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Its difficult to compare players stats in different eras. Hockey was definitely more defensive in Harvey's era.
Doug Harvey was the most dominant defenceman in the NHL in the 1950's both offensively and defensively.
What made Harvey such a great player was his ability to take the puck and slow the game down and then control the play.
One difference between Orr and Harvey was that Harvey was much more nastier than Bobby Orr - actually Harvey was downright mean and was feared for his stickwork and retaliation. If a young player dared to check Harvey, the player was warned by Harvey that the next time he did that, he would have need of stitches to repair his wounds.
So, Harvey was given extra room out there on the ice. That's a 'skill' that makes a good player better.
Doug Harvey was the most dominant defenceman in the NHL in the 1950's both offensively and defensively.
What made Harvey such a great player was his ability to take the puck and slow the game down and then control the play.
One difference between Orr and Harvey was that Harvey was much more nastier than Bobby Orr - actually Harvey was downright mean and was feared for his stickwork and retaliation. If a young player dared to check Harvey, the player was warned by Harvey that the next time he did that, he would have need of stitches to repair his wounds.
So, Harvey was given extra room out there on the ice. That's a 'skill' that makes a good player better.
Ogopogo said:
JCD
Registered User
chooch said:
If by most, you mean you and K10, then correct.
If you mean most, as in a majority, you are just making up crap. Again.
That he was the best offensive player if not subject to debate. It is statistical fact. You can argue that other players have had more natural gifts, but nobody did more with their talent than Wayne. He has virtually every record imaginable. Tough to overcome that mountain of evidence.
What is even less subject to debate is his popularity. He absolutely transcended the sport. Toothless moutain people without running water might not know what year it is, but they know who Wayne Gretzky is. He is, without a doubt, the most recognizable name in hockey history. Ask any non-hockey fan to name a hockey player, Wayne Gretzky will be the overwhelming answer.
Unparalleled achievements. Unparalleled popularity. If you don't call him the most trascendent player ever, you are doing so because you have an ax to grind.
Psycho Papa Joe
Porkchop Hoser
KOVALEV10 said:
Orr is #9.
I thought this was a "Harvey was not good offensively" debate not a "Orr was better than Harvey offensively" debate.
Harvey does rank higher in assists than Red Kelly, Bill Gadsby, Eddie Shore, Brian Leetch and Denis Potvin. Not too shabby.
arrbez said:
I think you may be putting to much into stats. Richard played in a different era, when you didn't get many 8-7, 6-5 games when Gretzky and Lemieux played. If I'm not mistaken, the max games in the reg season at the time Richard played was 70, so his point totals would be lower than some playing in the 70-80's. If there was a playoff game on the line, there is no one, and I mean no one that I would want on my team than the Rocket. He did in fact dominate most games. He not only scored, but he could also lay out the opponent with a solid check, or beat the tar out of them. He could do it all. When Gordie Howe says that the Rocket was the best player he ever saw, and hated to play against, I think he should be in the top 5 players and icons of all time.
i never said anything about his point totals, because it's obviously a different era. but the Hart is something that is given to the best player, and can be compared directly across era's
all I'm saying is that if Richard was truly a Gretzky or Orr-esque talent (ie: in a different stratosphere than just about everyone else), he surely would have won the award more than once
all I'm saying is that if Richard was truly a Gretzky or Orr-esque talent (ie: in a different stratosphere than just about everyone else), he surely would have won the award more than once
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arrbez said:
If you go by number of trophies then Jagr is a better player then Rocket eh? Makes sense.
How many Art Rosses does Jagr have? Like 5 compared to Rocket's 0. I guess Jagr was definately better.arrbez said:
No its not. The hart is a trophy that is awarded to the player who is most valuable to his team not the best player in the league. The best player in the league is awarded the Pearson trophy, which Rocket would've won more then once I'm sure had it been awarded when Rocket played. Who's new to logic now?
Oh and one more thing Rocket was robbed of the hart many times. Remember the year when Rocket scored 50 goals in 50 games a new record at the time? He didn't even win the Hart trophy. Talk about being robbed.
Oh and one more thing Rocket was robbed of the hart many times. Remember the year when Rocket scored 50 goals in 50 games a new record at the time? He didn't even win the Hart trophy. Talk about being robbed.
KOVALEV10 said:
yes, the Hart is the MVP award. Historically the very elite players have accumulated a few of these during their prime. If Richard was miles ahead of the other star player of his era, I have to believe he would have had a few of these. Howe had 6, Orr had 3 in a row, Gretzky had 9 in 10 years. Lemieux had 3. Most people would argue that these are the top 4 players of all time, in one order or another. I don't see Richard's dominance up there with these 4
Malefic74
Registered User
chooch said:
In your post way back there at #60, you mentioned America with regards to Gretzky than mentioned Senna.
If you're going to change the basis of your argument, please do so a little more clearly so that plain humble hicks like myself can try to understand where you're coming from.
Worldwide yes, Senna was more well known, (though i would suggest Schumacher is even moreso now). But in the USA F1 has never been closely followed and its drivers are largely anonymous to the casual sports fan.
Malefic74 said:
I wrote:
"FYI - most americans dont give a damn about hockey and have never heard of 99.
To even mention 99 in the same breath as those you listed (and Tiger Woods or Senna or Magic or Pele or a hundred other north and south american athletes)"
By "americans" I meant north and south as per the brackets. Youre right in the US alone senna is about as well known as 99.
My point is that Senna was in my mind the smartest athlete ever; a revolutionary driver (in some bad ways also); a true gift to mankind for 34 years.
His Senna Foundation which he began in the months prior to his accident raise $300 million every year to help impoverished kids. Watch "A Star named Senna" for a true athlete who transcended his sport.
