Sportsnet: 31 Thoughts Podcast: Matthews Camp Offered 3 years x 9 million / Korshkov in the NHL next season?

[Throw More Waffles]

Again career highs arent everything. Do you think William Karrlson should paid like a 40 goal scorer? Or is it better to look at multiple seasons to evaluate a player for a long term contract.

If your adding in (just for fun) a players production after they signed a contract when talking about the value of a contract it just shows extreme bias. Hindsight is 20/20.

Funny how when you list out all the differences in their play that contributes to contract negotiation you leave out all the reasons Nylander could have been paid what he was.

This board is so partitioned now it is BRUTAL. Everything always seems to boil back down to Dubas vs Hunter lol

I simply don't believe you.

Pastrnak's career high during elc was FOURTEEN GOALS more than Nylander and TEN POINTS.

I simply don't believe you would EVER accept those numbers in reverse as a comparable to Nylander. No matter what the situation, spin, or rhetoric used... you would NEVER consider a 7 goal/50 point career high player as a comparable to Nylander. I don't believe you for a f***ing second...

And I added the "just for fun" part in order to show that such an outcome was easily predictable. It's not a "hindsight is 20/20" situation. It's a DON'T PAY A 20 GOAL/60 POINT PLAYER THE SAME AS A PROVEN 34 GOAL/70 POINT PLAYER!!!!
It's common f***ING sense.

 

[hotpaws]

Yzerman used the no state tax advantage when the Lighnting meet with Tavares as a reason why he should have signed with them.

no , he used the non state tax to justify signing with them at a much lower salary because there's no way he was going to offer anywhere near the 11m he got here

and the Dube should have pitched the

-huge off ice deals
-the close to 50% front loaded salary as well as the lockout/buyout structure where almost the entire salary is paid in bonuses

to get a JT at a deal similar to what Stammer signed for

 

[LeafsNation75]

Funny...

I notice when there is a HORRIBLE contract given out (like Eichel), that becomes that new benchmark for where leaf negotiations begin.
Yet when GREAT contracts are awarded (Pastrnak, McDavid), they for some reason just "don't count" when used as comparables.

Fancy that.

At that time Eichel had signed his new contract before McDavid did. However everyone said he was overpaid for what he had done at that point in his NHL career. They also said Matthews deserved more than Eichel. As for McDavid I remember others also said he got $12.5 million AAV based on what he had done which was win the Hart, Art Ross and Ted Lindsay.

 

[hector morrison]

The saviour is here! Please send in your resume for GM consideration! WE BELIEVE IN YOU!

Really eh? Not exactly constructive criticism from said poster...as if they have an answer...would love to hear a hard- line against the Matthews camp...would be a huge shyte storm...what these Dubas haters don't realize,is that there really is no option to make the Team management look like financial geniuses because that player will get paid somewhere!.Anyway, why even follow the team if you're so distraught?

 

[LeafsNation75]

no , he used the non state tax to justify signing with them at a much lower salary because there's no way he was going to offer anywhere near the 11m he got here

and the Dube should have pitched the

-huge off ice deals
-the close to 50% front loaded salary as well as the lockout/buyout structure where almost the entire salary is paid in bonuses

to get a JT at a deal similar to what Stammer signed for

What about the difference how Stamkos still got 8 years and Tavares even though he's making more AAV, signed for 1 less year because the maximum he could get is 7 years as a UFA.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

At that time Eichel had signed his new contract before McDavid did. However everyone said he was overpaid for what he had done at that point in his NHL career. They also said Matthews deserved more than Eichel. As for McDavid I remember others also said he got $12.5 million AAV based on what he had done which was win the Hart, Art Ross and Ted Lindsay.

Matthews ppg over elc is like 90% closer to Eichel than to McDavid. So shouldn't Matthews contract be 90% closer to 10x8 (plus cap inflation) than 12.6x8?
But 11.6x5? Times five? Times FIVE? TIMES FIVE?????

 

[Legion34]

T-Bays contracts are no where near as front loaded as JT's who collects 31m out his 77m deal in the first 12 months . Also you left out how much more our players make off the ice for some reason .

and even though the players may play in a non income tax state they still have to pay state tax for away games as well having experts preparing there taxes contrary to the belief on our board that they just use the latest addition of turbo tax

Not signing bonus. They get paid out. In full
On July 1

Look at Tampa’s cap friendly. They paid big bonuses to 3 players. They all just happened to be the ones that took cuts?

They have multiple players who are a higher, more realistic cap hit who don’t have them.

Unless what? Tampa only tried to negotiate with those 3?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Matthews ppg over elc is like 90% closer to Eichel than to McDavid. So shouldn't Matthews contract be 90% closer to 10x8 (plus cap inflation) than 12.6x8?
But 11.6x5? Times five? Times FIVE? TIMES FIVE?????

