Post-Game Talk: #23: FLYERS 0 at Maple Leafs 6, Saturday, Nov. 24, 2018, 7:00 p.m. ET

David St Hubbins

Well, you're not as confused as he is.
Jan 24, 2016
2,010
3,357
Deskfront, facing WSW
Also, trading roster players for goaltending while keeping this cluster f*** in charge dramatically increases the likelihood that said roster players end up performing far better elsewhere. I.e., we seriously overpay. Maybe another JVR for Luke Schenn type trade.

So step one is, was, and will remain to be “ new coach.” Then we can look at trying to improve the talent or a shake up (your under achiever for mine) trade.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
Last year you and few other were saying the problem is depth. Now that depth should not be problem the goal posts are moved and blame is on core players. Never nothing wrong with Hak.

Huh? You're misstating my long-standing position regarding the Flyers' depth.

I never said they lacked depth of fungible mediocre players. I've argued they've lacked scoring line depth and dynamism at forward, particularly at 2nd line center. I've made that argument for several years. And many times this season in arguing they should trade for Nylander.

They aren't going to be able to address that major hole without trading someone with high value.

I've also said for years I don't care if they fire Hak, and, far from "never nothing wrong with Hak" (although a double negative which actually means something is wrong with Hak) have been actively supporting replacing Hak for most of the last month. So the moving of the goalposts, at least with regard to my positions, is on you.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
And those dime a dozen guys have been replaced with better payers (for the most part). You can continue to sugar coat things all you want, but when you look at the talent that's here (Provorov, Sanheim, Gudas, Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom, van Riemsdyk, Laughton), they should be significantly better than what they are. The replacements aren't 'dime a dozen' players. These are good hockey players and in the case of a few of them, high end/franchise players (Provorov, Sanheim, Konecny, Patrick, Lindblom).
Provorov: Has been horrible this season and nowhere near a #1 defenseman.
Sanheim: So far, one of the most overrated players to wear a Flyers uniform. No better than Del Zotto so far.
Patrick: So far, also one of the most overrated players to wear a Flyers uniform. No better than Filppula yet.
Lindblom: So far, also one of the most overrated players to wear a Flyers uniform. Nothing more than a 3rd line winger at this point.
Laughton: A 4th liner on most teams.
JVR: Been hurt most of the season; still working his way back into form.

There's simply a lot of overrating going on regarding this team's young players. They aren't very good -- yet. Perhaps they were overhyped by the fanbase; it happens with prospects all the time. Perhaps they just need more time. But at the moment, they are not above average NHLers for the roles the Flyers need them to play.
 

General Joseph

Registered User
Dec 25, 2017
217
266
Florida Panhandle
We could have the greatest coach in the world , but bad defense and having 2 starting goalies always fighting injuries MAGNIFIES everything .. Trading BOB and getting rid of LAVY were monumental failures . Flyers need TOUGHNESS on the ice by EVERYONE . Hopefully the next coach demands more toughness and grit from the players and demands the GM bring in players who show passion and grit win or lose . Our most exciting player hands down is TK , he brings it every game .
 

David St Hubbins

Well, you're not as confused as he is.
Jan 24, 2016
2,010
3,357
Deskfront, facing WSW
Provorov: Has been horrible this season and nowhere near a #1 defenseman.
Sanheim: So far, one of the most overrated players to wear a Flyers uniform. No better than Del Zotto so far.
Patrick: So far, also one of the most overrated players to wear a Flyers uniform. No better than Filppula yet.
Lindblom: So far, also one of the most overrated players to wear a Flyers uniform. Nothing more than a 3rd line winger at this point.
Laughton: A 4th liner on most teams.
JVR: Been hurt most of the season; still working his way back into form.

There's simply a lot of overrating going on regarding this team's young players. They aren't very good -- yet. Perhaps they were overhyped by the fanbase; it happens with prospects all the time. Perhaps they just need more time. But at the moment, they are not above average NHLers for the roles the Flyers need them to play.

It could be that 4 very highly rated players - Patrick (assumed #1 OA), Lindblom (SHL standout) Provorov & Sanheim (highly touted prospects in d+1 years) - were massively overrated by all the powers that be, in Philly and elsewhere. Or maybe the shitty coaching has them playing confused and a terrible system has stunted their ability to produce.

