2021 Roster Thread XVI - Where thoughts are both sweet and sour

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Icedog2735

Registered User
Aug 19, 2006
744
309
Stratford, CT
As someone who mostly lurks and reads these threads to fill in the void of having anyone in my social circle to talk Flyers with, I'm really starting to become confused as to what some here actually want out of this offseason. Don't acquire Jones/Hamilton because the cost will be too prohibitive plus we already have Ghost to play with Provorov but then we'll criticize the GM for not being able to upgrade the roster and make the team better? I am in complete agreement that both the GM and the coach should be heavily questioned and criticized and that they should very much be on the hot seat moving forward (Fletcher needs to have a strong offseason improving the roster and resigning key players and AV needs to come into next season with a new or adjusted system that matches the team's strengths); but can't we just spare the 'I know whatever they do is going to suck' narrative just so that some of you can say I told you so later on. How much is too much to move and give up for Hamilton? What would be a fair contract to sign him at? If not him then what does the team do to improve their roster?
 

Prongo

Beer
Jun 5, 2008
22,567
8,212
philadelphia
Hamilton is seeking close to Pietrangelo money and term supposedly. I think people said he will get 6/7 year deal with an average starting with 8. I’m perfectly fine going that route. I’m not giving up major assets in a sign and trade. If the contract is 8 years for the sake of the sign and trade, the average would need to start with a 7.

8 years
7.75 million per year. He will probably get 8 million in that type of deal though.
 
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wankstifier

All glory to the harvest god
Jun 19, 2018
7,683
11,097
As someone who mostly lurks and reads these threads to fill in the void of having anyone in my social circle to talk Flyers with, I'm really starting to become confused as to what some here actually want out of this offseason. Don't acquire Jones/Hamilton because the cost will be too prohibitive plus we already have Ghost to play with Provorov but then we'll criticize the GM for not being able to upgrade the roster and make the team better? I am in complete agreement that both the GM and the coach should be heavily questioned and criticized and that they should very much be on the hot seat moving forward (Fletcher needs to have a strong offseason improving the roster and resigning key players and AV needs to come into next season with a new or adjusted system that matches the team's strengths); but can't we just spare the 'I know whatever they do is going to suck' narrative just so that some of you can say I told you so later on. How much is too much to move and give up for Hamilton? What would be a fair contract to sign him at? If not him then what does the team do to improve their roster?

We want the Flyers to make all the picks in the 7th.
 
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deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
There really wasn't much of a falloff in performance from 2019-20 to 2020-21, other than the loss of Niskanen and the goaltenders.
Scoring was off a bit, but how much performance, how much "puck luck?"
Lindblom was cancer, Laughton was puck luck both years (and COVID), NAK?, TK? Patrick scored at a 2C rate two years ago.
So even before you add the additions to the roster, you can expect some bounce back in scoring from forwards.

The 2019-20 team was on a 106 point pace, with slightly below average goalie play.
That team is pretty much intact, other than Niskanen (Pitlick, Raffl are the only other losses).
So Fletcher should remember: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Couts CF 56.61%, xGF 55.58% v CF 57.86%, xGF 53. 57% - 2.68 ES pp/60 v 2.81
G CF 54.30%, xGF 53.95% v CF 55.20%, xGF 53.41% - 1.82 v 2.41
TK CF 54.75%, xGF 54.76% v CF 53.85%, xGF 51.25% - 2.51 v 2.03
Voracek CF 52.99%, xGF 51.77% v CF 50.53%, xGF 47.79% - 2.43 v 2.78
Hayes CF 49.26%, xGF 49.43% v CF 48.90%, xGF 51.54% - 1.87 v 1.76
JVR CF 53.22%, xGF 56.22% v CF 53.43%, xGF 52.43% - 2.30 v 2.41

Farabee CF 49.60%, xGF 46.65% v CF 49.34%, xGF 50.50% - 1.77 v 2.70
Laughton CF 47.35%, xGF 46.95% v CF 49.56%, xGF 50.60% - 2.62 v 1.61
Lindblom CF 54.13%, xGF 53.35% v CF 48.10%, xGF 49.90% - 2.03 v 1.51
NAK CF 50.64%, xGF 54.48% v CF 50.26%, xGF 46.79% - 1.95 v 1.32
Patrick [2018-19: CF 45.81%, xGF 47.84%] v CF 49.29%, xGF 50.03% - 1.81 v 0.62

Those are your 11 forwards plus Allison, Frost and Laczynski.

