2nd Cup affect Ovechkin's legacy/ all-time ranking?

[illicit]

You cant put Jaromir Jagr lower than Ovechkin on the all time list because Ovie picked up a couple of more trohpys against inferior competetion (compared to 66 & 99) when Jagr had to face 99 & 66. They are above Jagr, but facing them meant it was impossible to pick up trophys during these years. Thats why you use POINTS before awards when you rank players! Awards are random, because a freak injury here and there takes away awards! To look at all other stats during a career is much more important.

What about when Ovechkin passes Jagr on the all time goals list with 400 fewer games played? Inferior players? Come on man, the average modern NHL player is infinitely better than the average player when Lemieux and Gretzky were playing. I can guarantee that 66 and 99 would not be putting up 200 points a season in the modern NHL. Your argument has so many holes in it. So it was impossible for Jagr to pick up trophies while Gretzky and Lemieux were playing, please then explain how all these players beat Crosby to the Art Ross when he's a top 5 all-time player? Surely, by your logic, he should have won every year as he's the best player right?

 

[Dessloch]

What about when Ovechkin passes Jagr on the all time goals list with 400 fewer games played? Inferior players? Come on man, the average modern NHL player is infinitely better than the average player when Lemieux and Gretzky were playing. I can guarantee that 66 and 99 would not be putting up 200 points a season in the modern NHL.

Come again when Ovechkin passes Jaromir Jagr in total points, then you can talk, I´ll be here to acknowledge Ovie when it happens. He has 600 points left to climb. Points over goals, period!

 

[illicit]

Come again when Ovechkin passes Jaromir Jagr in total points, then you can talk. He has 600 points left ot climb. Points over goals, period!

Considering 2 assists are given on the goals, goals are clearly worth more than assists.

 

[TeeTee]

He does not have this reputation at all outside of a few morons who are so blinded by their homerism that they cant' recognize one of the greatest of all time by any measuring stick you use. Yes, a 3 time MVP and likely the greatest power forward of all time in hockey is one dimensional. Yes, the guy is in the top 12 amongst active players in assists is one dimensional. You people are hilarious.

Homerism? Compare my response to yours. Also, what is the correlation between shot volume and assists?

 

[Zuluss]

First of. 08-10 was along time ago. Ovechkin has not showed an ounce of semblance of being anywhere near that level of play.

Ovechkin's peak play is a high watermark. Crosby has never been near that level of play in his whole career outside of brief 40-game stretches, and Ovechkin stayed at that level for 230 games with little time missed.

Crosby kept his overall elite play up for years after and just scored 100 points 2 years ago while ovechkin has sometimes struggled to put up a ppg season since the age of 26.

Oh come on. Unless you started watching in 2017, you know full well that ppg was almost guaranteed top5 finish in points for several years of Ovechkin's prime. Whereas in the season when Crosby scored 100 points we had 30+ ppg players. When 29-year-old Ovechkin was "just at ppg" in 2014/15, he was hands-down the best forward. When Crosby scored his 100 points two years ago, he was not even a top3 forward, and got nominated for Hart only because Hawks and Oilers did not make the playoffs.

It will probably be another elite season for Crosby with both hart and Lindsay finalist which shows us that 16 years into his career he is still an mvp caliber player which obv adds to elite longevity.

Crosby is not an MVP caliber player, and he has not been since 2016/17. He is just rounding out the three nominants in a shortened season with unbalanced divisions, when a lot of better players missed significant time (MacK, Panarin). Crosby's Lindsay nomination this year (and his Hart nomination in 2018/19, for that matter) are similar to 2nd MSL's Art Ross. Everyone was pretty clear that MSL was not the best offensive contributor in 2012/13 and that MSL should not be compared to other repeat Art Ross winners like Malkin or Lafleur. MSL was just lucky to finish 1st for a lot of different reasons.
In short, you are definitely fooling yourself if you think that Crosby this year is anywhere near Ovechkin in any of his Lindsay nomination years (2005/06, 2012/13, 2014/15). Just like there are Art Ross winners - and then there is MSL's 2012/13. Or there are Hart winners - and Taylor Hall.

Crosby lost out on a lot of awards due to injuries but still is consistently one of the best players in the league. You cannot say the same about ovechkin outside of his goal scoring

Ovechkin still has more years when at least 15 voters had him on their Hart ballots, i.e. as a top5 player in the league.

 

[TeeTee]

Considering 2 assists are given on the goals, goals are clearly worth more than assists.

Huh?

 

[JasonRoseEh]

Huh?

Goals are more important and more valuable than assists,

 

[Zuluss]

And which seasons are you using as "peak points"? His peak averages were a hell of a lot higher than a 111 point average.

Jagr's best 4 consecutive years are 1997-2001. Ovechkin's best 3 consecutive years are 2007-2010. Both averaged around 110 points in a very similar scoring environment.

a more accurate way to gauge goal scoring during those years would be using the average goals per game and not what random #10 guy was scoring.

Why would you think than a peer to an Art Ross winner is an average skater in the league rather than a fellow star who finished top10 in points the same season?
#10 in points (or goals) is not really random, #8 and #12 are usually very close, so if someone get injured or has a career year, it will barely move the needle in terms of #10 in points.