For me, i’d say try to remedy the second before I dump the previous.
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,750
86,029
Nova Scotia
It could be that 4 very highly rated players - Patrick (assumed #1 OA), Lindblom (SHL standout) Provorov & Sanheim (highly touted prospects in d+1 years) - were massively overrated by all the powers that be, in Philly and elsewhere. Or maybe the ****ty coaching has them playing confused and a terrible system has stunted their ability to produce.

For me, i’d say try to remedy the second before I dump the previous.
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
22,590
16,402
It could be that 4 very highly rated players - Patrick (assumed #1 OA), Lindblom (SHL standout) Provorov & Sanheim (highly touted prospects in d+1 years) - were massively overrated by all the powers that be, in Philly and elsewhere. Or maybe the ****ty coaching has them playing confused and a terrible system has stunted their ability to produce.

For me, i’d say try to remedy the second before I dump the previous.

I wouldn't give up on Patrick, Lindblom, or Provorov yet. Not at all. That's a separate issue from recognizing that they aren't yet close to living up to their hype this season. Flashes of talent are a lot different than being a consistent above average core NHL player.

Sanheim -- well, considering the Flyers are going to have to give up value to address their roster holes, he's one guy I'd consider trading. He's disappointed me for years with his inconsistency and lack of assertiveness. I had high hopes for him based on his highlights in junior, but too often when I've seen him in person, going back to even the last 3 preseasons, and of course watching pretty much every regular season game he's played for the Flyers, I come away unimpressed due to that inconsistency and lack of assertiveness. That doesn't mean I want to dump him for nothing -- not at all. It often takes defensemen a lot of time to develop. But I wouldn't make him untouchable either.

I think it's convenient to blame all of their struggles on coaching having "them playing confused" with "a terrible system [that] has stunted their ability to produce." It certainly could be part of their struggles, but I think it's equally the case that they just aren't good NHL players yet.
 

Captain Dave Poulin

Imaginary Cat
Apr 30, 2015
68,013
199,718
Tokyo, JP
I got no problem giving Knob the rest of this season to see what he can do. If nothing else, it gives us some certainty about him, and I share the feeling that Q is unlikely to jump into any situation mid-season. If he takes another job it will be after the season ends, before the draft and free agency, so he can help shape the roster he will take on. Having an interim to see how the players react to a change, to see perhaps if there are some attitude problems that need to be addressed, would only aid that.

I'd be fine with Knob for the rest of the season - enthusiastic, even - but on Sportsnet (a week ago) they said that Q doesn't necessarily need to wait until the offseason. He just wants the right fit, i.e. not a complete teardown, and the right $ + years. According to what they said, we fit his needs perfectly fine, except in net.
 

bennysflyers16

Registered User
Jan 26, 2004
84,295
62,228
I'd be fine with Knob for the rest of the season - enthusiastic, even - but on Sportsnet (a week ago) they said that Q doesn't necessarily need to wait until the offseason. He just wants the right fit, i.e. not a complete teardown, and the right $ + years. According to what they said, we fit his needs perfectly fine, except in net.


3.5 years. 30 mill should do it.
Trade for Howard tomm and see if he works out for bridge to Hart, and work to next year and maybe sneak in this year
 

Captain Dave Poulin

Imaginary Cat
Apr 30, 2015
68,013
199,718
Tokyo, JP
Why was Mullen fired btw? Ever since Knob started coaching PP it has been getting worse.

Jeff inherited Lappy, so I could just about see him letting Lappy run the PK - I see almost no way that he is letting Knob run the PP. I just can't see it. If that sounds like double standards (blaming Lappy, absolving Knob), I totally understand, but that's not what I mean. What I have actually come to believe is that neither of them deserves blame for the special teams. Does that suit my preconceived Fire Hakstok sentiments? You're damn skippy it does. While I do think there is something realistic to the idea of blaming Jeff altogether, I ultimately don't give a **** about confirmation bias and will blame him regardless.

tl;dr Fire Hakstok.
 

tucson83

Registered User
Sep 30, 2017
2,638
1,234
if they are not doing anything it's telling me that are trying to go after jack hughes because if they have any interest in winning they would be doing something right now
sadly, i believe hextall was hired to get rid of contracts and hakstol is just a placeholder until their contracts run out and then they will probably get new gm and a new coach and start the winning process. it's basically a wait process whether we win or lose.
 

