Post-Game Talk: #24: Senators 4 at FLYERS 3, Tuesday, Nov. 27, 2018, 7:00 p.m. ET

[deadhead]

Wow, you're really going off the deep end here. You really are feeling desperate since Hextall and his pet have failed you.

First of all, you rate Hakstol as well above run of the mill. You struggle to think of even a single flaw for him. You act as if he is equivalent to SC winners. You defend every single thing he does as if he is coaching perfection. I've made it clear, repeatedly, that I believe coaches like Berube and Stevens are worse; that guys like Bylsma or Yeo are horizontal steps; that guys like Trotz or Q are improvements.

I've been consistent on this the entire time, and if you can't understand that then the issue is on your end, not mine. Read better.

Really?

All I've stated is he had a mediocre roster and got mediocre results.

I haven't defended him, just mocked the obsession with every little coaching decision as if you can't get on the internet and find similar complaints about every NHL coach (Why does xxx play yyy more than zzz? He's an idiot!).

As I've said repeatedly, results are all that matters with a HC, not nitpicking every little decision.
Up to now, Hakstol got about what you'd expect from this roster.

Now it's much harder to upgrade a mediocre coach than a terrible coach.
Berube had more to work with than Hakstol his first three seasons and got similar results.
I didn't think Berube was terrible either, just limited, his approach got a mediocre team to the playoffs, but wasn't sustainable.

Now Yeo, St Louis has more talent than the Flyers, in fact, more than all but a few NHL teams:
Forwards: ROR, Tarasenko, Schwartz, Schenn, Perron, Bozak, Steen, Maroon, Thomas, Barbasheev, Fabbri, Sanford, Kyrou
Defense: Pietrangelo, Parayko, Edmundson, Dunn, Bouwmeester
Allen and Johnson have a .896 S% between them, which is pulling this team down, still, they should be better than 8-11-3.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Really?

All I've stated is he had a mediocre roster and got mediocre results.

I haven't defended him, just mocked the obsession with every little coaching decision as if you can't get on the internet and find similar complaints about every NHL coach (Why does xxx play yyy more than zzz? He's an idiot!).

As I've said repeatedly, results are all that matters with a HC, not nitpicking every little decision.
Up to now, Hakstol got about what you'd expect from this roster.

Now it's much harder to upgrade a mediocre coach than a terrible coach.
Berube had more to work with than Hakstol his first three seasons and got similar results.
I didn't think Berube was terrible either, just limited, his approach got a mediocre team to the playoffs, but wasn't sustainable.

Now Yeo, St Louis has more talent than the Flyers, in fact, more than all but a few NHL teams:
Forwards: ROR, Tarasenko, Schwartz, Schenn, Perron, Bozak, Steen, Maroon, Thomas, Barbasheev, Fabbri, Sanford, Kyrou
Defense: Pietrangelo, Parayko, Edmundson, Dunn, Bouwmeester
Allen and Johnson have a .896 S% between them, which is pulling this team down, still, they should be better than 8-11-3.

Uh, all you've stated is that he is equal to, and even superior to, Trotz and Sullivan; you went all in on those lines of reasoning whenever people presented them as examples of superior coaches who took a roster and got better results than a predecessor. You're really walking back your gung-ho defenses of Hakstol now.

 

[deadhead]

Uh, all you've stated is that he is equal to, and even superior to, Trotz and Sullivan; you went all in on those lines of reasoning whenever people presented them as examples of superior coaches who took a roster and got better results than a predecessor. You're really walking back your gung-ho defenses of Hakstol now.

I've said no such thing, you lying sack.
I've merely showed that their success was partially due to other factors than their "genius," like roster changes and hot goalies.

My points have always been twofold:
1) Hakstol is your basic run of the mill coach
2) HCs have limited impacts on team success, no HC wins with bad goalies or a lack of talent

Conclusion: replacing Hakstol will not have the dramatic impact that some imply, so why are you all getting your panties in a bunch?

 

[Beef Invictus]

I've said no such thing, you lying sack.
I've merely showed that their success was partially due to other factors than their "genius," like roster changes and hot goalies.

My points have always been twofold:
1) Hakstol is your basic run of the mill coach
2) HCs have limited impacts on team success, no HC wins with bad goalies or a lack of talent

Conclusion: replacing Hakstol will not have the dramatic impact that some imply, so why are you all getting your panties in a bunch?

