Post-Game Talk: #59: FLYERS 3 at Red Wings 1, Sunday, Feb. 17, 2019, 6:00 pm ET

Rich Nixon

No Prior Knowledge of "Flyers"
Jul 11, 2006
14,941
18,809
Key Biscayne
He's currently our best defensemen and until that changes he's definitely more important than the rest. If you want to say that one day someone like Sanheim or Myers will be better, than you're being EXTREMELY optimistic and at the very least I'd say we need to wait until that actually happens before deciding he's expendable or "least necessary". Same reason we can't trade Couturier just because we have Patrick and Frost.

Also, by "irreplaceable" I didn't simply mean rarest or most unique. I meant we don't have anyone who is good enough to fill his shoes (quality-wise). We can't replace the value he brings to this team, hence "irreplaceable".

And I say that as someone who loves our other defensemen, as proven by how often I say we don't need to add a top 4 guy. We have the pieces to be a great team, they're already pretty damn good and guys like Sanheim and Myers are far from their peak. But none of them are on Ghosts level right now so it blows my mind when I see people saying they make him expendable or that they can replace him already. The chances that any of them ever have a year as good as what he's already accomplished is very small, so it's ridiculously premature for some to think he's already someone we can afford to trade. On top of that, he's being consistently ****ed around by coaches and so often paired with downright trash players. He's playing in situations that absolutely limit a players ability, so what he's already done isn't even the best I can imagine him doing.

Well this is interesting...I obviously am of the opinion the team does need another top 4 guy, short-term, because none of the youngsters are yet as good as Gostisbehere, and I'd prefer to be running only one of Sanheim/Myers in the top 4 for at least next season...and then being able to tailor minutes to everyone's best usage (as in, Ghost gets to eat a lot of power play time, Provorov doesn't have to get ground into dust, etc.)

And yes, I agree that Ghost is hard to replace today, because he's one of the best on the defense right now. This current defense isn't very good, but that's not the point. It's that going forward, there isn't much that's going to change about his game, he'll always be this cool unique weapon with good hands and passing all over the ice, he's 26. So today, sure, he's an important player by mere default of being in the league for more than 60 games. But he'll still be Ghost while Sanheim and Myers grow into extremely valuable defenders, and the defense will advance more from them reaching some semblance of their potential than anything else. Does that make sense?
 

Magua

Doer of Hoffific Things
Apr 25, 2016
37,169
154,081
Huron of the Lakes
Funny how context matters too

Under Gordon:
Ghost 51.3
Gudas 50
AMac 48.9
Provy 48
Sanheim 47.2
Hagg 42.8
Myers 36.8
Folin 35.5

Under Hakstol:
Sanheim 55.4
Gudas 54.5
Folin 53.5
Ghost 51.4
AMac 50.3
Provy 48.3
Hagg 47.4

Context does matter. Like the person you responded to being a known critic of Corsi, while never acknowledging other metrics, while simultaneously just using it to try to prove HIS point. Want more context? Provorov-Sanheim has done equal or better than basically every other Provorov-xxx pairing this season. So, the idea Sanheim was on the 3rd pair because he could not see any more usage against better players is a load of hogwash. Hagg is doing WORSE since being removed from the top pair. Ironically, that poster criticized Sanheim at every stop, while simultaneously lifting up Hagger.

We have a large sample of Travo being a positive playdriver. Know what we don't have a sample of? His present partner being one. None of this voids that Sanheim probably shouldn't be on the top pair, and he's put in an awkward spot on his off-side. But he is holding his own. And the sheer sight of him actually playing is wonderful. Myth dispelled.

Oh, look, Ghost's magic Corsi seems to be pretty good though. Oh, what was that? That same person criticizes him and wants him traded? We can't win!
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
My position that Corsi is overrated is quite clear.

I was poking fun at how the most devout Corsi supporters tend to cherry pick. When Sanheim’s Corsi is high, it’s evidence that the coach is a moron for not playing him more; when he plays more & his Corsi nosedives, it’s ignored or excused. When Matt Read & Dale Weise finish top 6 in Corsi in a season, it’s ignored. When Patrick & Vorobyev put up bad Corsis, ignored. When Hagg puts up a bad Corsi, it’s shouted from the rooftops.

I’ve long said that I don’t think Corsi is useless, I just think it’s very overrated. And selectively cited.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
155,162
Pennsylvania
Well this is interesting...I obviously am of the opinion the team does need another top 4 guy, short-term, because none of the youngsters are yet as good as Gostisbehere, and I'd prefer to be running only one of Sanheim/Myers in the top 4 for at least next season...and then being able to tailor minutes to everyone's best usage (as in, Ghost gets to eat a lot of power play time, Provorov doesn't have to get ground into dust, etc.)