Sanheim CF 52.52%, xGF 51.69% v CF 52.52%, xGF 51.08% - 1.06 v 0.85
Provorov CF 51.86%, xGF 52.59% v CF 48.87%, xGF 49.52% - 0.87 v 0.87
Braun CF 50.92%, xGF 50.91% v CF 50.37%, xGF 49.54% - 1.15 v 0.42
Myers CF 52.03%, xGF 50.74% v CF 52.48, xGF 50.18% - 1.17 v 0.87
Ghost CF 51.05%, xGF 46.69% v CF 50.90%, xGF 51.40% - 0.65 v 0.94
Hagg CF 45.02%, xGF 45.90% v CF 52.36%, xGF 50.06% - 1.02 v 0.63

York is pretty much a lock to start in 2021-22.

GAA - xGF/60
Hart +0.06 v +1.25
Elliott +0.45 v +0.83
 
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BrindamoursNose

Registered User
Oct 14, 2008
20,032
14,090
As someone who mostly lurks and reads these threads to fill in the void of having anyone in my social circle to talk Flyers with, I'm really starting to become confused as to what some here actually want out of this offseason. Don't acquire Jones/Hamilton because the cost will be too prohibitive plus we already have Ghost to play with Provorov but then we'll criticize the GM for not being able to upgrade the roster and make the team better? I am in complete agreement that both the GM and the coach should be heavily questioned and criticized and that they should very much be on the hot seat moving forward (Fletcher needs to have a strong offseason improving the roster and resigning key players and AV needs to come into next season with a new or adjusted system that matches the team's strengths); but can't we just spare the 'I know whatever they do is going to suck' narrative just so that some of you can say I told you so later on. How much is too much to move and give up for Hamilton? What would be a fair contract to sign him at? If not him then what does the team do to improve their roster?

You've pretty much summarized the mess that is this fan base right now.

I'll take a second to defend others whom are less interested in making these moves...the large belief is that any move is stained by AV being here. Some players aren't wanted here by the fans because they know how AV will screw the player up. If it were another coach, I think many fans would be happier to have Jones/Hamilton/etc.
 
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Icedog2735

Registered User
Aug 19, 2006
744
309
Stratford, CT
You've pretty much summarized the mess that is this fan base right now.

I'll take a second to defend others whom are less interested in making these moves...the large belief is that any move is stained by AV being here. Some players aren't wanted here by the fans because they know how AV will screw the player up. If it were another coach, I think many fans would be happier to have Jones/Hamilton/etc.

Absolutely, and I think that is a more than fair. I definitely need to see adjustments out of AV this year, however, I don't want to just go into the season with a pessimistic attitude that it won't happen. Any players like the ones being thrown around here would improve the roster and I would have to believe outlast the coach in Philadelphia, whether that's in one year or in many years from now. I'm also not of the opinion that the team was playing great hockey in early 2020 in spite of their coach and I'm hopeful that given a return to normal circumstances that have not been seen in the league since then that the team can get back to that level of play.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
49,215
21,617
Most people who want drastic change simply ignore the real reason for last year's collapse, awful goaltending.
Flyer goaltenders allowed a goal a game above what you'd expect given the quality of shots.
That's not bad goaltending, that's historically bad goaltending.

Fix that and this is a playoff team.
Add Frost, Allison, Laczynski and York, and this is a deep team.

They're going to lose one player in the ED, but they're also going to get a healthy Lindblom back.
Patrick is the wildcard, he actually had much better advanced metrics than two years ago, but his scoring went from 1.18 to a ridiculously low 0.62 PP/60.

So forget Hamilton, Jones, Eichel - FIX THE GOALTENDING.
After that, all this team needs are minor tweaks.
If you fix the goalies, and AV can't win with this team, he has to go.
 

Striiker

Former Flyers Fan
Jun 2, 2013
89,441
155,158
Pennsylvania
I see were doing that thing where we pretend that there's no ways to improve the team other than signing Jones and that if you don't want to do that then you don't want to do anything.

Meanwhile, also doing that other dumb thing where we take the complaints of two completely different groups and combine them into one to pretend that people are contradicting themselves.
 
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Psuhockey

Registered User
Nov 17, 2010
6,373
2,282
Hamilton is seeking close to Pietrangelo money and term supposedly. I think people said he will get 6/7 year deal with an average starting with 8. I’m perfectly fine going that route. I’m not giving up major assets in a sign and trade. If the contract is 8 years for the sake of the sign and trade, the average would need to start with a 7.

