Prospect Info: 21st Overall Samuel Poulin, RW

[Dipsy Doodle]

June 20th:

“In today’s game, you can be a little bit undersized and not necessarily play undersized. That has changed. The speed of the game and the willingness to go into the hard areas along with skill is more intriguing these days.”

“Ten years ago, those guys might not have been in consideration for the first round, but the game has changed and you need the speed and you need the skill,” Allvin said. “Size doesn’t really matter as long as you can play and you’re a good player.”

June 22nd:

“If you look at their body types, both are over 200 pounds,” Allvin said. “You gotta work on the quickness a little bit, but there’s no concerns. A couple years here, and I think they’re going to fit perfectly to the style of the Penguins. That’s good.”

“If you look at the Stanley Cup Final, the way St. Louis played, Boston played, they’re big, they’re strong and they skate,” Gauthier said. “Both of those guys have those qualities. For sure, both need to improve a little bit of their speed and their explosiveness. Right there, we’ll see in the next couple years where they are.”

YMMV, but it reads to me like JR trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube with his trade scenarios.

Again, not a value judgment on any of these players.

 

[Jacob]

when he's 18...yeah.

Yeah he’s already got 12 lbs. on the average.. and that average includes d-men. Poulin’s older brother is 6’2” so maybe he grows more, but even if he doesn’t he’s still pretty big especially for a skilled forward.

 

[Peat]

I really like that this guy is considered one of the best passers in the draft. Adds another dimension to his game. Plus everything I read mentions that everytime scouts saw him, he kept getting better and better. Not a bad idea to bet on a guy with a work ethic like that. He's got the natural skill and the intangibles to make himself an NHLer.

At the risk of sounding like a neanderthal, I think when talking about which 18 year old to pick for playing for you 4 years from now its almost impossible to put too much stock on who's going to work hardest and absorb lessons most.

A lot of defensiveness in this thread over legit concerns about the revisionist history the team's engaging in when it comes to moves on the main roster and what it prioritizes in its draftees. For a team that won its Cups with a well-defined identity, those two articles come off as schizophrenic.

I deffo get where you're coming from.

I think that in the two quotes you give later, Allvin saying "he's 200 lbs" isn't why they picked him, it's pointing out that's a lot of meat for 18 year old legs to get shifting quickly but it isn't going to stay that way as the kids get older and stronger and that the quickness he's talking about will come if they do the work.

But I can't be a 100% sure that's what it means. Just like I think I believe Allvin that picking three big chunky boys with the first three picks was fairly coincidental, but again I can't be a 100% sure.

 

[wej20]

when he's 18...yeah.

True he's only 18, but he's unlikely to get taller and I'd say 207 lbs is a perfectly reasonable playing weight (though I imagine he'll probably add some muscle as he gets older though not get significantly heavier).

 

[madinsomniac]

I see no disconnect.



Allvin said they weren’t targeting size, the draft just happened to work out that way.

Poulin was picked roughly where he was expected to go and Caulfield and Legare went way lower than expected so they weren’t reaching for size.

One of our scouts even made the point that we draft based on adding value to the organization (IE trade value) and not necessarily on where a player would fit into the team now or even in the future.

Yeah I concur. Size isn’t a must in this day and age, but it isn’t a negative either. You just cannot target Size and “grit” guys with suppar skill and speed anymore... Size is no longer something you can get by all on its own these days. If a guy who is huge and skilled and not horrendously slow falls to you, that’s awesome.

If anything that player is probably undervalued for the first time ever in this version of the league lol

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Not to keep banging the drum on this because - again - it's not based on first-hand viewings, but articles like these are why he has been looked at by some as a "safe" pick:

Scouting report: No-nonsense power forward with a good shot and a conscientious, consistent, competitive game. Skating isn’t a strength. Offensive upside is limited, so he might top out as a third-liner.

A look at the 5 players the Penguins drafted this weekend in Vancouver | TribLIVE.com

• Ceiling fan: Scouts from hockeyprospect.com love Poulin’s consistency and competitiveness. The only knock on him is his offensive ceiling. In that respect, the pick was a conservative one by the Penguins. He might only top out as a third-line winger, but his chances of being a bust are low.

5 things to know about Penguins’ first-round draft pick Samuel Poulin | TribLIVE.com

HF Negative Nellies aren't just conjuring this up out of nowhere.

 

[Turin]

I’d want to know how they define a third line winger.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Jesus, if we’re going by the brain trust in Pittsburgh media about what a smart pick is or what constitutes a reasonable projection, just kill me now and get it over with.

 

[Jacob]

I’d want to know how they define a third line winger.

I'd want to know what they base the "limited offensive upside" on.

To me that describes Legare better than Poulin. One led their team in scoring by 17 points and factored into half the team's goals in the playoffs, the other wasn't even the main offensive driver on his line. One has gotten high marks for on-ice vision and passing ability, the other is more of a "bury your head and shoot" kind of player. I see a notable difference in puckhandling too, even though Legare isn't bad with it, he just chops it up a bit. Poulin is just smooth.

Unless they just think it's his skating alone that will limit his offensive role, which is certainly a fair point.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'd want to know what they base the "limited offensive upside" on.

To me that describes Legare better than Poulin. One led their team in scoring by 17 points and factored into half the team's goals in the playoffs, the other wasn't even the main offensive driver on his line. One has gotten high marks for on-ice vision and passing ability, the other is more of a "bury your head and shoot" kind of player. I see a notable difference in puckhandling too, even though Legare isn't bad with it, he just chops it up a bit. Poulin is just smooth.

Unless they just think it's his skating alone that will limit his offensive role, which is certainly a fair point.

