25 Best Forward Seasons Since 2005 - #19
- Thread starter GlitchMarner
- Start date
TheGuiminator
I’ll be damned King, I’ll be damned
- Oct 23, 2018
- 2,004
- 1,724
McDavid 2017
- Art Ross with 100 points (0nly one to hit the milestone)
- Hart
- Lindsay
- 1st AST
- Assist leader
- PPG leader
- Art Ross with 100 points (0nly one to hit the milestone)
- Hart
- Lindsay
- 1st AST
- Assist leader
- PPG leader
Appleyard
Registered User
In terms of voting options Giroux 2018 was arguably better than Giroux 2012 and for sure Giroux 2014.
Voted Crosby 2013
Crosby 2017, McDavid 2017 and Malkin 2008. Those are the 4 that should go next (a bit open on the order).
Crosby 2017, McDavid 2017 and Malkin 2008. Those are the 4 that should go next (a bit open on the order).
Crosby 19 is probably his strongest overall season still on the board when you look at his 2 way play and team dynamics.
Interesting that somehow someone voted Ovi for 2006.
That's a real reach.
tony d
Registered User
LegendaryNumber5
C-A-P-S
Nathaniel Skywalker
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2013
- 13,831
- 5,401
Sid 16/17. Shouldn’t the World Cup count as well. As it was an nhl sanctioned tour by a month prior to the season?
- Feb 10, 2010
- 13,631
- 10,264
In hindsight, the Pens are proving that they are a great team without Crosby, and Sid was on the ice for the same quantity of goals against as Ovechkin last season.
The two foundational pillars of your argument are garbage.
Doesnt count, OP says regular season only.
If you could cherry pick though and include all - going from June 12th 2016 to June 11th 2017 would see Crosby #1 on list.
2 cups
2 smythes
World cup mvp
And all the regular season stuff from 2017.
Nathaniel Skywalker
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2013
- 13,831
- 5,401
Ovechkin has not had a better season than Crosby 18-19 since 09-10. That is a fact. Or a season better than 16/17
Crosby carried the team on his back last season, and stepped up big time when they needed to turn things around. "Team dynamics" - to use that term - are strong.
Pens are finding a way to win without him this season.
Those two things arent mutually exclusive.
- Feb 10, 2010
- 13,631
- 10,264
Except he absolutely didn't, and Pens fans were calling for Letang to win the Norris as late as mid February - something you all seem to have forgotten:
Letang for Norris?
bobholly said:
They aren't though. It was always a big lie, and I said so at the time.
A team with Malkin, Letang, Kessel, Guentzel, a great coach, and excellent depth clearly wasn't being carried. I don't see how this can be credibly disagreed with.
Unfortunately for you guys - and you could not have foreseen this - your ridiculous theory is now being tested, and the results are in: The Penguins were and are a very good team even without Sid. They currently have a .704 winning percentage without Crosby.
You were utterly wrong, and I was right. But look on the bright side - Sid got a completely undeserved Hart 2 out of it.
Last edited:
- Feb 10, 2010
- 13,631
- 10,264
I'd take Ovechkin's 18-19 over Crosby's massively overrated 18-19. Or Ovie's Hart '13 season. Or his Hart runner-up '15 season (you know, cause it was actually deserved).
The thing about Crosby's '19 season is he greatly benefitted from Canadian hockey media propaganda. Toews benefitted from the Canadian media for a brief time and it ridiculously elevated him over Malkin. But that was just a small taste compared to what Crosby gets. It's bizarre to watch.
Nathaniel Skywalker
Registered User
- Oct 18, 2013
- 13,831
- 5,401
Explain how ovechkins 81 points in 81 games is better than Crosby’s 100 points in 79 games with a much better all around game 4th in selke with 30+ 1st place votes. And his 56 points in 48 games is better lol? Come on. Make a poll 16-17 or 18-19 vs either ovechkin season. He will get cleaned out easily.
That has a lot to do with Jarry playing out of his mind and Malkin actually playing well, unlike last season.
And for the 2nd part, Crosby had a 5v5 GA/60 of 2.02 last season, while Ovechkin's was 2.83. I'm not sure what you're looking at, but it's garbage. You can argue it was more because of his offense and possession ability rather than defense, but Crosby's underlying metrics were fantastic last season in terms of driving play and limiting goals against. You used to be good at holding people accountable for their biases against Crosby, but now you just seem to throw poop against the wall to discredit him to see what sticks
- Feb 10, 2010
- 13,631
- 10,264
Well, here's what I am looking at - scroll down to the "NHL Miscellaneous" chart and look at "TGA" (on-ice total goals against). In 18-19 it's 84 for Ovie and 83 for Sid. Do you think hockey reference is just plain wrong?
Sidney Crosby Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Alex Ovechkin Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
Last edited:
- Feb 10, 2010
- 13,631
- 10,264
Anyway, no, hockey reference isn't wrong.
The problem is people are looking at 5v5 stats in a vacuum and ignoring other important situational defensive stats, such as Crosby being on the ice for a whopping 13 short handed goals against (which is actually tied for the worst season for SH goals against any player has had over the past 10 seasons):
NHL.com Stats
Sid was also on the ice for 5 powerplay goals against but I don't think you give much blame for what small PK duties Sid actually has.
Blaming a player for PP goals against is asinine. It's very clearly luck based.
He was also on the ice for 13 empty netters against, which again is unrelated to defense, and 7 while the other team had pulled their goalie, which is basically being on the PK. The remaining 2 were ES situations that were not 5v5. 5v5 is used because it's where players actual play real defense. The rest is variance. He was great at keeping the puck out of the net last year. You have no argument against that
- Feb 10, 2010
- 13,631
- 10,264
If it's luck-based then it's a helluva coincidence that Crosby leads the NHL in powerplay SH goals against over the past 10 years, as well as last year, while not being anywhere near having the most PP minutes. The pattern is well-established over an extremely large sample of 2600 minutes:
NHL.com Stats
That ain't luck dude.
Defense = preventing goals against. Preventing goals against is always a good thing. There is no rationale for why SH goals against should be overlooked.
And no, playing 5v5 while the other team has no goalie is not like penalty killing, because skater for skater, you are NOT short handed. Preventing goals in that situation is more akin to ES than PK. Sid certainly benefits offensively from the EN aspect. The other players on this list play in EN situations as well - their stats are counted the same way.
Basically your point is "If we ignore the 253 minutes (15% of his TOI) where Sidney Crosby was statistically the absolute worst defensive player in all of hockey, then he's pretty good at defense!"
Last edited:
So it's a Pens PP problem, not Crosby. Crosby plays by the net on the PP. Expecting him to be preventing goals against on the PP is just completely ridiculous.
I'm taking about 6 on 5 situations with the opposing goalie pulled. That's essentially a PK. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous.
Crosby's offensive benefits from the empty net were actually pretty limited last year and irrelevant to this conversation. Teams push for offense and getting scored on the empty net against you is not a significant sign of defense.
You can have some criticisms for his PP and EN goals against. Having an unusually high number might suggest some issues, but those are largely luck based. Holding the shorthanded and 6 on 5 goals against him is ridiculous, especially in comparison to Ovechkin. Your argument is that, despite being great at preventing goals against in the situation where an individual player's defense has the most significant impact, getting scored against an unusual amount of time in situations that has a huge basis for luck somehow suggests he's not good at preventing goals, because you grasp at anything to try to downplay the fact that he's one of the best play drivers in the league, which doesn't jive with your basis of using production alone with a heavy goal bias to judge players.
