Player Discussion Jake Virtanen | Jake It Or Break It Edition

[Bleach Clean]

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[Bleach Clean]

Not sure what you have been watching over the first 30 games but overall Virtanen has been fine in very limited ice time. His game is still a work in progress but he has been noticeable more nights than not. You can see his game improving as the season goes along.

No way he deserves to be in Utica. He is working hard. A fair number of forwards on this team that should be out of the line up before Jake. I also think he will provide more offence if he is given more opportunity.

"Deserves" is different from development. He deserves to be in the NHL line-up over Burmistrov, agreed. Is it best for his development to be here instead of in Utica, I'm not sure. He's playing better with Gaunce and Granlund/Chaput, but we'll see how long that lasts.

His game is a "work in progress", yes. We are watching the same games. I'm not seeing the same improvement trajectory. I see good games, invisible games, and poor games. Not enough good games for my liking, so that's why Utica seems like a better alternative.

I agree with this. Jake IS quite inconsistent as his game ebbs and flows quite noticeably. At the same time that can be said of many players both on this team and around the league. The notion of sending him to the AHL until he eradicates all traces of inconsistency from his game is both unrealistic and unfair. Only the most elite players in the NHL manage consistently high play for the majority of the season and Jake will never be one of those. Hell even Boeser waxes from dominant games to invisible games and no one suggests demoting him until he is dominant every single game. Inconsistency shouldn’t be the goal, rather the quality of play (esp offensively) in his good games.

So you are attributing the position of sending him down to be akin to "eradicating all traces of inconsistency". Interesting. It's the wrong counter-argument, but interesting nonetheless.

We agree that Jake is "quite inconsistent". We just have different thresholds as to how much of that inconsistency will be withstood before change is in order. I think the fact that Jake has never been good for the majority of games at any point in his pro career lends credence to my position to send him down. But as I have noted, he will not be sent down by this regime. I just think it could help him gain offensive confidence... even now. Am I wrong to think that he could be a top6 mainstay with the Comets?

 

[alternate]

Don't believe there's anything to be gained for Jake in Utica at this point. He looks like an NHLer now on most nights. I'm fine with spoon feeding JV minutes and gradually increasing his ice time as his reactions become more instinctual.

Virtanen is someone who physically matured much quicker than he did mentally. Seems he gets what it takes to be a pro now and is on an old-school development path--start on the 4th line and earn more ice time and opportunity.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Don't believe there's anything to be gained for Jake in Utica at this point. He looks like an NHLer now on most nights. I'm fine with spoon feeding JV minutes and gradually increasing his ice time as his reactions become more instinctual.

Virtanen is someone who physically matured much quicker than he did mentally. Seems he gets what it takes to be a pro now and is on an old-school development path--start on the 4th line and earn more ice time and opportunity.

The 'gain' would be offensive confidence. He would be producing more in the AHL and maybe he would get some of his pre-draft swagger back in that department. He certainly wasn't showing it in the early going here. Actually, I don't think Virtanen has ever appeared to be as dangerous as he had been pre-draft. That Virtanen is M.I.A.

Anyways, it's not a major gripe. In the end all that matters is he becomes useful. If they think it's this way, then fine.

 

[F A N]

The 'gain' would be offensive confidence. He would be producing more in the AHL and maybe he would get some of his pre-draft swagger back in that department. He certainly wasn't showing it in the early going here. Actually, I don't think Virtanen has ever appeared to be as dangerous as he had been pre-draft. That Virtanen is M.I.A.

Anyways, it's not a major gripe. In the end all that matters is he becomes useful. If they think it's this way, then fine.

I don't disagree, but Virtanen might be one of those players who is better in the NHL than AHL. Personally, I think Virtanen needed a humbling experience and wakeup call rather than maintain his "swagger." Virtanen's underlying numbers, like his rookie season, are again pretty good. He spent a year in the AHL and what progress did he make? Certainly any improvements he made wasn't apparent on the scoresheet.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

"Deserves" is different from development. He deserves to be in the NHL line-up over Burmistrov, agreed. Is it best for his development to be here instead of in Utica, I'm not sure. He's playing better with Gaunce and Granlund/Chaput, but we'll see how long that lasts.

His game is a "work in progress", yes. We are watching the same games. I'm not seeing the same improvement trajectory. I see good games, invisible games, and poor games. Not enough good games for my liking, so that's why Utica seems like a better alternative.





So you are attributing the position of sending him down to be akin to "eradicating all traces of inconsistency". Interesting. It's the wrong counter-argument, but interesting nonetheless.

We agree that Jake is "quite inconsistent". We just have different thresholds as to how much of that inconsistency will be withstood before change is in order. I think the fact that Jake has never been good for the majority of games at any point in his pro career lends credence to my position to send him down. But as I have noted, he will not be sent down by this regime. I just think it could help him gain offensive confidence... even now. Am I wrong to think that he could be a top6 mainstay with the Comets?

