Series Discussion: (3) Dallas Stars vs (6) Calgary Flames

[Boomstick]

Have they announced the start time for Thursday's game yet?
Still says TBD everywhere I look.

 

[Mobiandi]

I don't see how people think that our rush offense has been coached out of the players when they watch Dube, Bennett, Backlund, Mangiapane, and Lucic play.

All the players know what's expected of them. The ones that aren't doing it are just not willing to move their feet to do it

It also doesn't help that Giordano, Hanifin, and our 3rd pairing have been giveaway machines

 

[Mazatt]

I don't see how people think that our rush offense has been coached out of the players when they watch Dube, Bennett, Backlund, Mangiapane, and Lucic play.

All the players know what's expected of them. The ones that aren't doing it are just not willing to move their feet to do it

It also doesn't help that Giordano, Hanifin, and our 3rd pairing have been giveaway machines

Yeah, I think the big issue is our top line is oddly unwilling to play with the puck, and when they do get it out of the zone they're so tired from defending they can't do a thing. Especially when you not only see the guys you said carry it in (Especially Lucic), but you see Andersson scoring off the rush and getting more chances like that, it makes you think it's not the Stars defense stifling the Flames rush attack, it's their lack of willingness to actually get involved in the play that's stopping our offense from getting hot.

Our entire D-core has been giveaway machines. Brodie on the PK yesterday, Andersson early in every game, our d-core is folding under pressure.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Have they announced the start time for Thursday's game yet?
Still says TBD everywhere I look.

Probably won't know until late tonight / early tomorrow. Might depend on who is or isn't eliminated today.

 

[Nanuuk]

The problem I have with this analysis is that we treat the elimination of time and space as a given. It's really not. Our play as a team is resulting in very little time and space, but if you watch any other teams in the playoffs (other than the heavy underdogs) you'll see consistent rushes with time and space. You'll see teams with their top players skating with room through the neutral zone and looking like top players because of it. You'll also see absolute superstar players who we'd love to have look bad if they never have time and space.

We need to defend with a plan, break the puck out with a plan and move through the neutral zone with a plan. If we continue to make our forwards look bad by throwing them grenades with no support, we'll watch them go to other teams that do have a good system and see them blow up.

How many other teams are playing the neutral zone trap? I can't think of one.

 

[Anglesmith]

How many other teams are playing the neutral zone trap? I can't think of one.

Neutral zone traps don't explain defensive zone turnovers and disorganization. And they all would if there wasn't a way to beat it.

There is no question that the Stars play sound, structured defence. But all systems that take something away give something up in return. In order to always have guys back on defence to clog up the neutral zone, you have to ease up on offensive zone pressure (which is what the Flames do with the lead). This would mean there should always be a release valve in the defensive end. You look at that winning goal last night and it started with the Flames having full control of the puck in their own end. They weren't trapped into turning the puck over, they just all had different ideas of how to get the puck out and gave each other no support. All five guys trying to make up the plan on the fly. You beat a forecheck by automatically moving the puck to where it needs to go and knowing where your support is, and the Flames don't have that plan in place from what I can tell.

 

[apollo18]

giordano looking very bad last game .... he needs to step up if he wants to prove to people last year wasnt a fluke which it basically was

 

[Anglesmith]

giordano looking very bad last game .... he needs to step up if he wants to prove to people last year wasnt a fluke which it basically was

I don't think he wants to prove anything at this point. I think he just wants to play well and win. I highly doubt that public perception is the primary motivation for these guys right now.

 

[FlamerForLife]

Have they announced the start time for Thursday's game yet?
Still says TBD everywhere I look.

The start time will be announced at the conclusion of the Carolina/Boston game today

 

[Nanuuk]

Neutral zone traps don't explain defensive zone turnovers and disorganization. And they all would if there wasn't a way to beat it.