I agree with you in the 80's 99 was as well known on a general level (Mary Hart) in the US as any hockey player is going to be.
Gretzky definitely transcended the game. Look at the reaction in LA the moment the Kings acquired him: season ticket sales increased in a staggering way. Non-hockey fans immediately became hockey fans. The Kings became the hottest ticket in town. I wouldn't say he transcended his sport as much as Jordan (I've heard stories that there are kids in Africa and Asia who can't speak a word of English, but know the name Michael Jordan) or Ali (who is in a class by himself when it comes to transcendence). But Gretzky was named one of SI's 20 most important athletes from 1954-1994 (as part of SI's 40th birthday celebrations) and was also an SI Athlete of the Year (1983, I think). I believe Bobby Orr finished somewhere around 35-40 on that list, Gordie Howe was just left off.
To say Gretzky didn't transcend the game would be undercutting his place in the history of North American pro sports. But I wouldn't put him in a class with Montana, Ali or Babe Ruth. I'd say more of a Joe Montana - a guy many consider the best ever, who did his job with unprecedented precision, accuracy and brilliance, and whose name even non-fans would recognize.
Senna is, for my money, the greatest race car driver ever. But I wouldn't say he transcended the sport in North America. Most non-racing fans in North America wouldn't know who that is. As sad as it is, more North Americans would know the names Dale Earnhardt or Jeff Gordon than Senna.
I'd say Gretzky and Orr transcended the game across North America, Richard and Paul Henderson (surprised nobody has mentioned his name yet) did it in Canada, and the 1980 U.S. Olympic hockey team did it in the U.S.
To say Gretzky didn't transcend the game would be undercutting his place in the history of North American pro sports. But I wouldn't put him in a class with Montana, Ali or Babe Ruth. I'd say more of a Joe Montana - a guy many consider the best ever, who did his job with unprecedented precision, accuracy and brilliance, and whose name even non-fans would recognize.
Senna is, for my money, the greatest race car driver ever. But I wouldn't say he transcended the sport in North America. Most non-racing fans in North America wouldn't know who that is. As sad as it is, more North Americans would know the names Dale Earnhardt or Jeff Gordon than Senna.
I'd say Gretzky and Orr transcended the game across North America, Richard and Paul Henderson (surprised nobody has mentioned his name yet) did it in Canada, and the 1980 U.S. Olympic hockey team did it in the U.S.
God Bless Canada said:
I do recall hearing stories from Canadians who lived/travelled to Africa and Asia. Many times when people heard that they were from Canada the locals immediately brought up the name Wayne Gretzky. Wayne's popularity was more global than many people think.
God Bless Canada said:
About Senna.. who cares if the americans dont know him. USA isn't the only country in the world you know. All of Europe knows who Senna is. Americans could watch there stupid Nascar all they want, Formula 1 is the flagship of racing.
Ogopogo said:
yeah sure, and I'm Dave Semenko.
If you use the word transcend properly rather than synonymously with "popular"
then Ken Dryden is the most transcendent hockey player ever:
Best selling books on many topics;
Ontario Youth Commissioner;
TV commentator (even ABC in Olympics);
and now MP, Federal Cabinet Minister and possibly future leader of your country.
Red Fisher called him a genius; he's well travelled, well read; well spoken.
A bit different than hosting Saturday Night Live and coaching the Coyotes.
mcphee
Registered User
Kovy,you sort of have this 'if I like it it must be the best' thing going on. Personally,I wouldn't watch F1 if I was a homeless guy living in a drainage ditch on Ile Notre Dame, and it's the 1 weekend of the year that I avoid Mtl. You couldn't get me to a Nascar race to rescue my kidnapped children.I'd much rather be at my seat in McGill Stadium and watch CFL football. I don't think anybody's stupid for feeling differently though.KOVALEV10 said:
When I think of "transcend," I think of someone whose accomplishments in the game raised him to another level of prominence, into the mainstream of culture. Gretzky did that. Orr did that. The 1980 U.S. Olympic Team did that. Paul Henderson did that. Maurice Richard did that.
Gretzky was one of Sports Illustrated's 40 most important Athletes of the past 40 years back in the mid 1990s. (1994, I believe). It was a list that encompassed all global sports. (A little slanted towards the U.S., but I believe Pele was No. 1 on their list). Orr was the only other hockey player on the list. If you want to see Gretzky's "transcendence" of the game, look at the reaction in LA the moment the Kings acquired, and how the Kings went from an afterthought in the LA sports community, to a major player until the day Gretzky was traded to St. Louis.
Dryden is one of the all-time great goalies, and is an absolute genius. But his accomplishments in the legal and now political arenas are more a reflection of his intelligence, not his hockey career. He may have been elected as an MP based on his hockey career (Howie Meeker's a former MP), but Dryden likely wouldn't be a rookie MP with a cabinet post if not for his extraordinary intellect.
Gretzky was one of Sports Illustrated's 40 most important Athletes of the past 40 years back in the mid 1990s. (1994, I believe). It was a list that encompassed all global sports. (A little slanted towards the U.S., but I believe Pele was No. 1 on their list). Orr was the only other hockey player on the list. If you want to see Gretzky's "transcendence" of the game, look at the reaction in LA the moment the Kings acquired, and how the Kings went from an afterthought in the LA sports community, to a major player until the day Gretzky was traded to St. Louis.
Dryden is one of the all-time great goalies, and is an absolute genius. But his accomplishments in the legal and now political arenas are more a reflection of his intelligence, not his hockey career. He may have been elected as an MP based on his hockey career (Howie Meeker's a former MP), but Dryden likely wouldn't be a rookie MP with a cabinet post if not for his extraordinary intellect.
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