You've said no such thing!? Whenever they've been presented as being superior to Hakstol you've immediately written essays about how they actually aren't. Those coaches are not run of the mill coaches. You insist Hakstol is at minimum equal to them whenever they're brought up. When asked if you'd take them over Hakstol, you refused to say you would. Clearly this whole "run of the mill" thing is a brand new shift on your part now that the writing is on the wall.

 

[Sombastate]

Deadhead is either Hakstol. Or Lehtera.

Hear me out.

He is now backtracking so that when Hakstol gets canned, he wasnt a Hak-Guy but rather a coach guy.

He's the boss's son, and when a new coach comes in, hes hoping to maintain his ice time

 

[deadhead]

I haven't backtracked, I've been consistently misrepresented by people who are obsessed with Hakstol.
I'm not the one suddenly refusing to stand by the claim that Hakstol is so terrible that any other coach would be an improvement, that's backtracking.

I've been consistent stating that replacing Hakstol simply isn't going to have much of an impact until we find a real goalie - and that gets twisted into some crazy defense - and my points about other coaches is that even those so-called "geniuses" have struggled with bad goalies.

Either a new coach would be a substantial improvement or there is no reason to make a big deal about firing Hakstol, yet numerous posters are getting frantic about whether Hakstol coaches another week, much less until the end of the year. But many of these same posters also refuse to go on record that a new coach will turn this team around.

Q isn't coming here in January to coach a team with no goalies and no shot at the playoffs.
He can just collect $6M, see who gets hired as the new GM and observe whether he's the fool on the hill before joining up in June.

And if Q isn't available, who do you expect replaces Hakstol?

I didn't know people were desperate to have Gordon coach the rest of the season?

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Hakstol is so terrible that any other coach would be an improvement

Thanks so much for admitting that finally, pal. I feel us all coming together now.


I am glad you are here with me. Here at the end of all things, head.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

I haven't backtracked, I've been consistently misrepresented by people who are obsessed with Hakstol.
I'm not the one suddenly refusing to stand by the claim that Hakstol is so terrible that any other coach would be an improvement, that's backtracking.

I've been consistent stating that replacing Hakstol simply isn't going to have much of an impact until we find a real goalie - and that gets twisted into some crazy defense - and my points about other coaches is that even those so-called "geniuses" have struggled with bad goalies.

Either a new coach would be a substantial improvement or there is no reason to make a big deal about firing Hakstol, yet numerous posters are getting frantic about whether Hakstol coaches another week, much less until the end of the year. But many of these same posters also refuse to go on record that a new coach will turn this team around.

Q isn't coming here in January to coach a team with no goalies and no shot at the playoffs.
He can just collect $6M, see who gets hired as the new GM and observe whether he's the fool on the hill before joining up in June.

And if Q isn't available, who do you expect replaces Hakstol?

I didn't know people were desperate to have Gordon coach the rest of the season?

I can see myself getting flamed, but as a fan of another team, I can at least see your side of this. It’s pretty much impossible to know how much of this is coaching and how much is directly on players. Any criticism, or supportive remark, of Hakstol is going to be nothing more than confirmation bias at this point most likely.

On the other side, however, coaching changes can be pretty dramatic. A prime example is looking at the way the Boston Bruins (the team I root for) shifted directions INSTANTLY after replacing Claude Julien with Bruce Cassidy. The difference in energy and pace was evident from the very first game Bruce took over. Over time, BC has implemented his system, but at the beginning I think it was just a combination of players feeling guilty/being kicked in the ass for “getting a coach fired” and the fact that they had a coach stressing playing with energy and pace over system.

Hak certainly isn’t perfect, but as you are saying, I do agree that he is in a pretty large way a victim of circumstance. I can’t speak to what you’ve said comparing him to other coaches (as others in this thread are claiming), but I do think that you are more in the right than many people are giving credit for simply because they have developed an exaggerated hate for an individual figure in the head coach.

Edit: I’m also interested to see where Hak goes after his near certain firing from Philly. Will he return to the college ranks and fly high once again (a la Rick Pitino) or will he try to grab another job (maybe as an assistant) in the NHL? I can’t imagine he gets another head coaching job in the near future, but I’m curious to see if there is a part 2 to his story and if he gets a chance to redeem himself at the professional level somewhere else.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I can see myself getting flamed, but as a fan of another team, I can at least see your side of this. It’s pretty much impossible to know how much of this is coaching and how much is directly on players. Any criticism, or supportive remark, of Hakstol is going to be nothing more than confirmation bias at this point most likely.

