WJC: 2021 Russia Roster Talk

Flynn84

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Apr 27, 2006
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Larionov said that he's interested in Abramov, Firstov, Kuznetsov, Likhachyov, Ponomaryov from the NA leagues.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Easily better than 17/18 one and at least tied with 15/16. And the latter team went to the finals. And this one will have Askarov. So all in all, people are really jumping the gun with their far-reaching conclusions.

I agree with you. No need for the cyanide pills just yet! Since about 2008, increased investment in hockey has created greater and greater depth at the youth level, and you are starting to see it in the form of Russia winning U15, U16 and U18 tournaments, which used to be the weakest links in the Russian hockey organization. Even though the investment doesn't match Canada, the US, Sweden and Finland, all those countries are at 100% capacity. They are at their maximum capability, whereas Russia is only reaching about 20% of its potential. But each year the depth of forwards and defensemen seem to get better, and at the U20, Russia won more medals than any other country over the past 10 years (I believe they should have won Gold in 2019 and 2020). This is going to be a really weird WJC tournament, but I have no fears about Russia getting blown off the ice!
 
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wings5

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Even though the investment doesn't match Canada, the US, Sweden and Finland, all those countries are at 100% capacity. They are at their maximum capability, whereas Russia is only reaching about 20% of its potential.

Maybe some of the other countries are closer to their full capacity but definitely not the US. They also have alot of potential room to grow the game in their country just like Russia, and Germany.
 

Firsov99

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Feb 17, 2006
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Maybe some of the other countries are closer to their full capacity but definitely not the US. They also have alot of potential room to grow the game in their country just like Russia, and Germany.
I would probably agree that the US and Germany are far from maxing out their potential. But much of this potential would be difficult to reach because it would be unlikely for hockey to surpass the more popular sports like American Football, Basketball, Baseball, Soccer (Germany).
 
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Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Maybe some of the other countries are closer to their full capacity but definitely not the US. They also have alot of potential room to grow the game in their country just like Russia, and Germany.

In considering the hockey potential of the US, I thought about a couple of elements that influence developing new players: (1) is it a popular sport that kids want to learn to play, and (2) how can they go about learning to play the game? In the US, I think these two elements kind of merge.

By a very small margin, hockey is the second most popular sport in Russia, just behind football. Kids dream about growing up to become a player. My impression is that in the US, hockey is the 4th or 5th most popular sport at best. I think that the best young athletes in the US gravitate toward the sports that have much greater prestige in their communities, such as American football, basketball and baseball. There are a large number of American players on NHL rosters, but not many really talented or dominant players. Given the massive numbers of youth players reported, this seems to be a bit of anomaly. Outside of the NHL cities located in warm weather climates, there is no outdoor skating, and too few indoor rinks to support a major expansion in American talent.

The geographic areas where kids can learn to play hockey in the neighborhood are limited to a few locations along the northern border with Canada. In other words, locations like those in Russia and Canada where it is cold enough to build "yard rinks" where kids can play for hours on end for 4 to 6 months in the winter. Given the limited geographic locale of outdoor skating, there are substantially fewer American kids who dream about playing in the NHL.

Russia has unlimited outdoor ice for 5 to 6 months a year, but far less investment in indoor rinks, coaching, recruitment and hockey development. There has been a positive change in that direction since the creation of the KHL and MHL, and revitalization of the VHL, but they are only at about 20% capacity at this time.
 
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wings5

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I would probably agree that the US and Germany are far from maxing out their potential. But much of this potential would be difficult to reach because it would be unlikely for hockey to surpass the more popular sports like American Football, Basketball, Baseball, Soccer (Germany).

They most likely won't surpass these sports, but if hockey can pry even a handful of the top athletes away from some of these sports and increase the number of players playing in each state/region. That's all you can ask for right now. US has the resources to do so as does Russia, Germany would have to put more money into developing the proper infrastructures , high level youth coaches etc.
 

wings5

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Jan 6, 2008
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In considering the hockey potential of the US, I thought about a couple of elements that influence developing new players: (1) is it a popular sport that kids want to learn to play, and (2) how can they go about learning to play the game? In the US, I think these two elements kind of merge.

By a very small margin, hockey is the second most popular sport in Russia, just behind football. Kids dream about growing up to become a player. My impression is that in the US, hockey is the 4th or 5th most popular sport at best. I think that the best young athletes in the US gravitate toward the sports that have much greater prestige in their communities, such as American football, basketball and baseball. There are a large number of American players on NHL rosters, but not many really talented or dominant players. Given the massive numbers of youth players reported, this seems to be a bit of anomaly. Outside of the NHL cities located in warm weather climates, there is no outdoor skating, and too few indoor rinks to support a major expansion in American talent.

