5 teams in, 5 teams out

Sensinitis

Registered User
Aug 5, 2012
15,934
5,526
this is a very good post if true, i hate to be a hater but sens beat the bruins who were the worst playoff team in the league IMO and beat the rangers who bled down the stretch and were a wreck on D.. i know they took the pens to game 7 double OT but the playoffs are a differnet animal its not as if they were a 110 point powerhouse in the regular season....winning a pres trophy and losing in the 1st round is a better indicator that you will make playoffs again over being close to a wild card and getting to the ECF

I generally agree with your point, but you fail to take context into consideration, which is a major mistake.

I illustrated the Sens context pretty briefly in my post. They can easily be a 100+ point team next season if you consider the factors I laid out. Take a look.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
If you are unsure feel free to re-read the rest of my post which explains my reasoning. The part you quoted has a continuation.

The rest of your post starts with "Not to mention" indicating that it is additional reasons, but the first paragraph stands on its own as you thinking it is silly that anyone would believe a team that finished in the top 4 and went on such a good run, would not make the playoffs the following season.

The rest of your post is pretty weak anyway. Some unfortunate things happened last year. So what? Unfortunate things happen to every team every year. I think the Sens will most likely make the playoffs next year, but they are far from a major favorite and several teams will likely be in a tight race.
 

Sensinitis

Registered User
Aug 5, 2012
15,934
5,526
The rest of your post starts with "Not to mention" indicating that it is additional reasons, but the first paragraph stands on its own as you thinking it is silly that anyone would believe a team that finished in the top 4 and went on such a good run, would not make the playoffs the following season.

The rest of your post is pretty weak anyway. Some unfortunate things happened last year. So what? Unfortunate things happen to every team every year. I think the Sens will most likely make the playoffs next year, but they are far from a major favorite and several teams will likely be in a tight race.

LOL, is that why you are posting ad hominem and completely ignoring the points I brought up? Or is that just because you're a Leafs fan. Look at how lucky the Leafs were with injuries this year for an example.

Compare that to the Sens who had their starting goalie play just 40 games because his wife was diagnosed with cancer? I didn't know that happened every year to many teams?

Top 6 forward Macarthur played just 4 games this season. You wanna chalk that up as 'unfortunate'? Fine, but we both know that missing a top 6 F for almost the whole season isn't something that happens to every team. The Sabres missed Eichel for a large chunk but he still played 60+ games, other teams missed top 6 forwards but you'd be hard pressed to name one that just played 4 games for their team. Even the Cats with Huberdeau who got a sliced Achilles still managed 31 games.

And then you're gonna tell me that adapting to a new coach and new systems from training camp is an 'unfortunate thing'? Hmm. Sure? I'm pretty sure that most teams are already used to their systems from the get-go, for the most part. We all know how intense and precise Boucher is. It explains why the Sens were inconsistent to start the season and ended so strong (mainly in the playoffs).

You think they'll make the playoffs though so idk why we're even having this discussion :laugh: Probably because the stat you pulled up doesn't take context into consideration, and that's damn important when evaluating teams from one season to another.
 

BagHead

Registered User
Dec 23, 2010
6,532
3,529
Minneapolis, MN
why no luv for minny? we had 266GF last season even if that drops (with same roster) to 245GF & our GA should be around 200 why would we miss the playoffs? last year we were learning the new BB system , this year i think one of nino ; granlund ; zucker will hit 30G. we could have a monster year if parise ; coyle step up & staal equals last year. only achillies heal could be goaltending.

Goaltending, yes (when Dubnyk is off his game or needs rest), but I would also beg to argue that our 3rd defensive pairing could be... helter skelter, and a mishmash of rotating players, alternating between Olofsson, Reilly, Murphy and Quincey. I'm very excited and anxious to see how that shakes out. Also 3rd line center could be a rotating cast between Eriksson Ek, Coyle, and maybe even Granlund or Kunin if those other two guys don't work out. I think there are some serious question marks on the roster since we have several rookies expected to take on moderate sized roles.

I also don't see the Wild missing the playoffs this year. They're just as good as they were last year. They had flaws last season, and they have flaws this season, but it's a strong roster.
 