That’s why I’ve said I’d keep Gudas around becuase I think he all perfectly fine to be a #4. Then our D shapes up as:
Provorov-Ghost
Sanheim-Gudas
Morin? -Myers

I think Ghost, Provorov, and Sanheim are all already easily top 4 defensemen (at the very least) so even if someone doesn’t consider Gudas to be one, he can still tag along with them. Then Myers can just be on the 3rd pair and not be responsible for too much, too soon.

And yes, I agree that Ghost is hard to replace today, because he's one of the best on the defense right now. This current defense isn't very good, but that's not the point. It's that going forward, there isn't much that's going to change about his game, he'll always be this cool unique weapon with good hands and passing all over the ice, he's 26. So today, sure, he's an important player by mere default of being in the league for more than 60 games. But he'll still be Ghost while Sanheim and Myers grow into extremely valuable defenders, and the defense will advance more from them reaching some semblance of their potential than anything else. Does that make sense?

See now this makes it sound like you’re severely underrating Ghost. “But he’ll still be Ghost”... yeah, and Ghost is already a top pair defensemen and one of the top 10 best offensive defensemen in the league. His defense is underrated too, as he showed last year. He’s increibly good at denying zone entry’s and moving the puck, two huge parts of being a good defensive player. It’s not all about grinding and battling.

Hes not important by default, he’s important becuase he’s an insanely good player and he’d EASILY be top 4, if not top pair, on most teams in this league (only reason he wouldn’t be is pair fit/chemistry).

He’s flat out impossible to replace today and extremely unlikely to be able to be replaced in the future. He doesn’t need to get any better to be a cornerstone of this defense and team. He simply needs to be used properly, both in usage and by having a non-Hagg/Mac/Folin-tier partner. What we need isn’t for the others to get as close to him as possible. If Sanheim or Myers can become 80% of the player Ghost is we’ll be in tremendous shape.

So I think this just seems to be a situation where you value Ghost far less than I do. We’re not going to see eye to eye here.
 

Adtar02

@NateThompson44 is a bum
Apr 8, 2012
4,878
5,748
2nd star 2 the right
My position that Corsi is overrated is quite clear.

I was poking fun at how the most devout Corsi supporters tend to cherry pick. When Sanheim’s Corsi is high, it’s evidence that the coach is a moron for not playing him more; when he plays more & his Corsi nosedives, it’s ignored or excused. When Matt Read & Dale Weise finish top 6 in Corsi in a season, it’s ignored. When Patrick & Vorobyev put up bad Corsis, ignored. When Hagg puts up a bad Corsi, it’s shouted from the rooftops.

I’ve long said that I don’t think Corsi is useless, I just think it’s very overrated. And selectively cited.
With Hak. When he had a high Corsica most said he is playing well and show see more mins. Mean while hak said no. But cited wiese played well and need to be move way up and see a ton more mins. The problem was hak. No everyone Corsica is basically down due to the system that Gordon plays. While high danger changes are down as they give up more bad shots. Hak was less shots but more high danger.

Should sanhiem be playing 1rd no cause he scores more on the left. Where as ghost scores more on the right. As has been proven over multiple seasons. For some reason the most skill dman and best at playing his off side is no longer doing that. Which is clearly cause balance problems for this defense.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
With Hak. When he had a high Corsica most said he is playing well and show see more mins. Mean while hak said no. But cited wiese played well and need to be move way up and see a ton more mins. The problem was hak. No everyone Corsica is basically down due to the system that Gordon plays. While high danger changes are down as they give up more bad shots. Hak was less shots but more high danger.

Should sanhiem be playing 1rd no cause he scores more on the left. Where as ghost scores more on the right. As has been proven over multiple seasons. For some reason the most skill dman and best at playing his off side is no longer doing that. Which is clearly cause balance problems for this defense.
I prefer Ghost on the right. Always have. But he stunk when paired with Provorov earlier this season. He’s had a bad season. His decrease in ice time is for a reason.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,494
164,356
Armored Train
This is borderline on arrogance..... its your opinion that he is the best d-man on the Flyers. Provorov is pretty good too. he scored 17 goals last year...tied for the most in the NHL. Its legitimate to say that Provorov is the best on the Flyers. A lot of people around the NHL will say the same thing.

Provorov was great last year.


This year is not last year.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
155,162
Pennsylvania
Provorov was great last year.


This year is not last year.
Yeah, Provorov was great last year, Ghost was even better.

Ghost has struggled this year, Provorov has been even worse.

The fact that they have highs at the same time and lows at the same time suggests an outside influence could be having an effect.
 
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baudib1

Registered User
Apr 12, 2016
8,136
11,633
Las Vegas
I don't get how anyone can watch this team and think that Provorov-Ghost, Sanheim-Gudas aren't better pairs than whatever's going on right now.

Those might not be ideal, but all of the pairings right now are problematic. Not a single player is playing to his potential.
 
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