There is no question that the Stars play sound, structured defence. But all systems that take something away give something up in return. In order to always have guys back on defence to clog up the neutral zone, you have to ease up on offensive zone pressure (which is what the Flames do with the lead). This would mean there should always be a release valve in the defensive end. You look at that winning goal last night and it started with the Flames having full control of the puck in their own end. They weren't trapped into turning the puck over, they just all had different ideas of how to get the puck out and gave each other no support. All five guys trying to make up the plan on the fly. You beat a forecheck by automatically moving the puck to where it needs to go and knowing where your support is, and the Flames don't have that plan in place from what I can tell.

There is no doubt that Coach Huska hasn't done a good job with our D. We improved with Hamonic being out, but in our own end its a gong show. We were running around a lot because the forwards can't clear the friccin' zone. I lost count how many times a powerd puff clearing attempt was made only to be stopped at the blue line by the Dallas D. Who promptly located unguarded teammates.

The trap has made it difficult to progress through the neutral zone. It seems like the only times we did that was when Gaudreau or Backlund took in from our D Zone with speed.

 

[Anglesmith]

There is no doubt that Coach Huska hasn't done a good job with our D. We improved with Hamonic being out, but in our own end its a gong show. We were running around a lot because the forwards can clear the friccin' zone. I lost count how many times a powerd puff clearing attempt was made only to be stopped at the blue line by the Dallas D. Who promptly located unguarded teammates.

The trap has made it difficult to progress through the neutral zone. It seems like the only times we did that was when Gaudreau or Backlund took in from our D Zone with speed.

The weak chips up the boards are plays where they are hoping that one of their teammates is there. The fact that so often they aren't is a testament to how they aren't on the same page and that no one really knows what they're supposed to be doing.

We always seem to be reacting instead of dictating when we have the puck.

 

[Mobiandi]

8:30 start time

 

[Mazatt]

There is no doubt that Coach Huska hasn't done a good job with our D. We improved with Hamonic being out, but in our own end its a gong show. We were running around a lot because the forwards can't clear the friccin' zone. I lost count how many times a powerd puff clearing attempt was made only to be stopped at the blue line by the Dallas D. Who promptly located unguarded teammates.

The trap has made it difficult to progress through the neutral zone. It seems like the only times we did that was when Gaudreau or Backlund took in from our D Zone with speed.

That's on the Flames as a whole not reacting and adjusting their tactics to the fact that Dallas' D is over agressive on the pinch (because they know the Flames won't change their breakout away from chipping it up the boards). Biggest thing we need to do is try and get the centre up ice for a pass on the breakout, or straight up give wingers better passes to take and have them chip it to the middle. I know the big addage is to avoid the centre of the ice but with proffessional players, and with Dallas crowding the boards it just makes sense. Even if it's just one time. It's like Gaudreau or Marner shooting on the powerplay so they have to respect his shot instead of always clogging the passing lanes.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

 

[Anglesmith]

Zing.

 

[HugginThePost]

The problem I have with this analysis is that we treat the elimination of time and space as a given. It's really not. Our play as a team is resulting in very little time and space, but if you watch any other teams in the playoffs (other than the heavy underdogs) you'll see consistent rushes with time and space. You'll see teams with their top players skating with room through the neutral zone and looking like top players because of it. You'll also see absolute superstar players who we'd love to have look bad if they never have time and space.

We need to defend with a plan, break the puck out with a plan and move through the neutral zone with a plan. If we continue to make our forwards look bad by throwing them grenades with no support, we'll watch them go to other teams that do have a good system and see them blow up.

Okay, so what’s the solution?

Another coach?

Another GM?

Another, what?

This team has shown no fortitude for 14 years.

Are you saying we’re a Gallant away from competing??

 

[Anglesmith]

Okay, so what’s the solution?

Another coach?

Another GM?

Another, what?

This team has shown no fortitude for 14 years.

Are you saying we’re a Gallant away from competing??

Certainly could be. It's absolutely worth it to find out. Rebuilding is and should be a last resort, because the chances of being a Buffalo or Edmonton are too high.

This core has shown that they can be dominant when they play to their potential. We're in a situation where it makes a lot more sense to change the coach than dismantle the roster.

