# 4 player in the Cap era (2005 onwards).

[triggrman]

I'd take Lidstrom easily. I'd take him over Malkin though..

 

[daver]

In Lidstrom's last Norris season, Shea Weber was undoubtedly a better defender. People often vote based on name recognition better than quality of player. Datsyuk was slightly under Malkin offensively for several years, and was defensively on another planet than him and just about every other player in the world.

Can you expand on this? What do you mean by slightly under?

 

[bobholly39]

i've never like Datsyuk as much as others for some reason....
Thornton is ok, has the 2 monster seasons, but aside from that is seriously lacking in playoffs especially

I actually voted Kane here - and did so quite easily. The cups (and actual playoff performances) help a ton. But he also has a huge ross/hart/lindsay season.

Would Lids even count? I can't even remember what year exactly he retired. He's obviously a better player than Kane - but assuming he doesn't count (or doesn't have enough good years to edge out Kane) - it's Kane.

Obviously - all this post is strictly ignoring McDavid.

 

[North Man]

No love for Iginla?

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Can you expand on this? What do you mean by slightly under?

You want to go down this road again? I seem to remember a thread where you contested that Malkin was better in 07/08 and 08/09 based on awards voting. You then blew off Datsyuk's defensive ability with offensive numbers, at which point I displayed that Datsyuk was actually more offensively effective for the minutes given.

We really don't wanna go back down that road.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Easily Kane.

 

[triggrman]

i've never like Datsyuk as much as others for some reason....
Thornton is ok, has the 2 monster seasons, but aside from that is seriously lacking in playoffs especially

I actually voted Kane here - and did so quite easily. The cups (and actual playoff performances) help a ton. But he also has a huge ross/hart/lindsay season.

Would Lids even count? I can't even remember what year exactly he retired. He's obviously a better player than Kane - but assuming he doesn't count (or doesn't have enough good years to edge out Kane) - it's Kane.

Obviously - all this post is strictly ignoring McDavid.

didnt Lids win 4 Norris trophies from 05 to 11

 

[BeastoftheEast85]

If we are talking about forwards, I would say Thornton slight edge over Datsyuk due to consistency and longevity. Also would at least make St. Louis, the Sedins and Iginla also options.

If all positions, then Lidstrom or Brodeur.

 

[Varan]

what argument does Joe have over Kane? because he's played longer? accumulated more stats? because if you bring in playoffs, it is not even close.

JT doesn't have the excuse of being on bad teams. Since he has been on San Jose, his worst full season was the 14/15 season when they missed the playoffs. Exclude the lockout season and 14/15, his lowest win total in a season was 43! and they were 2nd in the Pacific!

He is consistently on contending teams and can't lead his team to get it done. Obviously now, he is much older and is limited in what he can do, so his contribution won't be much.

I know it is a team game, however playoff success matters.

Playoffs aside, let's look at individual awards and success:

Hart: 1-1
Ted L. 0-1 Kane
Art Ross: 1-1
Rocket R.: 0-0
Conn Smythe: 0-1 Kane
Calder: 0-1 Kane
First AS Team: 1-3 Kane

Kane Top 10 Hart Finishes: 1, 6, 6, 7
JT Top 10 Hart Finishes: 1, 4, 5, 6, 9, Winner

Kane Top 10 Point Finishes: 1, 2, 5, 9
JT Top 10 Point Finishes: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8 Winner

Kane has the advantage in goals: 2, 5, 10
JT does not have a top 10 goals finish

The advantage goes to Kane

 

[daver]

You want to go down this road again? I seem to remember a thread where you contested that Malkin was better in 07/08 and 08/09 based on awards voting. You then blew off Datsyuk's defensive ability with offensive numbers, at which point I displayed that Datsyuk was actually more offensively effective for the minutes given.

We really don't wanna go back down that road.

Yeah, those hypothetical points that Datysuk produced really helped the Wings those two years. I really don't understand why coaches don't reduce the minutes of their whole team to pump their per 60/minutes GFs and GAs.

I see you have completely avoided talk of playoffs. At least you haven't tried to pull the Datysuk was injured in 2009 card again.

The fact is Malkin has a peak season, a sustained level of play, and a playoff resume that blows Datysuk's out of the water.

 

[Iceman]

are people seriously forgetting lidstrom? He was a top player until he retired.

If we look at 2000-2009 he is #1 and it’s not like he was useless 2005+

4 norris trophies is pretty solid, lol.

 

[DDRhockey]

If we look at 2000-2009 he is #1 and it’s not like he was useless 2005+

4 norris trophies is pretty solid, lol.

And he isnt an option

 

[SotasicA]

Lidstrom has 4 Norris trophies post-lockout. Or Duncan Keith with 2 Norris' and a Conn Smythe.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

I really don't understand why coaches don't reduce the minutes of their whole team to pump their per 60/minutes GFs and GAs.

Probably because their numbers would go down too. Come on daver, even you're not that dense.

 

[triggrman]

And he isnt an option

Which is why this isn't going to get good results. I voted "other" for this reason.

 

[daver]

Probably because their numbers would go down too. Come on daver, even you're not that dense.

I was being facetious, that if /60 is so important, the whole team should come off the ice when they scored a couple of goals to make their Goals/60 look better. Any talk of Datsyuk matching Malkin offensively gets into pure speculation. That is a an undeniable fact.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I'm also laughing at the idea of Malkin definitively being above Datsyuk and Thornton. But hey, it's a Daver thread.

Did you miss the past decade or something? 113, 109, 106, 98 point seasons, #3 in points per game among active players (behind Crosby and Mcdavid), 2 art rosses, conn smythe, hart, lindsay, 165 points in 158 playoff games, 3 cups, 3x first team all star... I mean it's very very clear he's above those two.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

Did you miss the past decade or something? 113, 109, 106, 98 point seasons, #3 in points per game among active players (behind Crosby and Mcdavid), 2 art rosses, conn smythe, hart, lindsay, 165 points in 158 playoff games, 3 cups, 3x first team all star... I mean it's very very clear he's above those two.

-Not to mention the points per game and playoff points per game. The Former 2 arent even Top 100 players all time. The latter is a Top 30 player all time

 

[authentic]

Pavel Datsyuk.

Then Joe Thornton.

Then Patrick Kane.

Among the options these are who I'd pick, I would think Zetterberg and Bergeron could have an argument over Kane though for their amazing two-way play and playoff pedigree.

 

[authentic]

are people seriously forgetting lidstrom? He was a top player until he retired.

Problem is he retired 6 years ago now and his last few seasons and especially his last one were not overly great.

 

[authentic]

Needs to be way more options. Including some defensemen and maybe a couple goalies. I don’t see what Datsyuk or Kane have done to separate themselves from other forwards in this time period

Well, Datsyuk was clearly the best player after the big 3 and if you disagree I don't believe you were paying enough attention.

 

[authentic]

Could (or would) have been Kovalchuk, if he hadn't gone to the KHL.

No, because he's not better than Datsyuk or even Kane.

 

[authentic]

-Not to mention the points per game and playoff points per game. The Former 2 arent even Top 100 players all time. The latter is a Top 30 player all time

Lol...

 

[pheasant]

No, because he's not better than Datsyuk or even Kane.

Right. Because this isn't subjective, or anything.

 

[authentic]

Right. Because this isn't subjective, or anything.

It is to an extent, but considering he left the NHL after his peak which objectively was not as good as Kane's or Datsyuk's it seems very unlikely to me.