I'm just stating what others said at the time which is that Eichel was overpaid and he set the minimum at what we wanted to see Matthews get. So anything that happened after like Matthews signing for 5 years at $11.65 million AAV is also with hindsight.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I'm just stating what others said at the time which is that Eichel was overpaid and he set the minimum at what we wanted to see Matthews get. So anything that happened after like Matthews signing for 5 years at $11.65 million AAV is also with hindsight.

So... again... ONE overpayment, and that becomes the benchmark of where leaf negotiations have to begin?

But the GOOD contracts "don't count" as comparables? Why?

WHHYYYY?????

 

[LeafsNation75]

So... again... ONE overpayment, and that becomes the benchmark of where leaf negotiations have to begin?

But the GOOD contracts "don't count" as comparables? Why?

WHHYYYY?????

Because when bad contracts like Eichel set the bar for other players like Matthews, that's why his gets brought up more than McDavid's contract.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Because when bad contracts like Eichel set the bar for other players like Matthews, that's why his gets brought up more than McDavid's contract.

Wait a second...

You see this... this RIGHT HERE... is what I'm confused about.

Why does one HORRIBLE contract become the benchmark for where leaf negotiations need to BEGIN... but all the GOOD comparable contracts "don't count"?

That's my question.

I don't think you have an answer. There is no logical answer to my question. And that's because Dubas SHOULD have compared Matthews to BOTH the good contracts AND the bad.

 

[Legion34]

so because Yzerman was able to get the players to sign reasonable deals it's has to be because they don't pay state tax on a portion of there salary and not because maybe just maybe he should get a little credit for doing a good job on the salary negotiations

but

because Dubas got bent over like a biatch and set new standards for players salaries it wasn't that he did a poor job negotiating deals , it was only because of the taxes

and just because the Dube gave huge up front money as well as making the deals buyout and lockout proof as well as getting them huge endorsement deals doesn't mean he did a bad job by getting forced to give industry setting deals , it just means that every benefit we can give means absolutely nothing in negotiations for some reason , lol

No. Again he got 3 great deals on 3 deals with signing bonuses.

The league has repeatedly shown that teams that have some sort of stability and no taxes get better deals. Unless you think that the best negotiators in the nhl all just so happen to work in tax free states. Funny how that works......

There are many teams that have endorsement opportunities. There are many teams that provide front loaded contracts. There is NO evidence that these teams get better deals than the rest of the league.

There are plenty of examples of tax free teams getting the best deals.

That is reality. You don’t have to like it. But if you are an adult you should probably try to wrap your head around it. If you want to actually understand what is happening. Rather than just vent.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

No. Again he got 3 great deals on 3 deals with signing bonuses.

The league has repeatedly shown that teams that have some sort of stability and no taxes get better deals. Unless you think that the best negotiators in the nhl all just so happen to work in tax free states. Funny how that works......

There are many teams that have endorsement opportunities. There are many teams that provide front loaded contracts. There is NO evidence that these teams get better deals than the rest of the league.

There are plenty of examples of tax free teams getting the best deals.

That is reality. You don’t have to like it. But if you are an adult you should probably try to wrap your head around it. If you want to actually understand what is happening. Rather than just vent.

There are three indisputable facts here.

1. Lower taxes are an advantage to the player.
2. Front-loaded contracts paid largely in signing bonuses are an advantage to the player.
3. Being in a city with a shit ton of endorsement deal opportunities is an advantage to the player.

For you to suggest that ONLY fact #1 should result in lower aav's is pretty f***ing stupid.

This is a narrative you're clinging to ONLY because it allows you to defend a gm that you're to biased to criticize.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Unless you think that the best negotiators in the nhl all just so happen to work in tax free states.

Let's see Yzerman's negotiations with the Red Wings players since Michigan does not have that no state tax advantage he got with the Lightning in the state of Florida.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Wait a second...

You see this... this RIGHT HERE... is what I'm confused about.

Why does one HORRIBLE contract become the benchmark for where leaf negotiations need to BEGIN... but all the GOOD comparable contracts "don't count"?

That's my question.

I don't think you have an answer. There is no logical answer to my question. And that's because Dubas SHOULD have compared Matthews to BOTH the good contracts AND the bad.

My point is until Eichel signed his contract we never saw other players in that situation sign for 8 years coming off their ELC. That's why I mentioned the examples of Kane, Toews and Stamkos who signed 5 year contracts after their ELC had finished. The fact that Eichel got $10 million AAV after he scored 24 goals and 32 assists in his second season makes it look even worse.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

My point is until Eichel signed his contract we never saw other players in that situation sign for 8 years coming off their ELC. That's why I mentioned the examples of Kane, Toews and Stamkos who signed 5 year contracts after their ELC had finished. The fact that Eichel got $10 million AAV after he scored 24 goals and 32 assists in his second season makes it look even worse.

Regardless of all of that, Matthews came in somewhere between Eichel and McDavid.