 

[HugginThePost]

Certainly could be. It's absolutely worth it to find out. Rebuilding is and should be a last resort, because the chances of being a Buffalo or Edmonton are too high.

This core has shown that they can be dominant when they play to their potential. We're in a situation where it makes a lot more sense to change the coach than dismantle the roster.

I don’t disagree with giving it one more year if we can bring in an established coach.

But I’m not holding my breath.

A new coach isn’t going to stop Johnny playing scared. A new coach isn’t going to turn Sean into a #1C. A new coach isn’t going to turn back the clock for Gio.

I fully believe this team has the talent to go on streaks in the regular season. I think they can run and gun when the stakes aren’t very high.

But I have zero faith in this team when the going gets tough.

I mean, how many times do we need to see this version of the Flames in the playoffs before we ask for big change?

For a second year in a row we have our goaltender standing on his head, giving the team a chance to win.

For a second year in a row, the team is wilting under pressure.

 

[Anglesmith]

I don’t disagree with giving it one more year if we can bring in an established coach.

But I’m not holding my breath.

A new coach isn’t going to stop Johnny playing scared. A new coach isn’t going to turn Sean into a #1C. A new coach isn’t going to turn back the clock for Gio.

I fully believe this team has the talent to go on streaks in the regular season. I think they can run and gun when the stakes aren’t very high.

But I have zero faith in this team when the going gets tough.

I mean, how many times do we need to see this version of the Flames in the playoffs before we ask for big change?

For a second year in a row we have our goaltender standing on his head, giving the team a chance to win.

For a second year in a row, the team is wilting under pressure.

Honestly, the biggest difference between regular season and playoffs is that you don't play any bad teams. You can make the playoffs by beating the teams you should and taking a portion of games against the top teams. To advance in the playoffs, you have to beat a good team more than they beat you.

This team didn't get worse in the playoffs these last two years. What they are hasn't been good enough. They were worse than Colorado down the stretch last year and were worse than them in the playoffs, too. They were worse than Dallas all year this season and so far are losing to them in the playoffs.

But if you go back in time, this same core played their best hockey in the playoffs in both 2015 (outmatched against the Ducks) and 2017 (just not Elliott). Their pre-careers outside of Calgary also don't support a narrative that they shrink from pressure. That narrative is one that comes from emotion, not critical analysis. The problems that have caught up to the Flames in the playoffs these last two years were carried over from the regular season. They are not playoff issues.

 

[HugginThePost]

Honestly, the biggest difference between regular season and playoffs is that you don't play any bad teams. You can make the playoffs by beating the teams you should and taking a portion of games against the top teams. To advance in the playoffs, you have to beat a good team more than they beat you.

This team didn't get worse in the playoffs these last two years. What they are hasn't been good enough. They were worse than Colorado down the stretch last year and were worse than them in the playoffs, too. They were worse than Dallas all year this season and so far are losing to them in the playoffs.

But if you go back in time, this same core played their best hockey in the playoffs in both 2015 (outmatched against the Ducks) and 2017 (just not Elliott). Their pre-careers outside of Calgary also don't support a narrative that they shrink from pressure. That narrative is one that comes from emotion, not critical analysis. The problems that have caught up to the Flames in the playoffs these last two years were carried over from the regular season. They are not playoff issues.

Okay, so again, what is the solution?

We both agree they aren’t good enough to even got out of the first round.

So what do they do? Continue being first round fodder, like they have been for the last 20+ years, minus one lightening in a bottle year?

Do you really thing we are another head coach away from competing?

We’ve tried hard asses, we’ve tried new age, we’ve tried friendly, we’ve tried everything, the results are always the same. Missed playoffs or first round exits.

It’s time to get serious........no?

 

[Anglesmith]

Okay, so again, what is the solution?

We both agree they aren’t good enough to even got out of the first round.

So what do they do? Continue being first round fodder, like they have been for the last 20+ years, minus one lightening in a bottle year?

Do you really thing we are another head coach away from competing?

We’ve tried hard asses, we’ve tried new age, we’ve tried friendly, we’ve tried everything, the results are always the same. Missed playoffs or first round exits.