On the other side, however, coaching changes can be pretty dramatic. A prime example is looking at the way the Boston Bruins (the team I root for) shifted directions INSTANTLY after replacing Claude Julien with Bruce Cassidy. The difference in energy and pace was evident from the very first game Bruce took over. Over time, BC has implemented his system, but at the beginning I think it was just a combination of players feeling guilty/being kicked in the ass for “getting a coach fired” and the fact that they had a coach stressing playing with energy and pace over system.

Hak certainly isn’t perfect, but as you are saying, I do agree that he is in a pretty large way a victim of circumstance. I can’t speak to what you’ve said comparing him to other coaches (as others in this thread are claiming), but I do think that you are more in the right than many people are giving credit for simply because they have developed an exaggerated hate for an individual figure in the head coach.

Edit: I’m also interested to see where Hak goes after his near certain firing from Philly. Will he return to the college ranks and fly high once again (a la Rick Pitino) or will he try to grab another job (maybe as an assistant) in the NHL? I can’t imagine he gets another head coaching job in the near future, but I’m curious to see if there is a part 2 to his story and if he gets a chance to redeem himself at the professional level somewhere else.

There's a ton of stuff that is really clearly Hakstol's fault. A mountain of stuff. Player misuse, terrible ice time management, terrible game management, numerous examples of terrible prospect development, etc. We could go on forever.

In the game this thread is about, he seemingly forgot to pull the goalie. There was two minutes left while we were down a goal, we had the top line and Ghost on the ice, and we had offensive zone pressure. It took an entire minute before Stolarz was called to the bench. This is a coach that thinks Dale Weise belongs on the second line over JVR. This is a coach who broke up the top line for no reason heading into the playoffs so the line could get "heavier" against a Pittsburgh team that slaughtered that kind of idiocy.

The dude sucks. There's a reason UND could never win until right after he left. Most of the circumstances he is victim to are circumstances he creates himself...like his penchant for running goalies into the ground.

 

[JXC]

Again, just watch some other teams play.

Thank you. You’ve been heppful.

 

[JXC]

they think they have to score on every possession and overpass and don't shoot - they had plenty of opportunities to shoot from the slot last night, just didn't pull the trigger.

Accurate.

 

[JXC]

If you look at scoring chances, and HDSCs, Flyers have been outplaying almost every team they've played this month.
Even the 1st line has turned it around.

They struggle to finish their opportunities, and give up too many goals on opponent opportunities:
HDCF/CA HDGF/GA

Ghost 61/65 - 5/11
Provorov 82/83 - 9/13
Voracek 67/78 - 5/15
Simmonds 49/49 - 7/10
Giroux 59/75 - 11/12
Couts 58/71 - 9/10

On the flip side:
TK 60/43 - 11/4
Lindblom 63/31 - 8/4
Patrick 60/41 - 7/7
Weal 53/23 - 6/3
Weise 59/32 - 5/5
Laughton 43/36 - 6/6

Hagg 72/72 - 15/9
Gudas 68/38 - 7/4
Folin 48/40 - 10/8
Sanheim 84/46 - 10/8

Yes!

They lack closers who can compensate for flaws on the blue line and sub par goaltending.

 

[JXC]

Giroux and Couts have much better numbers since Nov when Couts was 100% again.
But they have struggled against top lines defensively, I think their lack of speed gets exposed at times.
Ideally you build a 1st line around Patrick, a speed line around Frost, and get great matchups for Giroux and Couts going forward.

The top lines of Toronto and Buffalo totally abused them.

But they need to, primarily, pot chances at a high rate. When they do, we win.

 

[JXC]

everything on how the team plays falls on the coach.

This is so XBox

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

The top lines of Toronto and Buffalo totally abused them.

But they need to, primarily, pot chances at a high rate. When they do, we win.

Wow, that’s a good strategy.

I’ve heard creating high dangers chances becomes so much easier when you spam point shots all game.

 

[deadhead]

Points shots are fine if you get bodies in front of the net and your point shooters can get the puck on net.
Gudas when he's on has a dangerous shot from the point.

If you watch the low/high, the low player first looks to the slot to see if a play is available, the pass to the D-man at the point is the safe option - where they get into trouble is when they start skating around the perimeter (Voracek, Weal are the worst offenders) instead of quickly passing the puck around to catch defenders out of position.

It's actually similar to basketball where you pass the ball around while your big man establishes himself in the low post, the trick is to both establish position in the low post then get the ball to a player with the right angle to make the pass inside.