Sportsnet listed Brandon Saad as Poulin's comparable. But I don't know if they actually put much thought into the comparison, or just looked for a relatively similar "6'1, 200 lbs" forward who is known for his two-way play, but not necessarily elite offense.

 

[Peat]

Sportsnet listed Brandon Saad as Poulin's comparable. But I don't know if they actually put much thought into the comparison, or just looked for a relatively similar "6'1, 200 lbs" forward who is known for his two-way play, but not necessarily elite offense.

Third time I've seem that comparable - Saad, Niederreiter, or Hossa are the most common style comparisons. Not sure how accurate any of them are but I definitely get the message they'd trying to send.

p.s. I know what you mean by not being known for elite offence but at the same time, anytime a guy breaks 40 points with minimal power play involvement as often as Saad, I am impressed.

HF Negative Nellies aren't just conjuring this up out of nowhere.

If you're choosing to focus on the profile by the Pittsburgh journalist that has given no sign of looking at video/his fancy stats/anything other than a quick couple things to get the first article out over all the reports that have actually clearly spent time looking at him, you're kinda choosing to be negative here

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

...

I think that in the two quotes you give later, Allvin saying "he's 200 lbs" isn't why they picked him, it's pointing out that's a lot of meat for 18 year old legs to get shifting quickly but it isn't going to stay that way as the kids get older and stronger and that the quickness he's talking about will come if they do the work.

But I can't be a 100% sure that's what it means. Just like I think I believe Allvin that picking three big chunky boys with the first three picks was fairly coincidental, but again I can't be a 100% sure.

That's definitely what he was saying.

 

[ImporterExporter]

They're hockey prospects.

Unless it's Sid or McDavid you never f***ing know.

 

[Riptide]

Not to keep banging the drum on this because - again - it's not based on first-hand viewings, but articles like these are why he has been looked at by some as a "safe" pick:

HF Negative Nellies aren't just conjuring this up out of nowhere.

No, they're just being selective about what they want to see. If you look around there's enough info out there that gives him a range that's higher than a "3rd liner". Whether he hits that or not is another matter. Given the odds, I'd say no. But you never know.

 

[Peat]

No, they're just being selective about what they want to see. If you look around there's enough info out there that gives him a range that's higher than a "3rd liner". Whether he hits that or not is another matter. Given the odds, I'd say no. But you never know.

I'm not even being selective here. I'm being an omnivore. The amount of stuff predicting a good ceiling vs a meh one, particularly if I start weighting by "actually has a clue", is pretty one sided. If that changes, I'll change my opinion.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don’t really think skating is that much of a weakness for Poulin.

It’s his worst tool relative to his other strengths (because he’s so skilled/competitive/smart) but he’s not slow at all IMO.

Just my opinion but I’d bet he’ll be an average/above average-ish NHL skater.

 

[Shady Machine]

They're hockey prospects.

Unless it's Sid or McDavid you never ****ing know.

Is there a larger point I am missing here?

 

[ImporterExporter]

Is there a larger point I am missing here?

All the other people who hit like understand the rather obvious point.

People clamouring on about how good or bad Poulin is/will be are people throwing darts blind.

Bickering about his speed or overall outlook is pointless considering most of us have never seen this kids play, outside a few highlight packages.

 

[TheDuderino]

I always laugh when I hear the term “power forward” being applied to players in the “Q”.

16 defensemen were chosen in front of the first defenseman taken from the Q...that player, btw, is from Europe.

The two Quebecois defensemen taken in the draft were -32 and -33.

Every forward in the Q looks like a power forward. They don’t play D in that league.

They should have chosen Tomasino...

 

[The Old Master]

All the other people who hit like understand the rather obvious point.

People clamouring on about how good or bad Poulin is/will be are people throwing darts blind.

Bickering about his speed or overall outlook is pointless considering most of us have never seen this kids play, outside a few highlight packages.

high ranked players get looked at through a magnifying glass to see the players warts, and after a while they sometimes forget that they are using a magnifying glass. it happens.

 

[Jacob]

The leagues aren't as different as they used to be and are still stereotyped as. The WHL isn't churning out bruising d-men, the Q isn't all small skilled forwards, and isn't a weaker defensive or higher scoring league statistically either. Dobson and Beaudin were first round picks last draft. Chabot came out of the Q too. 4 of the past 9 Memorial Cup winners are Q teams.

It's not 1987 anymore.

 

[TheDuderino]

The leagues aren't as different as they used to be and are still stereotyped as. The WHL isn't churning out bruising d-men, the Q isn't all small skilled forwards, and isn't a weaker defensive or higher scoring league statistically either. Dobson and Beaudin were first round picks last draft. Chabot came out of the Q too. 4 of the past 9 Memorial Cup winners are Q teams.

It's not 1987 anymore.

You’re citing exceptions not the rules...and you’re statement about WHL defensemen is flat out wrong...just look at this year’s draft...the Q is fodder for the small handful of relatively skilled forwards who are rostered...it’s why a kid like Sprong - who will never have a 200’ game - stands out...

 

[Jacob]

You’re citing exceptions not the rules...and you’re statement about WHL defensemen is flat out wrong...just look at this year’s draft...the Q is fodder for the small handful of relatively skilled forwards who are rostered...it’s why a kid like Sprong - who will never have a 200’ game - stands out...

So you're saying players that come out of the WHL and OHL inherently have 200' games and QMJHL players do not? Because, counterpoint: Bergeron & Couturier vs. Eberle & Barzal

 

[TheDuderino]

So you're saying players that come out of the WHL and OHL inherently have 200' games and QMJHL players do not? Because, counterpoint: Bergeron & Couturier vs. Eberle & Barzal

Four players drafted over a spread of 15 years?!?

Some counter point...

 

[HandshakeLine]

Counterpoint's one word, chief. I mean, if you want to be pedantic, best to get it right.