Which gives you the 2017 "Willie Desjardins" Award for the best poster on HFVan,because that is precisely the way he would have done it.....

 

[Bleach Clean]

Which gives you the 2017 "Willie Desjardins" Award for the best poster on HFVan,because that is precisely the way he would have done it.....

Ummm didn't WD graduate Virtanen onto the roster too early, only to have his performance crater, forcing him to be sent down? That is the opposite of what I am saying to do... but good to know. Do you get the Benning award for being completely wrong at every point in that assessment??

 

[elitepete]

I think of Virtanen spent 30-40 more games in Utica, it would help him a lot.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Ummm didn't WD graduate Virtanen onto the roster too early, only to have his performance crater, forcing him to be sent down? That is the opposite of what I am saying to do... but good know. Do you get the Benning award for being completely wrong at every point in that assessment??

Nice try,but wrong again....the miscommunication between JV and WD is well documented...What is the [MOD] about Jake Virtanen..?..Please explain.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Fwiw the Isbister mention was more saying that sometimes a big guy w a good shot can score you 20 goals even if the rest of the game doesn't come together. He's not something I hope Jake becomes.

 

[Bleach Clean]

Nice try,but wrong again....the miscommunication between JV and WD is well documented...What is the [MOD] about Jake Virtanen..?..Please explain.

Oh there was miscommunication lol. Gotcha. They didn't develop him poorly and he didn't have to be sent down for struggling. Benning didn't come out and say he was wrong for graduating Virtanen before he was ready. WD didn't love playing his vets over his young players. McCann was also suffering from miscommunication. WD and Benning weren't wrong in how they chose to develop them.
Nope. They Can't be wrong now either...

My concern about Virtanen is that this organization still may not be developing Virtanen properly. Outlandish based on history? Give your head a shake. He's wildly inconsistent. Green has been playing him, up until recently, an average of 10 min a night. 4th like assignments. That's not ideal for a young player. Maybe some games in Utica would be better? Where he would get more playing time. Not possible? Maybe the Benning school of development is infallible? Maybe Green likes his vets too? Nah. They've got it figured out and Virtanen is flourishing on the 4th line. Forget his 35 ES goal pedigree. Let's have him hit things. That's better.

 

[DownGoesMcDavid]

I like Virtanen with Travis Green rather than sending him doen to Utica to go through yet another coah in Cull.

I think he is playing well and using his speed and body well.

Very happy to see his development.

 

[rune74]

If you think Virtanen should be in the AHL then you also believe that Guance should be?

 

[Dab]

Hoping he has a big 2nd half. Lots of injuries means plenty of opportunity for Jake...

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I like Virtanen with Travis Green rather than sending him doen to Utica to go through yet another coah in Cull.

I think he is playing well and using his speed and body well.

Very happy to see his development.

Yep. I'd be very hesitant to separate Virtanen from Green. Not because Green is a wizard who will automatically utilize Virtanen to his best potential, but because if Jake needs anything at this point in his professional career it's consistency. He might not get getting a ton of minutes, but it's not a Willie D/Tryamkin situation where the player's ice time fluctuates wildly with no rhyme or reason. Green has been fairly consistent in giving Jake predictable minutes in predictable situations, and giving him some more leash when he's having a particularly strong evening.

I think his "offensive confidence" is fine, really. He's not going to suddenly turn into Kyle Wellwood because he spent an extra 40 games on the farm. This is the player he is. He likes to bull around the ice and take low percentage shots on the fly.

 

[tantalum]

I think his "offensive confidence" is fine, really. He's not going to suddenly turn into Kyle Wellwood because he spent an extra 40 games on the farm. This is the player he is. He likes to bull around the ice and take low percentage shots on the fly.

He's a more physical Mason Raymond-type right now. I still want to see him drop that shoulder and cut to the net far more. He has the speed and strength to do that on a consistent basis. If he can do that he can likely develop into a reasonable second line player. The clock is ticking on that though. He simply loves those low percentage shots.

It's often preached that any shot is a good shot but sometimes it is very much worth passing up the shot to try to get into position for a better one. Even if you fail.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

He's a more physical Mason Raymond-type right now. I still want to see him drop that shoulder and cut to the net far more. He has the speed and strength to do that on a consistent basis. If he can do that he can likely develop into a reasonable second line player. The clock is ticking on that though. He simply loves those low percentage shots.

It's often preached that any shot is a good shot but sometimes it is very much worth passing up the shot to try to get into position for a better one. Even if you fail.

That's going to be the x-factor that determines whether or not Jake becomes an effective NHL forward or simply a fast 4th liner who can kill 10 minutes. If he learns to cruise missile himself at the net, he will create untold havoc given his speed and size. If he continues trying to be a rifleman from the top of the circle, he's going to create an unprecedented amount of odd man chances going the other direction when the shot inevitably ricochets off the glass.