This is why you want a mix of players in your front nine, big guys with good hands who can hold their position in the slot and in front of the net, and quick skilled guys who can draw the defense to them and open up passing lanes to the slot.

 

[Rebels57]

I can see myself getting flamed, but as a fan of another team, I can at least see your side of this. It’s pretty much impossible to know how much of this is coaching and how much is directly on players. Any criticism, or supportive remark, of Hakstol is going to be nothing more than confirmation bias at this point most likely.

On the other side, however, coaching changes can be pretty dramatic. A prime example is looking at the way the Boston Bruins (the team I root for) shifted directions INSTANTLY after replacing Claude Julien with Bruce Cassidy. The difference in energy and pace was evident from the very first game Bruce took over. Over time, BC has implemented his system, but at the beginning I think it was just a combination of players feeling guilty/being kicked in the ass for “getting a coach fired” and the fact that they had a coach stressing playing with energy and pace over system.

Hak certainly isn’t perfect, but as you are saying, I do agree that he is in a pretty large way a victim of circumstance. I can’t speak to what you’ve said comparing him to other coaches (as others in this thread are claiming), but I do think that you are more in the right than many people are giving credit for simply because they have developed an exaggerated hate for an individual figure in the head coach.

Edit: I’m also interested to see where Hak goes after his near certain firing from Philly. Will he return to the college ranks and fly high once again (a la Rick Pitino) or will he try to grab another job (maybe as an assistant) in the NHL? I can’t imagine he gets another head coaching job in the near future, but I’m curious to see if there is a part 2 to his story and if he gets a chance to redeem himself at the professional level somewhere else.

Fire Hakstol.

 

[tucson83]

Hak's reaction:

 

[Rebels57]

Those lines are f***ing histerically bad. Its only going to get worse with Hak here and Hextall not around.

 

[tucson83]

Hak's reaction:

how are my lines next year assuming we get nylander or panarin and not get hughes
panarin/nylander, couturier, konecny
giroux/patrick/voracek
jvr/laughton/obrien
fabree/rubtsov/frost

provy/broberg assuming the flyers pick is in the top 5 because this team needs a defenseman in the worst way
ghost/sanaheim
fa/fa

goalie for trade or fa
hart or stolly

 

[tucson83]

Those lines are ****ing histerically bad. Its only going to get worse with Hak here and Hextall not around.

heck yeah, i just made next year's rough line up with the new coach hopefully.

 

[Ruck Over]

Pens points in 5 straight

So Sullivan is good again?

 

[JXC]

I can see myself getting flamed, but as a fan of another team, I can at least see your side of this. It’s pretty much impossible to know how much of this is coaching and how much is directly on players. Any criticism, or supportive remark, of Hakstol is going to be nothing more than confirmation bias at this point most likely.

On the other side, however, coaching changes can be pretty dramatic. A prime example is looking at the way the Boston Bruins (the team I root for) shifted directions INSTANTLY after replacing Claude Julien with Bruce Cassidy. The difference in energy and pace was evident from the very first game Bruce took over. Over time, BC has implemented his system, but at the beginning I think it was just a combination of players feeling guilty/being kicked in the ass for “getting a coach fired” and the fact that they had a coach stressing playing with energy and pace over system.

Hak certainly isn’t perfect, but as you are saying, I do agree that he is in a pretty large way a victim of circumstance. I can’t speak to what you’ve said comparing him to other coaches (as others in this thread are claiming), but I do think that you are more in the right than many people are giving credit for simply because they have developed an exaggerated hate for an individual figure in the head coach.

Edit: I’m also interested to see where Hak goes after his near certain firing from Philly. Will he return to the college ranks and fly high once again (a la Rick Pitino) or will he try to grab another job (maybe as an assistant) in the NHL? I can’t imagine he gets another head coaching job in the near future, but I’m curious to see if there is a part 2 to his story and if he gets a chance to redeem himself at the professional level somewhere else.

Great post.

Sometimes it takes an honest person from the outside to see things the way they are.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Those lines are ****ing histerically bad. Its only going to get worse with Hak here and Hextall not around.

He's actually going ****ing backwards

 

[Striiker]

Those lines are ****ing histerically bad. Its only going to get worse with Hak here and Hextall not around.

Keep in mind there's a 99% chance Weal is replaced by JVR there, who had a maintenance day.

So really it's likely:

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny
JVR- Patrick - Simmonds
Raffl - Laughton - Voracek
Lindblom - Lehtera - Weise

Biggest problem is Voracek on the 3rd line.