2nd best player in the league!

Who is the 2nd best player in the league?


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Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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Hedman and Josi are pretty darned good. If we just go with forwards though, then clearly it’s McDavid at the top. Then his teammate Draisatl is up there. Barkov, McKinnon, Panarin, and Marner are Great too. Eichel has been injured, but he’s great. Lots of great players, who could be number two.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
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He’s not even top 10 in points

He’s 15th in the league in even strength points. Matthews is 2nd. Matthews is clearly more dominant offensively.

Matthews has 42 takeaways. Defensive juggernaut barkov has 34. Sure takeaways aren’t everything, but you’d expect this guy to lead the league in every defensive category the way some people talk about him.
Matthews is playing to a 63 goal 108 point pace under 82 games this season. if he played nearly anywhere else but Toronto, especially in a smaller market he would be talked of in a much higher regard on these boards.

I also think very highly of Barkov. you dont have many 90+ point elite defensive centers anymore.
 

The Moose is Loose

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Jun 28, 2017
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Matthews is playing to a 63 goal 108 point pace under 82 games this season. if he played nearly anywhere else but Toronto, especially in a smaller market he would be talked of in a much higher regard on these boards.

I also think very highly of Barkov. you dont have many 90+ point elite defensive centers anymore.

This is just not true. If he played anywhere else he’d be talked about significantly less and wouldn’t be overhyped by the media to the degree he is. If he were in Arizona nobody would be pushing for him to be considered the 2nd best player in the league because it’s obvious he’s not and Arizona doesn’t have the fan base size to push that false narrative.

The singular reason that he is in this conversation is because of the Jersey he wears, not the results he has produced.
 

CanadienShark

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Dec 18, 2012
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Its a tough decision between Mackinnon and Draisaitl. I've always said Mackinnon to this question before, but it's impossible to argue with the results that Draisaitl has been putting up for the past 3 years now, and the trophies that have coincided with that insane production.

I think Mackinnon needs to have his year, like Draisaitl did last year, where he sweeps the awards and the players see him at the best player and he can more unanimously be known as the 2nd best player in the league.

Kinda disingenuous that OP listed the reigning Hart, Art Ross, Lindsay who is currently 2nd in the league in points, as the last option for this poll- behind Marchand, Pastrnak, and Ovi who really don't belong in this conversation at all.

Really the front runner options for this poll are Draisaitl, Mackinnon or Hedman, they have a slight gap on the next tier of Kucherov/Crosby/Panarin/Kane
Well put. I'd move Kucherov up, but it's close.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
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This is just not true. If he played anywhere else he’d be talked about significantly less and wouldn’t be overhyped by the media to the degree he is. If he were in Arizona nobody would be pushing for him to be considered the 2nd best player in the league because it’s obvious he’s not and Arizona doesn’t have the fan base size to push that false narrative.

The singular reason that he is in this conversation is because of the Jersey he wears, not the results he has produced.
i meant in a negative regard. for every Leaf fan there is 10 Leaf haters. If Matthews was in a small market, i dont doubt he would be called "underrated" and unnoticed playing for a small fanbase. Like Barkov has/have been, and someone like Ekman-Larsson in years prior.
 

authentic

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Jan 28, 2015
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This is just not true. If he played anywhere else he’d be talked about significantly less and wouldn’t be overhyped by the media to the degree he is. If he were in Arizona nobody would be pushing for him to be considered the 2nd best player in the league because it’s obvious he’s not and Arizona doesn’t have the fan base size to push that false narrative.

The singular reason that he is in this conversation is because of the Jersey he wears, not the results he has produced.

He would be rated higher on hfboards and maybe lower in the media.
 
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The Moose is Loose

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i meant in a negative regard. for every Leaf fan there is 10 Leaf haters. If Matthews was in a small market, i dont doubt he would be called "underrated" and unnoticed playing for a small fanbase. Like Barkov has/have been, and someone like Ekman-Larsson in years prior.
Thats just your perception that there are a ton of "leaf haters" because you argue for Matthews. The pushback against Matthews is because he is put into comparisons that he doesn't belong in, people don't just naturally hate Matthews. I really like him as a player, he's killed it for me in fantasy in years past, but I side myself against Matthews more frequently than I side with him because I feel like his reputation gets inflated.
And its not just Toronto, all of the large passionate fanbases are guilty of this. Watch out if Montreal ever gets a 1C because they overrate the hell out of their centers, none of whom are even 1st liners.

If Matthews played for Arizona/Florida I agree he'd be regarded as underrated because he wouldn't be considered a top 5 forward or a top 10 player because of his lack of national attention. With leaf nation trying to say he is a top 2/3 player he gets overrated. Reality is he is in the 5-7 range.
 

The Moose is Loose

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@authentic
@CatchyTune
The more I think about it, you are probably correct in the assetment that Matthews would be rated higher on hfboards and lower in the media if he played for one of the smallest markets.

Compare Player A, Player B, Player C, Player D

Here is an interesting thread that I posted this past offseason, which stripped Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthews and Barkov of their jerseys and allowed people to rank them anonymously.

The results: Mackinnon benefits the most on hfboards from name recognition and Draisaitl/Matthews are hurt by it. Its actually pretty surprising because I thought Draisaitl/Matthews got overrated due to the large Canadian markets backing them but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Anonymously the consensus seemed to be Draisaitl>Mackinnon>=Matthews>Barkov but I don't think you'd get the same results if you compared them with their names known.
 
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CatchyTune

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Thats just your perception that there are a ton of "leaf haters" because you argue for Matthews. The pushback against Matthews is because he is put into comparisons that he doesn't belong in, people don't just naturally hate Matthews. I really like him as a player, he's killed it for me in fantasy in years past, but I side myself against Matthews more frequently than I side with him because I feel like his reputation gets inflated.
And its not just Toronto, all of the large passionate fanbases are guilty of this. Watch out if Montreal ever gets a 1C because they overrate the hell out of their centers, none of whom are even 1st liners.

If Matthews played for Arizona/Florida I agree he'd be regarded as underrated because he wouldn't be considered a top 5 forward or a top 10 player because of his lack of national attention. With leaf nation trying to say he is a top 2/3 player he gets overrated. Reality is he is in the 5-7 range.
Yes i actually agree with that. IMO he is 7th or 8th. but Barkov is not one of the guys ahead of him...
 

authentic

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I agree with that statement.

But in the same vein, if Barkov and Matthews switched jerseys, I have 0 doubt Barkov would be considered the better player on both hfboards and the especially the media.

So you really think Barkov is better than Matthews? Hmmm. Not sure about that one lol
 

The Moose is Loose

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Yes i actually agree with that. IMO he is 7th or 8th. but Barkov is not one of the guys ahead of him...
I think we’re on the same page. I had him ranked 8th coming into this season, with the year he’s had I’d feel comfortable bumping him up to 6th over Crosby and Panarin. But this is a poll for 2nd best player in the league, Matthews isn’t there.


The jump in ranking is assuming he has a solid playoffs, can lead Toronto out of the 1st round (both of which I think will happen).
 

The Moose is Loose

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So you really think Barkov is better than Matthews? Hmmm. Not sure about that one lol
I don’t. I think Matthews is the better player (not my much though)


I’m saying if Barkov was a leaf and Matthews was a panther I have very little doubt Barkov would be considered the better player on these boards and the reason for this is the discrepancy in fan base size. It does impact how players are perceived.
 

authentic

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Jan 28, 2015
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@CatchyTune
The more I think about it, you are probably correct in the assetment that Matthews would be rated higher on hfboards and lower in the media if he played for one of the smallest markets.

Compare Player A, Player B, Player C, Player D

Here is an interesting thread that I posted this past offseason, which stripped Draisaitl, Mackinnon, Matthews and Barkov of their jerseys and allowed people to rank them anonymously.

The results: Mackinnon benefits the most on hfboards from name recognition and Draisaitl/Matthews are hurt by it. Its actually pretty surprising because I thought Draisaitl/Matthews got overrated due to the large Canadian markets backing them but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Anonymously the consensus seemed to be Draisaitl>Mackinnon>=Matthews>Barkov but I don't think you'd get the same results if you compared them with their names known.

The reason why MacKinnom benefits the most though is because of his playoffs, and for good reason. He's the one player I won't argue too strongly Matthews is better than even if I believe he is currently 2nd when healthy. Otherwise yes this is not surprising really.
 

authentic

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Jan 28, 2015
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I think we’re on the same page. I had him ranked 8th coming into this season, with the year he’s had I’d feel comfortable bumping him up to 6th over Crosby and Panarin. But this is a poll for 2nd best player in the league, Matthews isn’t there.


The jump in ranking is assuming he has a solid playoffs, can lead Toronto out of the 1st round (both of which I think will happen).

Okay sorry I concluded that you thought Barkov would be better since you said if they switched teams Barkov would be considered ranker higher in the media and on hfboards whereas right now he is ranked higher on hfboards already, so being already 1/2, then 2/2 with the switch would make it seem that in reality Barkov is actually better.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
Jan 8, 2016
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I think we’re on the same page. I had him ranked 8th coming into this season, with the year he’s had I’d feel comfortable bumping him up to 6th over Crosby and Panarin. But this is a poll for 2nd best player in the league, Matthews isn’t there.


The jump in ranking is assuming he has a solid playoffs, can lead Toronto out of the 1st round (both of which I think will happen).
for me Matthews hasnt passed either of those guys yet. McD/Mack/Panarin/Hedman/Kuch/Crosby are ahead with a couple other guys debatable for me. one guy i moved Matthews past this year was Josi.

i have a hard time seeing him surpass Crosby this year, i think he will need to have a strong regular year next year to move into the top 5.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
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I don’t. I think Matthews is the better player (not my much though)


I’m saying if Barkov was a leaf and Matthews was a panther I have very little doubt Barkov would be considered the better player on these boards and the reason for this is the discrepancy in fan base size. It does impact how players are perceived.
well there is a difference between Toronto (very large fanbase), Florida (very small fanbase), and just a regular sized fanbase.

it might effect how they are perceived but to be honest nothing we say on here actually matters. i think i would be able to decipher Matthews being a better player in another organization.

and thats another thing, Matthews doesnt blow Barkov out of the water. its relatively close. Matthews is top 7-ish and Barkov could realistically be as high as 10 or 11 for me.
 

The Moose is Loose

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for me Matthews hasnt passed either of those guys yet. McD/Mack/Panarin/Hedman/Kuch/Crosby are ahead with a couple other guys debatable for me. one guy i moved Matthews past this year was Josi.

i have a hard time seeing him surpass Crosby this year, i think he will need to have a strong regular year next year to move into the top 5.
well there is a difference between Toronto (very large fanbase), Florida (very small fanbase), and just a regular sized fanbase.

it might effect how they are perceived but to be honest nothing we say on here actually matters. i think i would be able to decipher Matthews being a better player in another organization.

and thats another thing, Matthews doesnt blow Barkov out of the water. its relatively close. Matthews is top 7-ish and Barkov could realistically be as high as 10 or 11 for me.
I personally have Draisaitl ahead of multiple of those guys. Draisaitl's numbers over the past 3 years have been utterly insane. They're impossible to argue against at this point.
Draisaitl had a pace almost identical to Kucherov with more goal scoring and played the more important position. Kucherov had his 128 point season on one of the most stacked teams in NHL history, and the strongest roster in the post 2005 lockout era, Draisaitl matched that playing with significantly weaker players + McDavid.

McDavid/Mackinnon/Draisaitl/Hedman make up the top 4 for me. The next tier is Kucherov/Panarin/Crosby/Matthews and maybe Kane

As for Barkov, I agree he is close to Matthews. He's probably 10th for me, he has had an excellent year. I know what we say hear doesn't matter but the overall volume of discussion about a player definitely raises their capital, especially from a media standpoint. It's one of the reasons that I think flashy players are given nods over consistent players because they're making highlight reels every week and giving the impression they're scoring all the time. Example: McDavid is a lot more flashy but at the end of the day over the past 3 years he only has 11 more points (and 15 less goals) than Draisaitl, it's hard to argue that he is significantly more effective.
 

CatchyTune

JOHN TAVARES IS A MAPLE LEAF
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I personally have Draisaitl ahead of multiple of those guys. Draisaitl's numbers over the past 3 years have been utterly insane. They're impossible to argue against at this point.
Draisaitl had a pace almost identical to Kucherov with more goal scoring and played the more important position. Kucherov had his 128 point season on one of the most stacked teams in NHL history, and the strongest roster in the post 2005 lockout era, Draisaitl matched that playing with significantly weaker players + McDavid.

McDavid/Mackinnon/Draisaitl/Hedman make up the top 4 for me. The next tier is Kucherov/Panarin/Crosby/Matthews and maybe Kane

As for Barkov, I agree he is close to Matthews. He's probably 10th for me, he has had an excellent year. I know what we say hear doesn't matter but the overall volume of discussion about a player definitely raises their capital, especially from a media standpoint. It's one of the reasons that I think flashy players are given nods over consistent players because they're making highlight reels every week and giving the impression they're scoring all the time.
i have a few guys like Kucherov/Panarin/Matthews/Crosby above Draisaitl, due to Draisaitls point totals being boosted playing next to McDavid.

Someone like Panarin producing at a 120 point pace playing with Ryan freakin' Strome is much much more impressive to me.

Mackinnon/Kucherov/Panarin are all in consideration to be 2nd best offensive player behind McDavid.

Hedman is always there becuase he is far and away the best defenceman in the league. He is the McDavid of defenceman.

Kane is almost becoming a Panarin type situation with the talent in Chicago diminishing around him, mostly due to injuries this year. he probably cracks my top 10 this year.
 

pcruz

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Mar 7, 2013
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Thats just your perception that there are a ton of "leaf haters" because you argue for Matthews. The pushback against Matthews is because he is put into comparisons that he doesn't belong in, people don't just naturally hate Matthews. I really like him as a player, he's killed it for me in fantasy in years past, but I side myself against Matthews more frequently than I side with him because I feel like his reputation gets inflated.
And its not just Toronto, all of the large passionate fanbases are guilty of this. Watch out if Montreal ever gets a 1C because they overrate the hell out of their centers, none of whom are even 1st liners.

If Matthews played for Arizona/Florida I agree he'd be regarded as underrated because he wouldn't be considered a top 5 forward or a top 10 player because of his lack of national attention. With leaf nation trying to say he is a top 2/3 player he gets overrated. Reality is he is in the 5-7 range.

The proof is recent.

Phil Kessel was derided as a "locker room cancer", a player who some suggested was the worst in the league, a fat bum to would never amount to anything, the kind of player that only cares for himself and would never win anything.

The season he left the Leafs, he should have won the Conn Smythe.
The next year, he was all of a sudden beloved again, appreciated for his play in the playoffs and for his contribution to the cup win.
That was followed by yet another cup win. This time, he played well in the playoffs, but not at a Conn Smythe level.
 

The Moose is Loose

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i have a few guys like Kucherov/Panarin/Matthews/Crosby above Draisaitl, due to Draisaitls point totals being boosted playing next to McDavid.

Someone like Panarin producing at a 120 point pace playing with Ryan freakin' Strome is much much more impressive to me.

Mackinnon/Kucherov/Panarin are all in consideration to be 2nd best offensive player behind McDavid.

Hedman is always there becuase he is far and away the best defenceman in the league. He is the McDavid of defenceman.

Kane is almost becoming a Panarin type situation with the talent in Chicago diminishing around him, mostly due to injuries this year. he probably cracks my top 10 this year.
But how much more is Draisaitl's point totals boosted? I want to hear your guess

Matthews plays next to Marner and some elite PP players (Marner/Tavares/Nylander/Rielly)
Mackinnon plays with Rantanen and some elite PP players (Rantanen/Makar/Landeskog)
Kucherov plays with Point and some elite PP players (Stamkos/Point/Hedman/Palat)

Obviously McDavid is a generational talent but Draisaitl has proven he is no passenger, and he only plays with McDavid some of the time, when Draisaitl isn't with McDavid, he has less support than everyone else listed- Panarin, Crosby, Matthews, Kucherov, Kane etc... because he has Kahun, Yamamoto, Kassain and sometimes RNH. I don't think Draisaitl's spot is more ideal scenario than the one Matthews/Mackinnon/Kucherov/McDavid are given.
 

The Moose is Loose

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The proof is recent.

Phil Kessel was derided as a "locker room cancer", a player who some suggested was the worst in the league, a fat bum to would never amount to anything, the kind of player that only cares for himself and would never win anything.

The season he left the Leafs, he should have won the Conn Smythe.
The next year, he was all of a sudden beloved again, appreciated for his play in the playoffs and for his contribution to the cup win.
That was followed by yet another cup win. This time, he played well in the playoffs, but not at a Conn Smythe level.
I'm confused what you're pointing out. Kessel elevated his play and more importantly got into a situation where he was the tertiary offensive threat rather than the primary offense driver. He excelled in that role.
 

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