2021 Roster Thread XV - Where everyone is in agreement about what is needed

[wankstifier]

I’ll admit. Your takes at times, especially when grounded in analytics, can be convincing. And then there are takes like this where you throw a tantrum and throw around absolutes. Always wrong? Is this where the 12 year old thing stems from? You really would get destroyed in any court of law with arguments like these. Do you understand what circumstantial evidence even entails? Or do you always just hilariously over simplify things and call other posters idiots and call it a day?

Sir, this is hfboards

 

[Ghosts Beer]

There's a huge gap between believing Patrick wants out, through nothing but circumstantial evidence, and acting on this belief, GB. It's ridiculous to mighty-morph the circumstantial to a concrete foundation for the many additional invectives being heaped on him. Do I also have the liberty to believe, based on the same circumstantial evidence, that the Flyers were actually not very patient with him, possibly pushing Patrick to return earlier than he felt he was able, and that this may have caused a rift?

Yeah, Patrick was stuck in N for the majority of his season. That's a big concern. Is there reason to believe he can do much, much better? I definitely think so. Short leash but I think he continues to be worth the low risk of being in the lineup at a small cap hit. The Flyers aren't at the "throwing good money after bad" stage with Patrick yet. And it isn't as though another bad start to the season would lower his trade value.

Interviews tell me nothing about the inner competitiveness of a player.

I don't think Patrick should be immune to fan criticism and expressions of frustration. If people believe the rumors that he wants out of Philly, and interpret his hiring of a new agent, and the agent's response to questions about requesting a trade, as supporting those rumors, then it's only natural that some fans are going to vent. That's 90% of what message boards are.

If someone wants to believe that the Flyers weren't patient with Patrick, forced him to return earlier than he felt able, and caused a rift, that's their prerogative. I would respond by saying that is complete conjecture, which doesn't necessarily make it untrue; but there have been no reports indicating that is the case, unlike the circumstantial evidence indicating that Patrick would like out of Philly (hiring of a new agent; agent's cryptic quotes re: requesting a trade; media rumors that he wants out).

Interviews may not say anything on their own about the inner competitiveness of a player, but combined with low-motor on-ice play, an entire missed season, and rumors of a questionable work ethic dating back to his junior days, those interviews sure don't disabuse any notions that he's not a particularly passionate hockey player.

 

[Striiker]

I’ll admit. Your takes at times, especially when grounded in analytics, can be convincing. And then there are takes like this where you throw a tantrum and throw around absolutes. Always wrong? Is this where the 12 year old thing stems from? You really would get destroyed in any court of law with arguments like these. Do you understand what circumstantial evidence even entails? Or do you always just hilariously over simplify things and call other posters idiots and call it a day?

When you're done whining, find me the last time the Flyers traded for a guy they had been heavily rumored to be going after.

 

[FLYguy3911]

When you're done whining, find me the last time the Flyers traded for a guy they had been heavily rumored to be going after.

NHL trade deadline: Flyers acquire Nate Thompson in trade with Canadiens

 

[renberg]

I’ll admit. Your takes at times, especially when grounded in analytics, can be convincing. And then there are takes like this where you throw a tantrum and throw around absolutes. Always wrong? Is this where the 12 year old thing stems from? You really would get destroyed in any court of law with arguments like these. Do you understand what circumstantial evidence even entails? Or do you always just hilariously over simplify things and call other posters idiots and call it a day?

This isn't really circumstantial evidence. It unsubstantiated rumor which resembles click bait.

 

[tucson83]

If people believe Patrick wants out of Philly, which I don't believe is an unwarranted conclusion, then I understand expressing frustration. He's been a frustrating player. He has shown no consistency on the ice, his motor seems very low, the organization was very patient with him and invested a lot of time and medical resources in him as he missed an entire season, and he is coming off of an absolutely dreadful season at the age of 22. Not only that, but he comes across as utterly uninterested and passionless in interviews, just like his playing style.

I think it's fair to believe it's best to move on instead of devoting a roster spot to him and relying on him to suddenly change. If he weren't the 2nd overall pick 4 years ago, would the team be devoting a roster spot to him? It's not good to have unproductive, unhappy players taking up a regular roster spot.

a player that acts like this doesnt scream a competitor, competitors dont moan and groan and they just play and want to win regardless of who is coaching this team.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Yeah, it'll kill this team to use Patrick in the bottom six next year, because if J Cates or Ratcliffe or Willman are forced to start the season in the AHL, that will be a disaster, much the way Stewart's 160 minutes cost them a shot at the Cup.