And being tht Matthews was like 90% closer to Eichel in ppg, he should have signed FAR closer to Eichel than McDavid, over EIGHT YEARS!!! Not (lol) five.

 

[hotpaws]

What about the difference how Stamkos still got 8 years and Tavares even though he's making more AAV, signed for 1 less year because the maximum he could get is 7 years as a UFA.

What about it ? JT 77m over 7yrs , SS 68m over 8yrs so if you want to fully cover the extra year JT's salary would have been 9.7m .

 

[hotpaws]

Not signing bonus. They get paid out. In full
On July 1

Look at Tampa’s cap friendly. They paid big bonuses to 3 players. They all just happened to be the ones that took cuts?

They have multiple players who are a higher, more realistic cap hit who don’t have them.

Unless what? Tampa only tried to negotiate with those 3?

most teams don't just hand out up front cash like candy since no team wants to make contracts buyout/lockout proof like the Dube did unless they have too so why would you consider it a negative that Yzerman didn't bend over like the Dube has ?

 

[LeafsNation75]

Regardless of all of that, Matthews came in somewhere between Eichel and McDavid.

And being tht Matthews was like 90% closer to Eichel in ppg, he should have signed FAR closer to Eichel than McDavid, over EIGHT YEARS!!! Not (lol) five.

To be fair once Eichel signed his contract everyone assumed he should have got more than Eichel, which should have been $10.5 or $10.75 million on a 8 year contract. No one would have thought he would only sign for 5 years at $11.634 million.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

To be fair once Eichel signed his contract everyone assumed he should have got more than Eichel, which should have been $10.5 or $10.75 million on a 8 year contract. No one would have thought he would only sign for 5 years at $11.634 million.

While I agree with that to a point, remember that Eichel is NOT the only comparable. So is McDavid. you know... 110 point Hart and Art Ross trophy MCDAVID... his contract was also a comparable. And, like i said, Matthews was FAAARRRR closer to Eichel than McDavid. The 11.65 contract is baffling. BAFFLING!!!

 

[LeafsNation75]

While I agree with that to a point, remember that Eichel is NOT the only comparable. So is McDavid. you know... 110 point Hart and Art Ross trophy MCDAVID... his contract was also a comparable. And, like i said, Matthews was FAAARRRR closer to Eichel than McDavid. The 11.65 contract is baffling. BAFFLING!!!

Except at that time not even Leafs fans said Matthews was a comparable to McDavid or his contract. They said Eichel set the bar and Matthews deserved to make a little more than him.

 

[hotpaws]

No. Again he got 3 great deals on 3 deals with signing bonuses.

The league has repeatedly shown that teams that have some sort of stability and no taxes get better deals. Unless you think that the best negotiators in the nhl all just so happen to work in tax free states. Funny how that works......

There are many teams that have endorsement opportunities. There are many teams that provide front loaded contracts. There is NO evidence that these teams get better deals than the rest of the league.

There are plenty of examples of tax free teams getting the best deals.

That is reality. You don’t have to like it. But if you are an adult you should probably try to wrap your head around it. If you want to actually understand what is happening. Rather than just vent.

who other than Tampa in a non state tax team is getting great deals on players contracts ?

Dallas - Seguin/Benn didn't give discounts compared to anyone other than the deals Dubas handed out

Nashville - RyJo is overpaid and i don't see anyone who gave a discount

i know it's impossible for some on this board to believe a rival GM may have done a good job and give him credit for it and i also know the Dube fan club will argue to the death that he's the greatest GM in the history of sport , what i don't understand however is why they couldn't care less if he destroys the team as long as there's some way to spin it as not being his fault

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Except at that time not even Leafs fans said Matthews was a comparable to McDavid or his contract. They said Eichel set the bar and Matthews deserved to make a little more than him.

The fact that Matthews isn't a comparable to McDavid means that he should be FARTHER away from the McDavid contract. Not CLOSER!!!!

 

[LeafsNation75]

who other than Tampa in a non state tax team is getting great deals on players contracts ?

Dallas - Seguin/Benn didn't give discounts compared to anyone other than the deals Dubas handed out

Nashville - RyJo is overpaid and i don't see anyone who gave a discount

i know it's impossible for some on this board to believe a rival GM may have done a good job and give him credit for it and i also know the Dube fan club will argue to the death that he's the greatest GM in the history of sport , what i don't understand however is why they couldn't care less if he destroys the team as long as there's some way to spin it as not being his fault

Do you think Dubas overpaid for Tavares? Let's remember that San Jose was offering him 7 years at $91 million which is $13 million AAV and you got to think no matter where Tavares signed he would have got at least $10 million AAV at minimum.

 

[LeafsNation75]

The fact that Matthews isn't a comparable to McDavid means that he should be FARTHER away from the McDavid contract. Not CLOSER!!!!

I agree with you about that. However I was only saying what others thought Matthews should have got at the time when Eichel signed his extension.