The geographic areas where kids can learn to play hockey in the neighborhood are limited to a few locations along the northern border with Canada. In other words, locations like those in Russia and Canada where it is cold enough to build "yard rinks" where kids can play for hours on end for 4 to 6 months in the winter. Given the limited geographic locale of outdoor skating, there are substantially fewer American kids who dream about playing in the NHL.

Russia has unlimited outdoor ice for 5 to 6 months a year, but far less investment in indoor rinks, coaching, recruitment and hockey development. There has been a positive change in that direction since the creation of the KHL and MHL, and revitalization of the VHL, but they are only at about 20% capacity at this time.

Warm States such as California and have made massive improvements in the development of their players over the past decade. This can be done in other states as well but there is just a lack of hockey culture. Demographics also differ largely from state to state and certain minority groups will never even give hockey a thought due to the cost of the sport if and because the faces of the NHL are mostly Caucasian players . Seeing faces of your own ethnic group succeed in sport will allow a kid to at least dream that it can be possible for them as well and also give them a role model. You're likely not to dethrone the other sports that are much cheaper in the US. In Russia improvements are still being made unfortunately development of elite centers has been their Achilles heel for some time. However as seen with the recent improvements in defenceman development and especially goalies, if the development of certain positions are focuses on you will see improvement. Infrastructure for the most part is there in Russia as well
 

Firsov99

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Feb 17, 2006
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They most likely won't surpass these sports, but if hockey can pry even a handful of the top athletes away from some of these sports and increase the number of players playing in each state/region. That's all you can ask for right now. US has the resources to do so as does Russia, Germany would have to put more money into developing the proper infrastructures , high level youth coaches etc.
We both think in similar terms: how do we redirect some talent from the more popular sports to hockey. It's quite a challenge though considering that hockey is a more expensive sport, and climate doesn't allow to play pond hockey in California, Texas, Florida, etc. We can't rely on the Minnesota, Michigan, and New York hockey talent mines to squeeze out the extra "handful". The extra talent should come from the populous southern states, in my opinion. I am not sure though how this could be achieved.

Russia's situation is very different though.
 

wings5

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Jan 6, 2008
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We both think in similar terms: how do we redirect some talent from the more popular sports to hockey. It's quite a challenge though considering that hockey is a more expensive sport, and climate doesn't allow to play pond hockey in California, Texas, Florida, etc. We can't rely on the Minnesota, Michigan, and New York hockey talent mines to squeeze out the extra "handful". The extra talent should come from the populous southern states, in my opinion. I am not sure though how this could be achieved.

Russia's situation is very different though.

It's tough, a sport like soccer is in the US is decently popular for young kids but kids often stop early and switch to another sport as theres not much money to be made in the US for soccer. You can make more money as a pro athlete playing hockey but not as much as baseball, basketball, and football which are also waayyyy cheaper sports to play. California has had some good development in youth hockey and Florida is also improving with Olli Jokinen, Vokoun and Dvorak all coaching South Florida hockey academy which helps. Will still be hard to produce hockey players in football states like Lousiana, Texas, Georgia etc so the only way there can be improvement there is marketing and making hockey more easily accessible for young kids. Kids often get football equipment provided free in youth football , imagine the same were done for hockey. Also again need more representation from minorities which fits into marketing , this will likely come from a Canadian athlete, hopefully players like Byfield can make some noise in the NHL.

Back on topic, Russia's obvious weakness especially seen on this years WJC candidates remains center depth. They can develop wingers for days but for some reason it seems there is something missing when it comes to center development. Kids don't want to play the position? I don't know but if a good Russian player when 14/15 years old is listed as C/W, they often will transition to wing at higher levels of hockey, seems like a fix that wouldn't be too difficult but currently even their center often play like wingers.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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We both think in similar terms: how do we redirect some talent from the more popular sports to hockey. It's quite a challenge though considering that hockey is a more expensive sport, and climate doesn't allow to play pond hockey in California, Texas, Florida, etc. We can't rely on the Minnesota, Michigan, and New York hockey talent mines to squeeze out the extra "handful". The extra talent should come from the populous southern states, in my opinion. I am not sure though how this could be achieved.

Russia's situation is very different though.