It’s time to get serious........no?

What we've never tried since the roster came into its own is a coach who has demonstrated an ability to win in the NHL. To suggest we've had every type of coach is incorrect. We've had every type of bargain coach. I agree it's time to get serious. This is a pivotal season, and our coaching decision needs to reflect that.

To address the rest of your post, I think we have different interpretations of "they aren't good enough." The team isn't good enough. The team is a combination of the players and how they play. I think the players are capable of forming a very good team. I don't think they currently play like one, and they haven't since part-way through last season.

When a team isn't good enough, I think the solution is simple: make it better. I trust that Treliving will continue to attempt to improve the roster part of the equation as he has every year he's been in charge, but I don't think you should downplay the impact a coach can make on what a team is. I remember watching a hockey talk show on TV when Darryl Sutter got hired in LA in 2012 and watching Nick Kypreos loudly mock and lambaste the decision. Sutter took a team wallowing in mediocrity and brought them two Cups in three years. Look what Mike Sullivan did in Pittsburgh. Look at what Trotz did in Washington. Look at what Berube did in St. Louis.

I think everyone loves rebuilds, but the harsh reality of what they are is kind of inescapable: giving up, caving in and starting what could be a decade-long search for the next competitive window. If you want an argument against tearing it down, we did that in 2013 and it brought us here. And we aren't even a bad example of a rebuild! This is kind of middle-of-the-road. The next one could be worse. And then the one after that. A seven-year cycle of giving up is a good way to end up with a streak worse than Toronto's.

Meanwhile, look at the top teams in the league. There are a whole lot more re-tooled teams competing for the Cup right now and in recent seasons than products of a recent tear-down. Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, New York (Islanders), Dallas, Colorado, etc. have all taken their lumps over the years with rosters that aren't good enough, but they are where they are now because instead of giving up, they've just worked on improving the team year over year. Sometimes it means shaking up the roster, but often it means bringing in a coach who can get more out of that roster. That's the track I want the Flames to be on. The core is quite young, and if it can be moulded into a good team then we absolutely have a chance at the Cup in the near future.

You have to take that shot. The alternative is much more bleak.

 

[HugginThePost]

What we've never tried since the roster came into its own is a coach who has demonstrated an ability to win in the NHL. To suggest we've had every type of coach is incorrect. We've had every type of bargain coach. I agree it's time to get serious. This is a pivotal season, and our coaching decision needs to reflect that.

To address the rest of your post, I think we have different interpretations of "they aren't good enough." The team isn't good enough. The team is a combination of the players and how they play. I think the players are capable of forming a very good team. I don't think they currently play like one, and they haven't since part-way through last season.

When a team isn't good enough, I think the solution is simple: make it better. I trust that Treliving will continue to attempt to improve the roster part of the equation as he has every year he's been in charge, but I don't think you should downplay the impact a coach can make on what a team is. I remember watching a hockey talk show on TV when Darryl Sutter got hired in LA in 2012 and watching Nick Kypreos loudly mock and lambaste the decision. Sutter took a team wallowing in mediocrity and brought them two Cups in three years. Look what Mike Sullivan did in Pittsburgh. Look at what Trotz did in Washington. Look at what Berube did in St. Louis.

I think everyone loves rebuilds, but the harsh reality of what they are is kind of inescapable: giving up, caving in and starting what could be a decade-long search for the next competitive window. If you want an argument against tearing it down, we did that in 2013 and it brought us here. And we aren't even a bad example of a rebuild! This is kind of middle-of-the-road. The next one could be worse. And then the one after that. A seven-year cycle of giving up is a good way to end up with a streak worse than Toronto's.

Meanwhile, look at the top teams in the league. There are a whole lot more re-tooled teams competing for the Cup right now and in recent seasons than products of a recent tear-down. Philadelphia, Boston, St. Louis, New York (Islanders), Dallas, Colorado, etc. have all taken their lumps over the years with rosters that aren't good enough, but they are where they are now because instead of giving up, they've just worked on improving the team year over year. Sometimes it means shaking up the roster, but often it means bringing in a coach who can get more out of that roster. That's the track I want the Flames to be on. The core is quite young, and if it can be moulded into a good team then we absolutely have a chance at the Cup in the near future.