Harhis

Registered User
Oct 30, 2017
1,209
2,273
Finland
Jeff inherited Lappy, so I could just about see him letting Lappy run the PK - I see almost no way that he is letting Knob run the PP. I just can't see it. If that sounds like double standards (blaming Lappy, absolving Knob), I totally understand, but that's not what I mean. What I have actually come to believe is that neither of them deserves blame for the special teams. Does that suit my preconceived Fire Hakstok sentiments? You're damn skippy it does. While I do think there is something realistic to the idea of blaming Jeff altogether, I ultimately don't give a **** about confirmation bias and will blame him regardless.

tl;dr Fire Hakstok.
Exactly, (tinfoil hat on) is it possible Mullen was fired because he didn't want to do things like Hak wanted?
 

Lindberg

Bennyflyers16 get a life
Oct 5, 2013
7,151
7,850
I wonder if Mullen and Hakstol butted heads. Always seemed odd that he’s been the only assistant to get the axe.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
155,161
Pennsylvania
I wonder how many times it needs to be said before certain people stop spewing lies.

NO ONE THINKS FIRING HAK WILL FIX EVERYTHING.

They DO think firing Hak, fixes the Hak issue.

Understand?
And to add to this:

Firing Hak will solve the Hak problem but also help some of the issues with the roster, even if it doesn’t solve them.

For example, Hagg will still be trash, but if the next coach uses him appropriately he’ll be less of a negative. We’ll also still lack a 3C, but if the 3C isn’t used as the 1C or 2C, that will help too.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,493
164,349
Armored Train
And to add to this:

Firing Hak will solve the Hak problem but also help some of the issues with the roster, even if it doesn’t solve them.

For example, Hagg will still be trash, but if the next coach uses him appropriately he’ll be less of a negative. We’ll also still lack a 3C, but if the 3C isn’t used as the 1C or 2C, that will help too.

In fact, firing Hak is the first step towards figuring out what the true roster issues are, aside from the obvious in net. Player misuse is so common that it makes everything worse than it should be, and makes judgement based on the way Hakstol is using them as he pursues a futile system difficult.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,442
155,161
Pennsylvania
In fact, firing Hak is the first step towards figuring out what the true roster issues are, aside from the obvious in net. Player misuse is so common that it makes everything worse than it should be, and makes judgement based on the way Hakstol is using them as he pursues a futile system difficult.
Yup.

Usage makes such a massive difference in player performance. Being down on any of the young guys makes no sense when you look at their stupid usage. It’s completely understandable that they aren’t currently having the impact we think they can.

TK is the perfect example of this. Horrible usage to start last year, people were down on him, and as soon as he got used properly he went nuts.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see a similar thing happen once these young guys like Patrick or Sanheim are used the right amount, with the right players, in the right system.
 

Petr Svoboda Mullet

Registered User
Apr 3, 2016
1,268
1,331
It could be that 4 very highly rated players - Patrick (assumed #1 OA), Lindblom (SHL standout) Provorov & Sanheim (highly touted prospects in d+1 years) - were massively overrated by all the powers that be, in Philly and elsewhere. Or maybe the ****ty coaching has them playing confused and a terrible system has stunted their ability to produce.

For me, i’d say try to remedy the second before I dump the previous.

Bingo. X1000.
 
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Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,493
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Armored Train
Yup.

Usage makes such a massive difference in player performance. Being down on any of the young guys makes no sense when you look at their stupid usage. It’s completely understandable that they aren’t currently having the impact we think they can.

TK is the perfect example of this. Horrible usage to start last year, people were down on him, and as soon as he got used properly he went nuts.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see a similar thing happen once these young guys like Patrick or Sanheim are used the right amount, with the right players, in the right system.


He's just a trash development coach. Like in TK's rookie year, when we were eliminated from the playoffs, the last Hakstol holdouts presumed that he would up TK's usage to get him experience; I was one of them. It didn't happen. Despite the fact that it was the only logical thing to do, he didn't do it.
 

onlylordsvsmorebp

HEAVYHOCKEY ENTHUSIAST
Dec 27, 2011
6,240
6,715
VAN ISLE CANADA
Wasn't me but I could see the guy's frustration!
The Flyer nation had a nice following with the showing of jerseys worn last evening...
ALWAYS DO IN CANADIAN VENUES...WHEN I GO TO SEE THEM IN VANCOUVER I CANT BELIEVE THE AMOUNT OF FLYERS FANS AND WERE ALWAYS LOUD AND PROUD TOO.


AND WE ****ING DESERVE BETTER.
 

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