When you pinpoint exactly where in the "Southern States" indoor rinks have been built, almost all have been built in Los Angeles, Dallas, Phoenix, Tampa Bay and Miami, where NHL franchises exist. In fact, many of the rinks have actually been built by the NHL franchises, such as in Dallas, where a friend of mine tells me that there are about ten "Star Centers" that have been built by the Dallas Stars. But these are all located in rich, white areas where kids can afford to pay the fees to use indoor rinks year-round and make international trips for tournaments. That is a very limited demographic. So in a huge metropolis like Dallas-Fort Worth, with a population of nearly 8 million, you have 2 or 3 guys who end up skating a regular shift in the NHL. The expected explosion of stars in the US has never materialized.
 

vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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Russia is a big country, having cold & warm regions. Hockey is popular in traditionally hockey regions like Moscow, Povolzhie, Ural, Sibir, North around St.Pete + Loko/Cherepovets. And even there it is not working for 100%. Not speaking about other regions, either warm one or without hockey infrastructure. And that is a big issue. Russia has been working on it, building small rinks around the country. Meanwhile, hockey should be implemented as a school subject in elementary & high schools. But that is a long process .... You need to teach many coaches while building many rinks.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Russia is a big country, having cold & warm regions. Hockey is popular in traditionally hockey regions like Moscow, Povolzhie, Ural, Sibir, North around St.Pete + Loko/Cherepovets. And even there it is not working for 100%. Not speaking about other regions, either warm one or without hockey infrastructure. And that is a big issue. Russia has been working on it, building small rinks around the country. Meanwhile, hockey should be implemented as a school subject in elementary & high schools. But that is a long process .... You need to teach many coaches while building many rinks.

It is a long way away, but Russian elementary and high schools should sponsor school teams to compete against other schools. Extend the competition through Regions, maybe up to a national championship. This is a system that the US uses effectively, especially for American football, basketball and baseball, but also hockey in places where hockey is played. The advantage of a school system is that it goes far deeper in identifying talented prospects who could then be supported by existing hockey leagues (e.g., MHL, VHL). As you say so well, there are large Regions of Russia where, despite being able to skate outdoors for 6 plus months each year, hockey is in relative terms nonexistent.
 
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vorky

@vorkywh24
Jan 23, 2010
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It is a long way away, but Russian elementary and high schools should sponsor school teams to compete against other schools. Extend the competition through Regions, maybe up to a national championship. This is a system that the US uses effectively, especially for American football, basketball and baseball, but also hockey in places where hockey is played. The advantage of a school system is that it goes far deeper in identifying talented prospects who could then be supported by existing hockey leagues (e.g., MHL, VHL). As you say so well, there are large Regions of Russia where, despite being able to skate outdoors for 6 plus months each year, hockey is in relative terms nonexistent.
Agree. I would just add that such competitions between school teams will not be sponsored by schools themselves but rather regional/federal governments or pro clubs. Thats the Russian way. It works a bit different in America.

For example, Avangard Omsk is building outdoor rinks in Omsk & region. All these rinks will be run as club´s franchises, all scouted by Avangard & the best kids moving to Avangard´s youth academy, which was finished a few months ago. Basically, this academy is a pro hockey (kids above 15).

Avangard hockey youth academy


SKA Hockey Town Academy. The same model as Omsk and Kazan. Swedes have the same model and the Russian Hockey Federation (with the federal government) is planning to launch similar hockey academies in several bigger regions/cities.
 
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Firsov99

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Feb 17, 2006
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so the only way there can be improvement there is marketing and making hockey more easily accessible for young kids
Yes, this would help, but the problem is that hockey development is a riskier investment. There are simply safer choices where money could be made. That's why I hold the view that the US might not be able to tap its undeniably enormous hockey potential in the near future. The sport has too many constraints, but I would be delighted to be wrong.

Russia's situation is very different because it's not as money-driven as the one in the US. Financial ROI might not be as critical for success, and the development program is more centralized. Although it's true that money and nepotism have played a much bigger role now in comparison to the Soviet times where virtually everything was paid by the state, and talented kids were sought after across a much larger geographical area.
 
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Firsov99

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Feb 17, 2006
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When you pinpoint exactly where in the "Southern States" indoor rinks have been built, almost all have been built in Los Angeles, Dallas, Phoenix, Tampa Bay and Miami, where NHL franchises exist. In fact, many of the rinks have actually been built by the NHL franchises, such as in Dallas, where a friend of mine tells me that there are about ten "Star Centers" that have been built by the Dallas Stars. But these are all located in rich, white areas where kids can afford to pay the fees to use indoor rinks year-round and make international trips for tournaments. That is a very limited demographic. So in a huge metropolis like Dallas-Fort Worth, with a population of nearly 8 million, you have 2 or 3 guys who end up skating a regular shift in the NHL. The expected explosion of stars in the US has never materialized.
You are correct. That's why I mentioned that hockey is an expensive sport (its biggest constraint), and kids from lower middle class and below typically end up playing a different sport.
 