Insomniac99

Registered User
Oct 26, 2006
2,285
166
Orchard Park, NY
Top 6 forward Macarthur played just 4 games this season. You wanna chalk that up as 'unfortunate'? Fine, but we both know that missing a top 6 F for almost the whole season isn't something that happens to every team. The Sabres missed Eichel for a large chunk but he still played 60+ games, other teams missed top 6 forwards but you'd be hard pressed to name one that just played 4 games for their team.



The Sabres also lost Carrier for 27 games, Deslauriers for 19, Ennis for 30 , Kane for 12, Larsson for 46 , Okposo for 17, O'Reilly for 10, Bogosian for 20 , Fedun for 15, Kulikov for 25 and and handful of other players for 15 or so games.

We got HAMMERED with injuries to key players.
 
Last edited:

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
LOL, is that why you are posting ad hominem and completely ignoring the points I brought up?

Your points sucked. They were:

1) The Sens lost their last game of the year when they sat Brassard and Karlsson. Otherwise, they certainly would have won that game because their opponent was a non-playoff team (Islanders) so they actually had 100 points...even though the week before they lost 3 games to non-playoff teams with far worse records without sitting players.

2) The Sens #1 G missed more than half the season on a personal leave...even though he really didn't. He played 40 games whereas 60 would generally be expected, and basically was on leave from December 6th until Feb 10th. During that 26 game period the Sens record was 13-9-0-4 for 30 points in 26 games. That was slightly worse than the Sens record before and after which would have predicted a whopping 31 points in 26 games. Your certainty about the Sens being a better team next year relies upon the performance of a 36-year-old goalie. Of the 30 goalies who played more than 40 games last year, only Ryan Miller is older.

3) Top 6 forward was injured. Oh my! I guess the Sens should have better depth.

4) New coach! Oh my! That's like driving drunk....even though coaching changes happen all the time and most of the time teams improve with a new coach...let's look at the Sens' coaches during their first year compared to the earlier team performance:

Boucher - improvement
Cameron - improvement
MacLean - improvement
Clouston - improvement
Hartsburg - worse
Paddock - improvement
Murray - improvement
Martin - improvement

and improvement with a coach during their second year over their first year is less common.

Boucher - ?
Cameron - worse
MacLean - better
Clouston - worse
Murray - worse
Martin - better
 
Last edited:

Sensinitis

Registered User
Aug 5, 2012
15,934
5,526
1) The Sens lost their last game of the year when they sat Brassard and Karlsson. Otherwise, they certainly would have won that game because their opponent was a non-playoff team (Islanders) so they actually had 100 points...even though the week before they lost 3 games to non-playoff teams with far worse records without sitting players.

If you truly understood my point and weren't grasping at straws, you would have realized that I was simply saying that the Sens hit 98 points and easily could have hit at least 100 points, demonstrated by an example of an easy win under 'normal' circumstances (i.e. not resting players before the playoffs). I could have used any game to make that point, I just used the one I thought was the most appropriate. When you take that into account, and the coaching adjustment, and the Anderson factor, I really don't see how the Sens can't at least make the playoffs next year... You seem to agree with that... I have a bigger fish to fry with the people predicting the Sens will miss the playoffs than you.

2) The Sens #1 G missed more than half the season on a personal leave...even though he really didn't. He played 40 games whereas 60 would generally be expected, and basically was on leave from December 6th until Feb 10th. During that 26 game period the Sens record was 13-9-0-4 for 30 points in 26 games. That was slightly worse than the Sens record before and after which would have predicted a whopping 31 points in 26 games. Your certainty about the Sens being a better team next year relies upon the performance of a 36-year-old goalie. Of the 30 goalies who played more than 40 games last year, only Ryan Miller is older.

Yes, he played 40 games. Yes, he would have probably played 60 under normal circumstances. Yes, the team went 13-9-4 during that stretch. You don't think that with their #1G in nets and a rested Condon (he played more than 25 games in a row last year iirc) that the Sens could have squeaked in at least a couple more wins? That brings them to 100+ points.