8 years
7.75 million per year. He will probably get 8 million in that type of deal though.
He’s getting 8 years over 8 easy if not from the Flyers from somewhere else. And I would imagine Carolina will get at least a 2nd round pick from the trade.
 

LegionOfGloom

Registered User
Jun 9, 2021
332
871
As someone who mostly lurks and reads these threads to fill in the void of having anyone in my social circle to talk Flyers with, I'm really starting to become confused as to what some here actually want out of this offseason. Don't acquire Jones/Hamilton because the cost will be too prohibitive plus we already have Ghost to play with Provorov but then we'll criticize the GM for not being able to upgrade the roster and make the team better? I am in complete agreement that both the GM and the coach should be heavily questioned and criticized and that they should very much be on the hot seat moving forward (Fletcher needs to have a strong offseason improving the roster and resigning key players and AV needs to come into next season with a new or adjusted system that matches the team's strengths); but can't we just spare the 'I know whatever they do is going to suck' narrative just so that some of you can say I told you so later on. How much is too much to move and give up for Hamilton? What would be a fair contract to sign him at? If not him then what does the team do to improve their roster?
I'm also a long time lurker that just recently registered. It seems to me that this fan base always blames the coach. That's not to say that AV or any prior coach was particularly good but there is this mindset that the coach is always to blame and if only we had a new coach, the players would play up to their potential. But that hasn't been the case for the last five coaching changes so perhaps the issue is a little more complicated than that.
 
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Prongo

Beer
Jun 5, 2008
22,567
8,212
philadelphia
He’s getting 8 years over 8 easy if not from the Flyers from somewhere else. And I would imagine Carolina will get at least a 2nd round pick from the trade.
My general idea was a third rounder for him in a sign and trade but knowing the GMs around the league a second rounder sounds about right.

I actually thought what if the Flyers trade Ghost to Carolina for a signed Hamilton? I don’t think Carolina would do that but just brainstorming on my morning walk.
 

Flocky Hockey

Registered User
Jun 21, 2018
5
7
There really wasn't much of a falloff in performance from 2019-20 to 2020-21, other than the loss of Niskanen and the goaltenders.
Scoring was off a bit, but how much performance, how much "puck luck?"
Lindblom was cancer, Laughton was puck luck both years (and COVID), NAK?, TK? Patrick scored at a 2C rate two years ago.
So even before you add the additions to the roster, you can expect some bounce back in scoring from forwards.

The 2019-20 team was on a 106 point pace, with slightly below average goalie play.
That team is pretty much intact, other than Niskanen (Pitlick, Raffl are the only other losses).
So Fletcher should remember: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Couts CF 56.61%, xGF 55.58% v CF 57.86%, xGF 53. 57% - 2.68 ES pp/60 v 2.81
G CF 54.30%, xGF 53.95% v CF 55.20%, xGF 53.41% - 1.82 v 2.41
TK CF 54.75%, xGF 54.76% v CF 53.85%, xGF 51.25% - 2.51 v 2.03
Voracek CF 52.99%, xGF 51.77% v CF 50.53%, xGF 47.79% - 2.43 v 2.78
Hayes CF 49.26%, xGF 49.43% v CF 48.90%, xGF 51.54% - 1.87 v 1.76
JVR CF 53.22%, xGF 56.22% v CF 53.43%, xGF 52.43% - 2.30 v 2.41

Farabee CF 49.60%, xGF 46.65% v CF 49.34%, xGF 50.50% - 1.77 v 2.70
Laughton CF 47.35%, xGF 46.95% v CF 49.56%, xGF 50.60% - 2.62 v 1.61
Lindblom CF 54.13%, xGF 53.35% v CF 48.10%, xGF 49.90% - 2.03 v 1.51
NAK CF 50.64%, xGF 54.48% v CF 50.26%, xGF 46.79% - 1.95 v 1.32
Patrick [2018-19: CF 45.81%, xGF 47.84%] v CF 49.29%, xGF 50.03% - 1.81 v 0.62

Those are your 11 forwards plus Allison, Frost and Laczynski.