I'd like him to use that damn size of his for something other than "2 hits a period". Just Bertuzzi that puck into the crease and try and capitalize off the ensuing mayhem. He can "rip the puck" but if he has a productive NHL career he's going to be a greasy scorer.

 

[Cupless44]

Why would you send a guy to Utica who was your best forward on Saturday night?

 

[Bleach Clean]

If you think Virtanen should be in the AHL then you also believe that Guance should be?

Because they're the same player? Gaunce is doing everything right, short of scoring. Virtanen is inconsistent in what he does game to game, and shift to shift -- and he scores here or there. Not the same thing.

Gaunce was one of the better AHL players when he has been down there. Even offensively. He's got nothing to learn there. Unlike Virtanen, who cannot claim the same offensive or even defensive pedigree in the AHL.

I want to see 2nd line sniper Virtanen. Not 4th line banger Virtanen. I want to see that dangerous player. He's lost it somehow, and needs to get it back. Why is it a bizarre thought to imagine that he could get that back by being fed huge minutes in the AHL in an offensive role? People seem to think that what we have witnessed is the best we could hope for, I don't think that way.

 

[tantalum]

That's going to be the x-factor that determines whether or not Jake becomes an effective NHL forward or simply a fast 4th liner who can kill 10 minutes. If he learns to cruise missile himself at the net, he will create untold havoc given his speed and size. If he continues trying to be a rifleman from the top of the circle, he's going to create an unprecedented amount of odd man chances going the other direction when the shot inevitably ricochets off the glass.

I'd like him to use that damn size of his for something other than "2 hits a period". Just Bertuzzi that puck into the crease and try and capitalize off the ensuing mayhem. He can "rip the puck" but if he has a productive NHL career he's going to be a greasy scorer.

Exactly. That's why I hated the "make a hit each shift" story. That's not what they should be encouraging him to do. They should be encouraging him to bulldog that puck down to the crease area every shift (exaggerating). Which is really what Horvat does. Horvat is the superior player of course but Virtanen as a winger should be able to achieve similar things when he's in full flight. While I have seen little to truly get excited over with Virtanen (I'm not sure he has the smarts or the skills) I'm concerned that the organization has already decided he is just a speedy grinder expected to hit.

It was the wrong pick but I think they have essentially made it worse every step of the way with his development so far. Maybe Green has a plan...get him used to using his body first and then channel that in a different way? I hope that's it but that seems overly clever for your typical NHL coach.

 

[MS]

If you think Virtanen should be in the AHL then you also believe that Guance should be?

Gaunce is playing substantial minutes in his long-term role and doing well.

Virtanen is playing well IMO and should be here based on his play ... but if he's not going to get any minutes or be trusted by the coach and is playing 8 minutes or a healthy scratch, he should probably be in Utica.

Thankfully the recent run of injuries has forced Green to play Virtanen and he's responded well.

 

[FuzzyTitus]

Also, if people think Virtanen will gain offensive confidence in Utica they should probably check Utica's center depth.

 

[tantalum]

I don't know. If a player is going to make an impact offensively in the NHL they ought to be able to make a good impact in the AHL regardless of linemates. Not having decent center depth in Utica didn't stop Goldobin from producing for instance. Not to say Goldobin will be able to make the jump but Virtanen should at this point be able to put up numbers in the AHL if he is ever going to put up numbers in the NHL.

That said, I wouldn't send him down. Many others should be on the chopping block first. But if he was I would expect him to put up very good numbers or be relegated to grinder status forever.

 

[DFAC]

I don't know. If a player is going to make an impact offensively in the NHL they ought to be able to make a good impact in the AHL regardless of linemates. Not having decent center depth in Utica didn't stop Goldobin from producing for instance. Not to say Goldobin will be able to make the jump but Virtanen should at this point be able to put up numbers in the AHL if he is ever going to put up numbers in the NHL.

That said, I wouldn't send him down. Many others should be on the chopping block first. But if he was I would expect him to put up very good numbers or be relegated to grinder status forever.

But he put up pretty bad numbers last year in the AHL so its not looking good at all....

 

[F A N]

I don't know. If a player is going to make an impact offensively in the NHL they ought to be able to make a good impact in the AHL regardless of linemates. Not having decent center depth in Utica didn't stop Goldobin from producing for instance. Not to say Goldobin will be able to make the jump but Virtanen should at this point be able to put up numbers in the AHL if he is ever going to put up numbers in the NHL.

That said, I wouldn't send him down. Many others should be on the chopping block first. But if he was I would expect him to put up very good numbers or be relegated to grinder status forever.

That's usually the case but there are a select few who are better in the NHL than the AHL.

The Goldobin comparison also isn't illustrative. Goldobin is more of a playmaker than scorer who doesn't need anyone to feed him the puck. I don't think Virtanen necessarily needs someone to pass him the puck either, but the Comets posters in the board certainly seem to think that his production was severely effected by the lack of playmaking Cs in Utica.