Besides, if we are talking about DPE, adjusting by average goals per game yields very funny results (like peak Todd Bertuzzi being McDavid's equal), and the reason is that during DPE teams would have their best forwards play 25 minutes per game, so the gap between TOI of a star and TOI of an average skater was the greatest during DPE, and the gap in production was correspondingly abnormally big.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

I’m not denying that but one person is saying he’s better AND more decorated than Yzerman and Sakic

He objectively is, there is zero argument for Sakic and Yzerman over Ovechkin. It isn`t that close either.

 

[JasonRoseEh]

12th in assists for active players while 7th in GP for active players doesnt seem all that impressive

I mean, what the F...

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin's peak play is a high watermark. Crosby has never been near that level of play in his whole career outside of brief 40-game stretches, and Ovechkin stayed at that level for 230 games with little time missed.



Oh come on. Unless you started watching in 2017, you know full well that ppg was almost guaranteed top5 finish in points for several years of Ovechkin's prime. Whereas in the season when Crosby scored 100 points we had 30+ ppg players. When 29-year-old Ovechkin was "just at ppg" in 2014/15, he was hands-down the best forward. When Crosby scored his 100 points two years ago, he was not even a top3 forward, and got nominated for Hart only because Hawks and Oilers did not make the playoffs.



Crosby is not an MVP caliber player, and he has not been since 2016/17. He is just rounding out the three nominants in a shortened season with unbalanced divisions, when a lot of better players missed significant time (MacK, Panarin). Crosby's Lindsay nomination this year (and his Hart nomination in 2018/19, for that matter) are similar to 2nd MSL's Art Ross. Everyone was pretty clear that MSL was not the best offensive contributor in 2012/13 and that MSL should not be compared to other repeat Art Ross winners like Malkin or Lafleur. MSL was just lucky to finish 1st for a lot of different reasons.
In short, you are definitely fooling yourself if you think that Crosby this year is anywhere near Ovechkin in any of his Lindsay nomination years (2005/06, 2012/13, 2014/15). Just like there are Art Ross winners - and then there is MSL's 2012/13. Or there are Hart winners - and Taylor Hall.



Ovechkin still has more years when at least 15 voters had him on their Hart ballots, i.e. as a top5 player in the league.

No crosby will have a bigger hart record after this year. And save the extra hart because you know why ovechkin won it.

The top 5 Hart voting will be.
Crosby 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 5
Ovechkin 1 1 1 2 2

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Ovechkin still has more years when at least 15 voters had him on their Hart ballots, i.e. as a top5 player in the league.

I think it's 9-9 unless I've mis-counted:

Ovechkin: 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2018, 2019
Crosby: 2007, 2009, 2010, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2019

 

[Zuluss]

No crosby will have a bigger hart record after this year. And save the extra hart because you know why ovechkin won it.

The top 5 Hart voting will be.
Crosby 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 5
Ovechkin 1 1 1 2 2

Why cut at top5 when Ovechkin had a bigger share % of Hart votes in 2015/16 when he was 6th than Crosby had when he was 5th?
Cutting at top5 also conveniently leaves out 2005/2006, when Ovechkin was better than Crosby was in several of his Hart nomination years, and Ovechkin got snubbed then because he was on a garbage team.
And really, we know that Crosby over McDavid in 2018/19 was a joke (and that's the story of one of those 2s) and Crosby over Benn and Holtby and even Karlsson in 2015/16 was far from an obvious choice in 2015/16 (and that's the story of another one of the 2s).
Just like I said, a lot of Crosby's Hart nominations look like Taylor Hall's Hart. Good for Taylor Hall, good for Crosby, but let's not compare their seasons to Ovechkin's Harts or Jagr's nominations. They are not close in value.

 

[Hatfield]

No crosby will have a bigger hart record after this year. And save the extra hart because you know why ovechkin won it.

The top 5 Hart voting will be.
Crosby 1 1 2 2 2 2 3 3 5
Ovechkin 1 1 1 2 2

Ovechkin was robbed the year Henrik Sedin won.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin was robbed the year Henrik Sedin won.

You mean Crosby was

 

[evolutionbaby]

He objectively is, there is zero argument for Sakic and Yzerman over Ovechkin. It isn`t that close either.

They have more cups, more points and better PPG. More international success...

 

[evolutionbaby]

I mean, what the F...

How can one of the best players ever have 11 ACTIVE players ahead of him in assists? Half of them playing even less games than him too. Great goalscorer. Good player overall, not great.

 

[Hatfield]

You mean Crosby was

Crosby should have finished 2nd.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby should have finished 2nd.

1st but it is what it is.

 

[Hatfield]

1st but it is what it is.

Same number of points in 9 fewer games.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Same number of points in 9 fewer games.

Thanks for the 2013 hart

 

[who_me?]

2nd cup? lol

that first cup has an asterisk next to it (won against an expansion team lol)

 

[WarriorofTime]

2nd cup? lol

that first cup has an asterisk next to it (won against an expansion team lol)

An expansion team that beat all the other teams in the West?

 

[Mr Burns]

If Ovie breaks the Gretzky's goalscoring record, I think he will have a case for 5th best player of all-time behind the Big Four (Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, Howe).

 

[Foots]

An expansion team that beat all the other teams in the West?

Don't mind that guy. That is at least the second time he has posted that around HF.