Yakushev72

Registered User
Dec 27, 2010
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Agree. I would just add that such competitions between school teams will not be sponsored by schools themselves but rather regional/federal governments or pro clubs. Thats the Russian way. It works a bit different in America.

For example, Avangard Omsk is building outdoor rinks in Omsk & region. All these rinks will be run as club´s franchises, all scouted by Avangard & the best kids moving to Avangard´s youth academy, which was finished a few months ago. Basically, this academy is a pro hockey (kids above 15).

Avangard hockey youth academy


SKA Hockey Town Academy. The same model as Omsk and Kazan. Swedes have the same model and the Russian Hockey Federation (with the federal government) is planning to launch similar hockey academies in several bigger regions/cities.


You are 100% correct. In Russia, "community funded" translates to "Kremlin" or "Duma." And of course, the great majority of funds for hockey comes from oligarchs and conglomerates like LUKOIL and GAZPROM. This is a big stumbling block, I think, and the reason Russia lags behind where they could be in improving the game. City and Oblast-level government has no ability to collect the kind of taxes like they do in Canada, Sweden, Finland and the US to build local rinks and fund coaches and other vital infrastructure. So Russian schools would have no funds to create teams, build rinks, hire coaches, etc. It would be out of the question!

Great videos! Its always great to see the kids having fun, and I still believe that, inheriting and refining methods developed in the Soviet days, Russia does a better job of teaching kids fundamental skills than probably anyone else! Borrowing from the Tarasov tradition, coaches are still good at teaching skills by creating drills that are fun, so the kids are really working hard but hardly notice it!
 
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wings5

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You are 100% correct. In Russia, "community funded" translates to "Kremlin" or "Duma." And of course, the great majority of funds for hockey comes from oligarchs and conglomerates like LUKOIL and GAZPROM. This is a big stumbling block, I think, and the reason Russia lags behind where they could be in improving the game. City and Oblast-level government has no ability to collect the kind of taxes like they do in Canada, Sweden, Finland and the US to build local rinks and fund coaches and other vital infrastructure. So Russian schools would have no funds to create teams, build rinks, hire coaches, etc. It would be out of the question!

Great videos! Its always great to see the kids having fun, and I still believe that, inheriting and refining methods developed in the Soviet days, Russia does a better job of teaching kids fundamental skills than probably anyone else! Borrowing from the Tarasov tradition, coaches are still good at teaching skills by creating drills that are fun, so the kids are really working hard but hardly notice it!

Personal Income tax rate is at 13 % except for non residents where tax rate for Russian sourced income is at 30 %. This is just looking at personal income tax itself of course but is a system where the wealthy pay a higher percentage in taxes or where there is tax brackets not heavily supported? This would help fund any of the infrastructure which may be lacking
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Personal Income tax rate is at 13 % except for non residents where tax rate for Russian sourced income is at 30 %. This is just looking at personal income tax itself of course but is a system where the wealthy pay a higher percentage in taxes or where there is tax brackets not heavily supported? This would help fund any of the infrastructure which may be lacking

Personal income has increased incrementally but steadily since about 2004, when Russia was finally emerging from the deep economic depression of the 1990's (substantially worse than US depression in the 1930's), but personal income overall is very low in comparison to really wealthy countries like the US, Canada, Sweden, etc.. This is especially true outside of Moscow and St. Petersburg, and a few energy-rich regions in the Urals and Siberia. Many cities lack the income to make needed structural improvements, much less build recreational facilittes.
 

Atas2000

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Jan 18, 2011
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It is a long way away, but Russian elementary and high schools should sponsor school teams to compete against other schools. Extend the competition through Regions, maybe up to a national championship. This is a system that the US uses effectively, especially for American football, basketball and baseball, but also hockey in places where hockey is played. The advantage of a school system is that it goes far deeper in identifying talented prospects who could then be supported by existing hockey leagues (e.g., MHL, VHL). As you say so well, there are large Regions of Russia where, despite being able to skate outdoors for 6 plus months each year, hockey is in relative terms nonexistent.
Sorry, but this is a non-sensical attempt to copy the US system. We definitely shouldn't do that. It is flawed for a huge number of reasons and wrong for Russia.

Instead there are already enough youth tournaments in place and right now the revitalizing of that system for kids is in progress. This is not a problem at all. It will work just fine without mindless attempts to copy something that is not appropriate to our tradition here. The KHL, FHR and Rotenberg are doing enough damage in that department on the top level. I am glad it does not infect the junior and kids hockey.
 

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