The point you rise with Andy's age is definitely a reasonable one. The thing is, goalies tend to have longer shelf lives and if you look at Andy's career, he hasn't played that many games from season to season. He very much still seems to be in his prime, which started not so long ago. Sure he'll drop off eventually (couple years? idk), but Condon seems like a reasonable alternative considering the stat you mentioned early. Either way, this thread is about next season. I highly doubt Andy suddenly drops off a cliff after his great showing in the playoffs. If you believe so, ok.

3) Top 6 forward was injured. Oh my! I guess the Sens should have better depth.

Are you sure about that? The Sens had 10 players with 30+ points last season, and that doesn't include Ryan who just played 62 games and slumped hard until wrecking the playoffs. Chabot is also coming in who seems to have at least 30 point production potential from the back-end. White too. I'm pretty sure that's solid depth. Ryan Dzingel who got 32 points last season is listed to start on the 4th line this year.

4) New coach! Oh my! That's like driving drunk....even though coaching changes happen all the time and most of the time teams improve with a new coach...let's look at the Sens' coaches during their first year compared to the earlier team performance:

Boucher - improvement
Cameron - improvement
MacLean - improvement
Clouston - improvement
Hartsburg - worse
Paddock - improvement
Murray - improvement
Martin - improvement

and improvement with a coach during their second year over their first year is less common.

Boucher - ?
Cameron - worse
MacLean - better
Clouston - worse
Murray - worse
Martin - better

It's the second time now you post random facts and think they mean something under completely different circumstances. One context doesn't relate to another... At least not usually. Your sample size is puny which doesn't help either. Clouston, Hartsburg and Paddock were all terrible terrible coaches.

Boucher was voted a top 10 coach by HF (maybe not the most reliable stat :laugh:), and I would think most posters here and most people in the hockey community know that he's a good coach. His systems were complex and difficult to adjust to. The Sens used to play a freestyle offensive style game with no semblance of defensive structure. It's one of the reasons why they were such a high scoring team before the 2016-2017. Boucher brought in defensive structure and the players and himself admitted that it took until about December or January until the team really sunk in. That explains why Boucher would rarely play rookies (notably White in the playoffs when we had some injuries), because you need time to learn to play his way. Next year, the team starts with that knowledge and gets into training camp comfortably and with much less adjustments to make.

You don't see how all these factors add a few points here and there, or at least point to the Sens making the playoffs next season?
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Boucher was voted a top 10 coach by HF (maybe not the most reliable stat :laugh:), and I would think most posters here and most people in the hockey community know that he's a good coach. His systems were complex and difficult to adjust to. The Sens used to play a freestyle offensive style game with no semblance of defensive structure. It's one of the reasons why they were such a high scoring team before the 2016-2017. Boucher brought in defensive structure and the players and himself admitted that it took until about December or January until the team really sunk in. That explains why Boucher would rarely play rookies (notably White in the playoffs when we had some injuries), because you need time to learn to play his way. Next year, the team starts with that knowledge and gets into training camp comfortably and with much less adjustments to make.

Boucher takes over a non-playoff team and immediately gets them into the 100 point range and even to game 7 of the conference final where they miss going to finals by a goal. Things can't go anywhere but up as the players adjust to his system. Instead, they fall almost 20 points and miss the playoffs and then the following season he gets fired around 30 games into the season with the team in the bottom 3 in the NHL. This is what happened to the Lightning under Boucher. So this idea that things will only go up for Ottawa as they adjust to his coaching is over-confidence.
 
Last edited:

Sensinitis

Registered User
Aug 5, 2012
15,934
5,526
Boucher takes over a non-playoff team and immediately gets them into the 100 point range and even to game 7 of the conference final where they miss going to finals by a goal. Things can't go anywhere but up as the players adjust to his system. Instead, they fall almost 20 points and miss the playoffs and then the following season he gets fired around 30 games into the season with the team in the bottom 3 in the NHL. This is what happened to the Lightning under Boucher. So this idea that things will only go up for Ottawa as they adjust to his coaching is over-confidence.

Go look at the defence and goaltending he had with the Bolts, and then look at what he'll have with the Sens. There's a substantial gap in talent. Also, someone as competitive and young as Boucher surely isn't exactly the same coach as he was back then. Lessons were to be learned for sure, and he has discussed that already with the Ottawa media. Thanks for the discussion!
 