Sanheim CF 52.52%, xGF 51.69% v CF 52.52%, xGF 51.08% - 1.06 v 0.85
Provorov CF 51.86%, xGF 52.59% v CF 48.87%, xGF 49.52% - 0.87 v 0.87
Braun CF 50.92%, xGF 50.91% v CF 50.37%, xGF 49.54% - 1.15 v 0.42
Myers CF 52.03%, xGF 50.74% v CF 52.48, xGF 50.18% - 1.17 v 0.87
Ghost CF 51.05%, xGF 46.69% v CF 50.90%, xGF 51.40% - 0.65 v 0.94
Hagg CF 45.02%, xGF 45.90% v CF 52.36%, xGF 50.06% - 1.02 v 0.63

York is pretty much a lock to start in 2021-22.

GAA - xGF/60
Hart +0.06 v +1.25
Elliott +0.45 v +0.83

Problem is nobody on this board takes a look at this from a business lens. This team has less juice than the Union and are in the same building as the 76ers. If they roll basically the same team out next year there is going to be zero fan interest. Not saying it is the right move but they need a major shake up. Nobody likes this team as is. They are boring and last year they came across as not working hard. That is a killer in the Philly market.
 
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Icedog2735

Registered User
Aug 19, 2006
744
309
Stratford, CT
I see were doing that thing where we pretend that there's no ways to improve the team other than signing Jones and that if you don't want to do that then you don't want to do anything.

Meanwhile, also doing that other dumb thing where we take the complaints of two completely different groups and combine them into one to pretend that people are contradicting themselves.

I can only speak for my post and say that I do believe there are ways to improve the team other than the two defensemen being talked about and that I haven't seen any discussion otherwise. It's just the typical AV sucks, Fletcher cant do anything, Hayes sucks, Provorov is overrated, Ghost doesn't suck, you're all just Authentic Fans, etc etc etc. But maybe I'm just reading the wrong threads and looking in the wrong places.
 

Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
127,486
164,338
Armored Train
Problem is nobody on this board takes a look at this from a business lens. This team has less juice than the Union and are in the same building as the 76ers. If they roll basically the same team out next year there is going to be zero fan interest. Not saying it is the right move but they need a major shake up. Nobody likes this team as is. They are boring and last year they came across as not working hard. That is a killer in the Philly market.

They've done nothing to the coaching staff who did the most to make the product awful, so it appears they don't care about the marketing part very much.

Making Hayes the new face of the franchise is like scraping wet farts out of their pants to sell as cheeseburgers and wondering why people aren't enthused.

Even from a business standpoint, this team is cognitively crippled. They do nothing well. The whole organization needs to be purged and bleached from top down. Fresh minds, fresh ideas, fresh attitudes.
 

JojoTheWhale

CORN BOY
May 22, 2008
33,325
103,979
Problem is nobody on this board takes a look at this from a business lens. This team has less juice than the Union and are in the same building as the 76ers. If they roll basically the same team out next year there is going to be zero fan interest. Not saying it is the right move but they need a major shake up. Nobody likes this team as is. They are boring and last year they came across as not working hard. That is a killer in the Philly market.

Working hard doesn't sell. Every Northeast market thinks they're the pure ones that can see the game within the game. Winning sells. That's it outside of extreme corner cases like the Knicks and Cubs.

We've had entire threads dedicated to this. I assure you there are people here who see that the business is floundering locally compared to what it used to be and that this will be the biggest guiding factor.
 

Deadpool8812

Registered User
Feb 10, 2018
12,658
16,085
You've pretty much summarized the mess that is this fan base right now.

I'll take a second to defend others whom are less interested in making these moves...the large belief is that any move is stained by AV being here. Some players aren't wanted here by the fans because they know how AV will screw the player up. If it were another coach, I think many fans would be happier to have Jones/Hamilton/etc.

Until fans find other reasons to hate the other coach
 

GKJ

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
185,649
37,445
Elliotte Friedman upon being told by someone that the Flyers are in on Hamilton, later got pushback from others and doesn’t believe is he the Flyers top target
 
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TheKingPin

Registered User
Nov 16, 2005
20,494
9,948
Philadelphia, PA
It was 1 yes and more than 1 no. He thinks it’s ‘Jones or someone else’
Have to hope and pray the someone else is Ellis and that’s who we get if Hamilton is not the target. Sounded like that was a close deal before the preds started winning but that it’s still on the table. I believe Ellis has as good numbers as Hamilton.
 

Prongo

Beer
Jun 5, 2008
22,567
8,212
philadelphia
Elliotte Friedman upon being told by someone that the Flyers are in on Hamilton, later got pushback from others and doesn’t believe is he the Flyers top target
So we are interested but we aren’t. Seems like leaking information to the media to try and not overpay for a player you value.

Also, if he isn’t their top target I am worried what the hell.
 
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