You have to take that shot. The alternative is much more bleak.

I don’t know brother, you seem to have a lot more faith in this organization than I do.

Of course, I’m going off past performance.

You can not deny that this team has been an abject failure for what seems like, well, forever.

They have been a middling team since the beginning of time.

Im sorry, but I just don’t believe that we are a coach away from winning

You mentioned Sutter and LA. Well, Sutter, and his heavy handed tactics, couldn’t get this team anywhere.

What kind of coach do you think is going to make these guys play with heart, with determination?

They don’t have the talent to compete with the Avalanche or Oilers, so you I’ve to rely on heart. From what I’ve seen from this team......they lack heart.

When things get tough......they fade to the background.

This team has had success when Johnny and Gio are firing on all cylinders. Throw in some solid goaltending.

When was the last time you saw a solid Johnny or Gio?

We are getting A+ goaltending right now, but we can’t even take advantage of that. May as well rewatch last years playoffs. It’s the same show all over again

Speed and skill is f***ing our shit up.

 

[Mazatt]

Speed and skill is f***ing our shit up.

At what point has they speed and skill come into play? Flames are struggling to defend against a heavy team asserting themselves in front of the net and aren't adjusting to a team who's offense runs through point shots and rebounds.

 

[Anglesmith]

I don’t know brother, you seem to have a lot more faith in this organization than I do.

Of course, I’m going off past performance.

You can not deny that this team has been an abject failure for what seems like, well, forever.

They have been a middling team since the beginning of time.

Im sorry, but I just don’t believe that we are a coach away from winning

You mentioned Sutter and LA. Well, Sutter, and his heavy handed tactics, couldn’t get this team anywhere.

What kind of coach do you think is going to make these guys play with heart, with determination?

They don’t have the talent to compete with the Avalanche or Oilers, so you I’ve to rely on heart. From what I’ve seen from this team......they lack heart.

When things get tough......they fade to the background.

This team has had success when Johnny and Gio are firing on all cylinders. Throw in some solid goaltending.

When was the last time you saw a solid Johnny or Gio?

We are getting A+ goaltending right now, but we can’t even take advantage of that. May as well rewatch last years playoffs. It’s the same show all over again

Speed and skill is f***ing our shit up.

Meh, most of the league subscribes to the "middling for a long time" label. That's the nature of a big league with parity. Even if every team perfectly shared the Cup, you'd wait on average 31 years between Cups. But you factor in the fact that teams that get to the top tend to stay there, and it pushes that even further. The best an organization can do is create a competitive window and hope to climb that mountain.

You're basically summing up the standard hockey cliche of creating a narrative about heart every time a team isn't successful in the playoffs. I already spoke on that in the post you quoted. You're painting this as a team that gets worse in the playoffs, but that isn't really the case.

The last time we saw a solid Johnny and Gio was the last time the team was playing together as a unit: the first half of last season. Let's get a coach who can get us back to that, because it was pretty fun as a fan.

 

[Fig]

There's a longish gap, right? Hope for good ice.

At what point has they speed and skill come into play? Flames are struggling to defend against a heavy team asserting themselves in front of the net and aren't adjusting to a team who's offense runs through point shots and rebounds.

Idk... I see somewhat the opposite. Ward had implemented a ton of stuff on the fly. Some worked like the Lubedu line, lucic on faceoffs etc. Others, not as much. I'm actually wondering if some of the struggles of the team is implementing the new ideas on the fly. One thing that's interesting, is the ward is kind of a mad scientist and tries a bunch of stuff none of us would have imagined to decent results. That's encouraging and i would love if he's allowed to keep trying to unlock the roster talent.

Coaching wise, I'd still love an upgrade. Quietly, I like him, but idk what Gelinas does to stay so long (since 2012). I'd hire a coach upgrade and demand ward be kept as AC to keep learning rather than Gelinas as AC.