BringBackHakstol

Registered User
Oct 25, 2005
20,460
11,122
Philadelphia
I know the Flyers have a great pool of young talent but they lost Brayden Schenn and replaced Mason with Elliot (sideways.)

They missed the playoff by 8 points and their season included a 10 game win streak. If they had just gone 7-3-0 in that stretch, still a great stretch but much more sustainable and/or repeatable, then they miss the playoffs by 14 points.

Frankly, I fail to see how anyone is as high on them as they are. Unless they have huge years from some youngsters and Elliot is a 10 goalie, I find it very unlikely.

This is a fair point. I think most Flyers fans see it as a toss up if they will improve enough to get into the playoffs. Here's a few reasons why it could happen:

- Giroux, Ghost, and Voracek had down years, there's a decent chance they rebound
- Schenn is a loss on the PP, but he was atrocious at ES which was the Flyers' biggest weakness. His ES TOI will be filled by players that should fair much better at ES (Konecny, Lindblom, Patrick)
- As you mentioned, big seasons from youngsters would be required. Konecny looks poised to break out in his second season, and Lindblom has not only played against men but excelled in the SHL already. So those 2 players in particular would not be a stretch to imagine solid contributions from. Patrick and the young D such as Sanheim, Hagg, Morin are the wild cards here.
- Mason and Neuvy gave the Flyers horrific goaltending last season. As you mention, Elliot is a lateral move, but it's hard seeing it not be at least a little better this season.
- One more season under Provorov's belt could be a nice little bump
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
There's a group of teams that are good enough to be playoff teams even with a lot of injuries and misfortune. There's a few teams that are bad enough that even good fortune won't help them.

For the vast majority, this is a key factor. Impact from injuries and overall misfortune dwarfs the talent differential between the middling teams.

Makes it kind of hard to predict.
 

Sensators

Registered User
Sep 15, 2009
1,129
541
I think the Bruins are still pretty good, they put up a great fight with many of their players injured. It has to be said that 3 of the breakout teams last yr (leafs/clb/edm) were hella healthy all year. It plays a big part in who makes it and who doesn't. It's not a sexy black and white this teams good this team sucks way to think so I can see why people don't talk about it but unless you are an elite team like the pens it is one of the largest factors in who makes it and who doesn't.


Buffalo/Tampa/Florida I feel were injured quite a bit in the east last year and should be primed for a comeback. I feel like Sens/Leafs/Habs/Bruins/Rangers could all fall out. Sens have the worst "advanced stats" so maybe they are the best bet. Sens PP was absolutely awful last year though so at least they will probably get better there.
 

Saitama

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Oct 20, 2010
8,380
5,938
Winnipeg
Until the Rangers actually do miss the playoffs, I don't know why anyone would choose them for these lists, but every year tons of people do....
 

VoynovsParoleOfficer

Registered User
Jun 13, 2015
846
2
Until the Rangers actually do miss the playoffs, I don't know why anyone would choose them for these lists, but every year tons of people do....


yeah, the rangers management is always downplayed. The core remains in tact and they improve around it by picking up key depth every year. As long as Hank isnt a total shell of himself theyll make the playoffs as a "not bubble" team
 

TK 421

Barbashev eats babies pass it on
Sep 12, 2007
6,460
6,114
I would love to hear some reasoning from those who think the Blues will miss this year. Personally I think they contend for the top spot in the Central.
 

oconnor9sean

Registered User
Mar 3, 2013
6,134
1,807
DFW
Even in years when it looks like there won't be any turnover, there always is turnover.

IN: Dallas, Winnipeg, Tampa Bay, NY Islanders, and Carolina

OUT: Minnesota, San Jose, Boston, Ottawa, NY Rangers
 

Habsawce

Registered User
Nov 16, 2010
31,299
2,603
Canada
As a Montreal fan I could easily see them missing the playoffs. A lot of teams improved in the East. But, I can also see them winning the Atlantic because of Carey Price and a new coach.

Ultimate toss up team.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad