25 teams want equal chance for Crosby

[JohnnyReb]

All of you equal chance people who are fans of big market teams, repeat after me, you will feel better for being honest, I promise you.

'I, big market fan, used to having the proverbial silver spoon in my mouth among hockey fans, want my shot at Crosby because I am used to getting my way and want that to continue, deserving of it or not.'

Now I will admit that as a fan of a team who has had it rough of late, I want an unequal weighted lottery because any slight advantage that would give, I truly believe is reflected in what within a very close degree would have happened last year. True, there would be some movement, but mostly in the middle, not top to bottom, bottom to top. And in the end, even with Crosby the lower teams would be still pretty sad teams next year and for some years to come. The Top teams? Merely a reloading, Crosby would be the icing that would put them favorites for the cup. I still do not see how anyone can defend other than this.

Sort of like beating up a homeless guy to take his lunch bag from him that the local charity gave him because you do not feel like crossing the street to go to Wendys isn't it?

But some of you really won't care to get that analogy, will you?

'I, small market fan, used to excusing my team's incompetent management by blaming a lack of money, want my shot at Crosby because now that I am getting my way financially, I want that to continue, deserving of it or not.'

Sort of like that homeless guy complaining that the free lunch bag given to him by the local charity is not enough because it didn't come with a free university education and corner office job.

But you really don't care to get that analogy, will you?

(see? two can play the hysterics game)

 

[Wetcoaster]

One possibility is to look at the team records over the past 5 years.

Put 30 balls in the hopper for the last place team, 29 for the second last and so on until you finish with 1 ball for the top team. Then roll the hopper and pull out the first ball. Once a team has been selected then any further balls for that team are void or you could simply remove all remaining balls for that team and continue.

Or you design a computer program that will automatically eliminate that team once it is drawn and set it up in slot machine like device or perhaps a wheel of fortune a la the way it was done when Vancouver and Buffalo entered the league and the draft order was set.

If using a wheel, this time make sure Prez Gary can actually read the numbers unlike Commissioner Clarence Campbell. For those of you unfamiliar with that bit of Canucks loser lore here is the story of how Vancouver "won" the right to draft Gilbert Perrault. It is something many long-suffering Canucks fans have referred to as ..... THE WHEEL OF MISFORTUNE

This defining moment occurred BEFORE the Canucks played their first NHL game and IMHO it set the tone for the coming years symbolizing the Canucks futility. Of course it took place at the Queen Elizabeth Hotel in Montreal which was the then Commissioner Clarence Campbell's home away from home.

After the NHL tossed scraps to Vancouver and Buffalo in the Expansion Draft (Buffalo won the coin toss and selected Tom Webster and Vancouver took Gary Doak), the two expansion teams were on deck to determine who selected first in the amateur entry draft. The prize was the scintillating (term was copyright by Danny Gallivan) Gilbert Perreault who was almost universally hailed as the next superstar in waiting.

Having done the coin toss, the NHL brass decided they needed to jazz things up and decorated a Crown and Anchor wheel with odd and even numbers. The Canucks took the evens as they had the choice having lost the coin toss and Commish Clarence (no Vanna White in those days) spun the Wheel of Misfortune.

The wheel stops and the Commish bellows "Number Two" (for the arithmetically challenged that is an even number). The Canucks management team - GM Bud Poile and coach Hal Laycoe - were celebrating when Buffalo GM Punch Imlach brought to everyone's attention that it was really the number eleven and not the Roman numeral "II" which the Commish had misread.

The Sabres happily took Perreault where he played his entire career over 17 seasons, 1191 gms, 512g, 814a, 1326pts and was inducted in the Hall of Fame in 1990.

The Canucks then settled for Dale Tallon who spent 3 seasons in Vancouver and 7 in the CHL, AHL and NHL with Chicago and Pittsburgh (642 NHL games, 98g, 238a, 336pts and currently assistant to GM Bob Pulford in Chicago - enough said). The Canucks could not decide whether to play Tallon at forward or defense so they switched him back and forth and he became accomplished at neither position.

BTW the next two players selected in the Draft were Reggie Leach and Rick MacLeish who would be instrumental in the success of the Broad Street Bullies of the 1970's. OHHHHH… and selected at number eight by the Leafs was a one-dimensional offensive player by the name of Darryl Sittler.

The Canucks amateur draft "success" would continue almost unabated throughout their history - some also refer to it as the "Curse of the Roman Numeral". Other long suffering Canucks fans refer to it as "business as usual".

 

[Jaded-Fan]

'I, small market fan, used to excusing my team's incompetent management by blaming a lack of money, want my shot at Crosby because now that I am getting my way financially, I want that to continue, deserving of it or not.'

Sort of like that homeless guy complaining that the free lunch bag given to him by the local charity is not enough because it didn't come with a free university education and corner office job.

But you really don't care to get that analogy, will you?

(see? two can play the hysterics game)

Incompetent management? Not that it makes a difference in the reasons behind a draft in any sport why a team sucks, but granted some management was incompetent, and some management has been pretty damn good overall over the years but had to adjust, unlike some teams, to an environment where 2 out of 3 teams lost money. So?

In the end, the choice is not a college education, but only a lunch bag, and you know it. You all still will have your Forsbergs and Sakics, and a dozen players besides better than anyone on any of the five lowest teams when next year starts. With that in mind, if you had to choose between giving the lunch bag to the homeless guy or to the guy who has been, and in the near future will be, eating in five star restaurants who are you going to choose?

Your analogies are built on sand when it comes to the facts that support your argument, and everyone here knows it. It is only games and lawyering if you are making the sun seem to be the moon and day seem to be night. And any argument where Crosby ends up on a Colorado, Detroit, Toronto, Tampa Bay, etc. etc. is trying to turn Day into Night. And you know it.

 

[rework]

I, big market team fan, am tired of all the whining of the little market team fans!

Look around the league right now. Assuming there even is a season next year, assuming we get the $35M cap all the small market fans embrace, the landscape of the NHL will change so radically that the standings from last season will be pretty much irrelevent. As will future designations of big and small market teams since there will be a cap. This is as close to a fresh start as the NHL will ever get. There are big market teams that don't even have enough to guys under contract to ice a full team. There is no reason to bias where Crosby goes one way or another.

The best solution would be to take this missed season as an opportunity to raise the draft age (as I read they want to do) and skip this draft entirely, play a season and then draft based on real standings.

 

[Lanny MacDonald*]

You really went out on a limb with that opinion . . . I salute your bravery.

You really went worked hard to come up with that line. . . I salute your originality.

 

[alecfromtherock]

I say, let 'em have an equal chance. 0% for all 25 of them.

0% for 25 teams is considered equal, but that will not stop the fans of those teams to cry foul because they are intentionally being cut out of the Crosby draft.

0% chance for playoffs teams sounds reasonable to myself.

Even with 16 teams out of the #1 draft choice there should still be a weighed draft for the remaining 14 teams.

Although I am a HABS fan teams such as Pittsburgh, Chicago, Washington deserve/need the #1 pick, not TO or DET.

If a team wants Crosby so badly they will just have to offer him the most money in year 5(assuming that the 4-year 850K rookie salary cap gets passed) Giving one player a lot of money will effect your teams overall spending under a salary cap system.

Crosby already has a multi-year multi-million contract with RBK, in other words buying Crosby might not be an option for teams.

The only saving grace that I have as a HABS fan not drafting Crosby #1 is that Montreal is his favourite team and he has already stated that he would play for the HABS if given the choice.

My bet is Crosby eventually goes to Montreal after helping hockey south of the boarder for X years.

 

[HockeyCritter]

Sorry if this has been suggested already, but with the million threads discussing draft order, I am not about to go through all of them. What if they broke it down like this:

All based on 2003-04 standings...

-Bottom 5 teams each get 5 lottery balls
-Remaining 9 non-playoff teams get 3 each
-16 playoff teams each get 1


that way each team has a shot at Crosby, and the teams that "really need" him have a better chance than the Detroits, Colorados, Philly's etc..

In my opinion Washington shouldn't have a shot at him even though they were in the bottom five, as they got Ovechkin in the last draft, and the chances of them getting the first overall pick again would've been slim to none, but again that is just my opinion and I know it would never fly so that's why I didn't include it above.

Should Atlanta be eliminated because they already drafted Heatley, Kovalchuk, and Lehtonen? How about Columbus because they drafted Nash and Zherdev? Hey, let’s kick the Panthers out because they have Bouwmeester and Norton. No need to include Pittsburgh because they already have Malkin, Whitney, and Fleury.

And statistically, I think Washington had a better chance at landing the overall number one pick than Toronto, Detroit, Philadelphia, or even Tampa (not saying it would happen, but it is a reasonable conclusion).

 

[JohnnyReb]

You really went worked hard to come up with that line. . . I salute your originality.

Thanks!

 

[signalIInoise]

If the NHL gives a completely equal chance to all and a loaded team ends up with Crosby the NHL will lose all credibility that they gained with me during this lockout.

They *gained* credibility through the lockout?? How does that work? I can understand thinking that one side or the other lost credibility (personally I think both lost) -- but gained?

 

[SharkGirl27]

Should Atlanta be eliminated because they already drafted Heatley, Kovalchuk, and Lehtonen? How about Columbus because they drafted Nash and Zherdev? Hey, let’s kick the Panthers out because they have Bouwmeester and Norton. No need to include Pittsburgh because they already have Malkin, Whitney, and Fleury.

And statistically, I think Washington had a better chance at landing the overall number one pick than Toronto, Detroit, Philadelphia, or even Tampa (not saying it would happen, but it is a reasonable conclusion).

I said because they had the number 1 pick last year, not because they suck in general and have had top 5 picks consistantly over the last few years. I also said this was MY OPIONION! I don't criticize you for whoever your favorite team is, or for presumably being at least in your teens and having a cartoon character as your avatar, I wouldn't do it, I am not in grade school anymore, but again everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

 

[SharkGirl27]

I remain with what I said above, if a loaded team gets Crosby while a team that sucks does not, and watches that loaded team go for yet another Stanley Cup run with that icing on the cake while CBJ for instance picks 30th, it will be a total joke. And everyone here knows it.

How do the Rangers fall into this? They are always loaded, they have a ton of money and they haven't made the playoffs in 7 years.

 

[Matty]

All of you equal chance people who are fans of big market teams, repeat after me, you will feel better for being honest, I promise you.

What does equal chance have to do with big markets? Did LA (big market) make the playoffs? Did NYR (big market) make the playoffs. Did Minny (big market) make the playoffs? Did Chicago (big market just a screwed up owner) make the playoffs? Did Washington (big market) make the playoffs?

Is Calgary a big market? Is Nashville a big market? Is Ottawa? Vancouver? Tampa Bay?

This big market vs. small market debate is crap IMO. This has nothing to do with rich teams vs. poor teams.

The next season to be played has a high likelyhood of seeing the biggest shuffling in the standings the NHL has seen. To pretend that anyone has even the slightest idea of who will end up where is ridiculous IMO.

The fairest thing would be the move the draft age up to 19. If they must have a draft though, then equal chance becomes the fairest thing. And if Columbus/Pitts and others continue to suck the next season, why then they'll get their chance at the American phenom.

 

[JohnnyReb]

Incompetent management? Not that it makes a difference in the reasons behind a draft in any sport why a team sucks, but granted some management was incompetent, and some management has been pretty damn good overall over the years but had to adjust, unlike some teams, to an environment where 2 out of 3 teams lost money. So?

In the end, the choice is not a college education, but only a lunch bag, and you know it. You all still will have your Forsbergs and Sakics, and a dozen players besides better than anyone on any of the five lowest teams when next year starts. With that in mind, if you had to choose between giving the lunch bag to the homeless guy or to the guy who has been, and in the near future will be, eating in five star restaurants who are you going to choose?

Your analogies are built on sand when it comes to the facts that support your argument, and everyone here knows it. It is only games and lawyering if you are making the sun seem to be the moon and day seem to be night. And any argument where Crosby ends up on a Colorado, Detroit, Toronto, Tampa Bay, etc. etc. is trying to turn Day into Night. And you know it.

Hmmm... dozens of players better than anyone on the five lowest teams, eh? Better than Heately, Kovalchouk and Lehtonen? Nash and Zherdev? Jokinnen, Louongo, Bowmeester? Granted, your Penguins suck, but...

I still don't get how one team can slash upwards of $30-40 million from its payroll, and another team add $10-15, so that the difference between their respective payrolls is almost, if not completely eliminated, AND the second team still be guaranteed to suck more than the first. Will these good teams get by on their good looks and charm?

Team A, historically good: Payroll - $37 million
Team B, historically bad: Payroll - $35 million

Oh yeah, its pretty obvious which team is going to be good, and which is going to be bad.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Hmmm... dozens of players better than anyone on the five lowest teams, eh? Better than Heately, Kovalchouk and Lehtonen? Nash and Zherdev? Jokinnen, Louongo, Bowmeester? Granted, your Penguins suck, but...

I still don't get how one team can slash upwards of $30-40 million from its payroll, and another team add $10-15, so that the difference between their respective payrolls is almost, if not completely eliminated, AND the second team still be guaranteed to suck more than the first. Will these good teams get by on their good looks and charm?

Team A, historically good: Payroll - $37 million
Team B, historically bad: Payroll - $35 million

Oh yeah, its pretty obvious which team is going to be good, and which is going to be bad.

The spread between the teams is going to be much wider than that. The NHL wants $10 million, NHLPA wants $20 million. I can guarentee that the difference between the highest spender and lowest will not be $2 million though, Some teams will have at least a 50% higher payroll than others.

 

[HockeyCritter]

I said because they had the number 1 pick last year, not because they suck in general and have had top 5 picks consistantly over the last few years. I also said this was MY OPIONION! I don't criticize you for whoever your favorite team is, or for presumably being at least in your teens and having a cartoon character as your avatar, I wouldn't do it, I am not in grade school anymore, but again everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Unfortunately there have been a plethora of <insert bottom five team> doesn’t deserve the number one (two, or three) pick because they were previously rewarded for mismanaging their franchise. Your post certainly intonated that. If your intent was to address the statistical possibility of winning the lottery in two successive years, the use of the world “shouldn’t†muddled the meaning.

I think it rather interesting that you resorted to a rather sanctimonious admonishment of my position (which was clearly sardonic in nature) by quickly dismissing me as a mere teenager or grade school student simply based on my choice of avatar. Sadley, you are woefully mistaken on numerous levels.

 

[jacketracket*]

... saying that 'however much better' CBJ's chances (the team most favored in that system, not my team btw) ...

You're not fooling me with this, J-F. I know you're a closet CBJ fan.

 

[PecaFan]

Sort of like that homeless guy complaining that the free lunch bag given to him by the local charity is not enough because it didn't come with a free university education and corner office job.

(see? two can play the hysterics game)

If you're going to try the analogy game, try and get it right. The homeless guy isn't asking for more than he usually gets. Your analogy would be correct if the bad teams were asking for more draft picks, etc.

No, a better analogy is that an unemployed guy went to pick up his normal cheque, and there were a bunch of millionaires demanding cheques as well, on the premise that they *might* be unemployed in the future.

It's really quite simple. High draft picks are compensation for past suckage. A means test, essentially. Until you actually experience it, you don't qualify.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

I, big market team fan, am tired of all the whining of the little market team fans!

Look around the league right now. Assuming there even is a season next year, assuming we get the $35M cap all the small market fans embrace, the landscape of the NHL will change so radically that the standings from last season will be pretty much irrelevent.

...........

I highly doubt that there will be all that much upheaval as some argue here no matter the new CBA. Once more, it is very funny to hear some make that argument here and the opposite in other threads, but let us move that aside for now. But let us say that you are right? Welcome Mr. Kessel to Detroit, Toronto, etc. That is how those teams get rewarded once they actually do prove the theory that they are going to suck next year. Or should they get Crosby and have the best chance the year after at Kessel?

There is no way to legitimately argue this that makes an equal chance for all fair. And this is from a guy who has to see both sides for a living to make deals.

 

[HockeyCritter]

How do the Rangers fall into this? They are always loaded, they have a ton of money and they haven't made the playoffs in 7 years.

Barring the raising of the draft age, would not the best scenario be to use seasonal results to determine draft order?

 

[Jaded-Fan]

You're not fooling me with this, J-F. I know you're a closet CBJ fan.

Ugh. But I will grant you that I could easily stomach and strongly support your getting a top pick in this upcoming draft than a team like Detroit or Toronto.

 

[JohnnyReb]

The spread between the teams is going to be much wider than that. The NHL wants $10 million, NHLPA wants $20 million. I can guarentee that the difference between the highest spender and lowest will not be $2 million though, Some teams will have at least a 50% higher payroll than others.

Almost undoubtedly.

Can you, however, guarantee me which teams these will be? Do you know for sure that Atlanta, Florida, Pittsburgh, and Columbus are going to remain at the bottom of the salary structure? Or are you just guessing? Speculating, as it were?

Lets see, what was Minnesota's payroll last year? I wonder what their team would look like if they added Jose Theodore and Saku Koivu, both of whom may be UFA's under a new CBA? Lots of good Montreal connections in Minnesota, no? Riseborough, Lemaire, Tremblay. Heck, even Mikko Koivu. If Minnesota has $20 million worth of salary cap room, and Montreal only has, say, $5 million, who is going to win a bidding war?

Can you say with any certainty that isn't/wouldn't have happened? Of course not. If you can predict the future and/or alternate universes, I would like some lottery numbers please.

You are making the classic stock market mistake of using past performance to predict future results. And then you are saying "we deserve" because of said predictions.

 

[HockeyCritter]

I do wonder if there would have been as much strife over the draft if it were anybody but Crosby. After seeing so much hang wringing and anguish over one little boy the evil side of me wants him to fail (the the human side of me wants him to do well).

 

[SharkGirl27]

I think it rather interesting that you resorted to a rather sanctimonious admonishment of my position (which was clearly sardonic in nature) by quickly dismissing me as a mere teenager or grade school student simply based on my choice of avatar. Sadley, you are woefully mistaken on numerous levels.

This is the last response I am going to make to you because I am not going to get into a war of words on a message board. First of all I said you are AT LEAST a teenager not that you were one, second I was NOT saying anything negative about your position, only that you should respect other people's opinions because I clearly stated my feelings on Washington were my opinion. And again, I said that it was your choice to have a cartoon avatar, which is fine with me I don't care what it is, I was using that as an example of one of your choices that I personally would not make as an adult, we all have our opinions and we are all entitled to them, people shouldn't be judged based on them, if I had stated in a factoral manor that Washington can not have the first pick that would be different I would be expecting to get flamed for that, but it was my opinion that they shouldn't get it, big difference

 

[JohnnyReb]

If you're going to try the analogy game, try and get it right. The homeless guy isn't asking for more than he usually gets. Your analogy would be correct if the bad teams were asking for more draft picks, etc.

No, a better analogy is that an unemployed guy went to pick up his normal cheque, and there were a bunch of millionaires demanding cheques as well, on the premise that they *might* be unemployed in the future.

It's really quite simple. High draft picks are compensation for past suckage. A means test, essentially. Until you actually experience it, you don't qualify.

They are asking for more than they usually get. They want TWO high draft picks for sucking. Not to mention extra money to pay for players that other teams can no longer keep.

As many have stated, those teams with past suckage have already been compensated. Many will be compensated financially, if not through outright cash donations (revenue sharing), then through the levelling of the playing field which is supposed to ensure parity, and that stars stay on their teams.

Unless you think their 2004 picks should all go back into the draft, and teams with picks 1-10 not be allowed to sign any free agents next year?

 

[DARKSIDE]

All of you equal chance people who are fans of big market teams, repeat after me, you will feel better for being honest, I promise you.

'I, big market fan, used to having the proverbial silver spoon in my mouth among hockey fans, want my shot at Crosby because I am used to getting my way and want that to continue, deserving of it or not.'

Now I will admit that as a fan of a team who has had it rough of late, I want an unequal weighted lottery because any slight advantage that would give, I truly believe is reflected in what within a very close degree would have happened last year. True, there would be some movement, but mostly in the middle, not top to bottom, bottom to top. And in the end, even with Crosby the lower teams would be still pretty sad teams next year and for some years to come. The Top teams? Merely a reloading, Crosby would be the icing that would put them favorites for the cup. I still do not see how anyone can defend other than this.

Sort of like beating up a homeless guy to take his lunch bag from him that the local charity gave him because you do not feel like crossing the street to go to Wendys isn't it?

But some of you really won't care to get that analogy, will you?

Would you care to elaborate on whom the so-called top teams are? Because, there are a number of teams that will be moving up and some taking a step back.

Here's my top teams that I wouldn't want to see get Crosby. However, if they win the lottery, so be it. We will all have to live with it. But in my mind, there are only a handful of teams I consider as the best:

Top Teams:

1.Tampa Bay
2.Ottawa
3. Philadelphia

Teams taking a step back:

Detroit - Age & Free agency
Colorado - Age & Injuries
Toronto - Age & Free agency
New Jersey - Age & Free agency

Teams on the way up:

Calgary
San Jose
Florida
Chicago
Buffalo
Atlanta
And yes, Pittsburgh and Washington

Worse:

Carolina, so lets just give them Crosby if we truly want to help a weak Sister!

In addition, you listed Boston. They have half roster signed at the present time and if a team is able to reload under a cap, then the GM did a fine job. The game Hockey and its teams will be much different in 2005 or 2006.