is a system they use in Nashville. Do you like that system?
The Wings aren't the only one that invest heavily in their AHL infrastructure. My point was they need better talent. But trying to remove AHL veterans isn't the way to do this. It isn't a GR system, Brian Lashoff being a leader down there and playing the role he does isn't why Vili didn't get as much time and Jordan Sambrook might not get a contract.
Yes I expect talent to win out at all levels. Now that talent needs to start getting better.
The Zetterberg Era
Ball Hockey Sucks
Article on the Athletic today so it has the paywall, but it has to do with a big discussion we have in this thread.
Hronek on the biggest strides he has taken since January and learning defense, credits... Brian Lashoff for taking him under his wing and making him a better player. Watching film with him and teaching him all that he can to get more out of his talent.
Those vets on the AHL teams can be crucial at times to a players development, that is why I am a big fan of having them around. I know it isn't as fun as just a team of prospects, but does this message happen without it? You can hope, but I like that they have guys down there to lean on and teach them. I think it is an important part of the process.
Hronek on the biggest strides he has taken since January and learning defense, credits... Brian Lashoff for taking him under his wing and making him a better player. Watching film with him and teaching him all that he can to get more out of his talent.
Those vets on the AHL teams can be crucial at times to a players development, that is why I am a big fan of having them around. I know it isn't as fun as just a team of prospects, but does this message happen without it? You can hope, but I like that they have guys down there to lean on and teach them. I think it is an important part of the process.
Redder Winger
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Articles like that make me vomit.
Athletic is turning into a puffpiece shithole.
I bought for real journalism. Not fanboy prozac for anxious fans.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
So you’re heading into screaming ”fake news!” about everything you don’t like territory now?
cjm502
Bingo Bango!
Have you considered sending the writers a message, because I doubt anyone on here cares.
Redder Winger
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I've sent Craig Custance a message about it. He's really backed off his initial start, when he was willing to offer objective criticism of the Red Wings.
The Athletic will fold within two years unless they get real.
If we wanted pablum, we could get it free from Mlive, Freep etc.
Redder Winger
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Just to keep things in perspective, Saarijarvi played 42 Ahl games and 52 total games. That is by no means a wasted season. Any prospect worth a damn will get ample opportunities. And you need depth for injuries anyway so I’m not seeing much of this “logjam”.
Green and Renouf are FAs while Cholo, and Sulak are entering the ranks. Potentially others like Holoway, Sambrook or a UFA (Green or other?) as well. That means we will have 13-16 guys under contract plus a couple of AHL guys like McCarron splitting time between GR and Toledo.
We certainly need to keep improving but baring some unforeseen circumstances we have an appropriate amount of depth on the back side.
Even if an opportunity presents itself to add someone with significant upside via the draft, free agency or a trade anyone of XO, Jensen or Russo can easily be bought out or traded to open a spot.
Green and Renouf are FAs while Cholo, and Sulak are entering the ranks. Potentially others like Holoway, Sambrook or a UFA (Green or other?) as well. That means we will have 13-16 guys under contract plus a couple of AHL guys like McCarron splitting time between GR and Toledo.
We certainly need to keep improving but baring some unforeseen circumstances we have an appropriate amount of depth on the back side.
Even if an opportunity presents itself to add someone with significant upside via the draft, free agency or a trade anyone of XO, Jensen or Russo can easily be bought out or traded to open a spot.
Redder Winger
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People complain this team needs to draft more defensemen.
People then complain the team has too many defensemen in the system
People then complain the team has too many defensemen in the system
People are complaining that a 5th round draft pick, that's a long shot to make the NHL, won't be gifted 25 minutes a night in Grand Rapids next year as a rookie.
Redder Winger
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Dude.
Guys playing ahead of drafted defenseman Saarijarvi, Age 20
Russo - undrafted. Age 25
Renouf - undrafted. Age 23
McIlrath - Undrafted (by Detroit). Age 25
Hicketts - Undrafted. Age 21
Lashoff - Undrafted. Age 27.
Pavels Dog
Registered User
So, we can't move on from Jensen because we need Brian Lashoff to be a leader in GR. You can have vets in GR without stagnating the development pool. And if you want to say these kids just aren't good enough, then we shouldn't be keeping them around anyway. Keep Lashoff and McIlrath if you want. Ditch XO. Ditch Jensen. Ditch Russo. They are nothing.
If you do any one of those things, you get to keep your Forever AHLer Leader, and you get more flexibility with your lineup. You keep treating this as some bizarre overhaul of the system that would ditch everyone over the age of 20.
I expect more talented players to progress more quickly. I expect our system to get the most out of guys who are less talented. Our system doesn't really seem to do the latter at all for our blueliners.
Awhile back someone here had some numbers on the likelihood of a defenseman making the NHL and staying there after they were 21/22 were pretty bad. If guys can't make that jump until they are 23, 24...26...it's not likely they are going to be anything to worry about at the NHL level. We should have just dealt XO, Jensen and Russo by now, signed some cheap NHL D on a year to year basis and then dealing those guys at the deadline, too. We're not losing anything from moving on from these kids.
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