Patrick will probably get a low cost one or two year "prove it" deal, he'll be told the organization has been patient, and they understand he's had bad luck, but he really needs to step it up because there's a flood of young forwards on the way and after 2021-22, there probably won't be an opportunity to give him PT if he doesn't elevate his game. Nothing personal, but they're not warehousing Foerster, Wisdom, Brink and JOB to keep him around indefinitely.

That assumes they won't be able to find an upgrade from Patrick in the bottom six besides Cates, Ratcliffe, or Willman, which I do not believe to be correct whatsoever.

3rd line center is an extremely important role. Do you really want to reserve a spot at 3C for an unreliable, inconsistent, low-motor player coming off of 9 points in 52 games, with a -30?

And is Patrick really the type of player you want on your 4th line? A guy who spends most of his time floating around? Let alone a guy who it seems more likely than not is unhappy and would like to play elsewhere? It sure doesn't seem likely he'd embrace a 4th line role, let alone be a good fit for a 4th line. You want 4th line centers like Cizikas, who know their role and give it their all every shift.

 

[Rebels57]

Keith and at least one 7th

Which we'll then flip to Montreal for their 2023 7th.

 

[Starat327]

Jesus christ, real life misery is better than this knuckle dragger bullshit some of you spew. Good luck, @Striiker

 

[Prongo]

It means nothing until it’s more than rumor/speculation. Some people just desperately want it to be true, so they've convinced themselves that it is.

Every offseasons the fanbase does this shit with the “wHeN tHeRes ThIs mUcH sMoKe tHeRe mUst bE fIrE” logic, which is always wrong. That’s why we didn’t trade Ghost or add EKane or Byfuglien or Bobby Ryan any of the other people there’s been endless rumors about over the past decade.

The media stirs up shut for attention and article/tweet views. How do people still not get this?

The rumors you mentioned were pretty much generated by one loser who takes advantage of fans who just want rumors.

Friedman is a little more credible than Eklund so him mentioning it via his podcast is a indication that there might be something there.

Again, I’m not beating my chest saying he’s gone but I’m also not saying that when a guy like Friedman makes that comment there is some basis for it. I’m in the grey area where I’m preparing for him to be moved but I’m not saying the guy is gone and I don’t care what he is moved for.

 

[orangey]

Should Patrick want out what would Flyers be looking for? Another C or futures?

5th rounder should do it!

 

[Ghosts Beer]

This isn't really circumstantial evidence. It unsubstantiated rumor which resembles click bait.

Hiring a new agent, and then that agent not denying direct questions about whether Patrick will be asking for a trade, aren't circumstantial evidence? Especially when combined with rumors from multiple media members that Patrick wants out? I beg to differ.

 

[FlyerNutter]

I don’t really feel one way or another about him - he’s kind of just “there” for me at this point but here is a nice photo.

 

[deadhead]

Why would the Flyers care if he asked for a trade?
It's not like he has options.

Patrick comes from a hockey family, he knows he needs to work his ass off this summer, come into camp in the best shape of his life, and show he's moved past the migraines - otherwise not only does he not have a future in Philly, he doesn't have a future anywhere in the NHL.

 

[Rebels57]

The rumors you mentioned were pretty much generated by one loser who takes advantage of fans who just want rumors.

Friedman is a little more credible than Eklund so him mentioning it via his podcast is a indication that there might be something there.

Again, I’m not beating my chest saying he’s gone but I’m also not saying that when a guy like Friedman makes that comment there is some basis for it. I’m in the grey area where I’m preparing for him to be moved but I’m not saying the guy is gone and I don’t care what he is moved for.

Friedman is likely desperate for news himself and just piggy-backing off of SanFillipo's "report."

People forget all of the baseless speculation that never comes to fruition from guys like Friedman just because they get fed breaking news on deadline and free agency day.

 

[TCTC]

Why would the Flyers care if he asked for a trade?
It's not like he has options.

Patrick comes from a hockey family, he knows he needs to work his ass off this summer, come into camp in the best shape of his life, and show he's moved past the migraines - otherwise not only does he not have a future in Philly, he doesn't have a future anywhere in the NHL.

That's why I'm wondering why he would even think about asking for a trade. That shouldn't even be on his mind right now. His entire focus should be on preparing for next season. Next year is do or die for him and that won't change on a different team.

 

[wankstifier]

Which we'll then flip to Montreal for their 2023 7th.

I like your thinking, but this will make securing the 7th round more difficult. Chicago has two 7ths, so Philadelphia might consider adding a 2nd to tease both away.

 

[Striiker]

NHL trade deadline: Flyers acquire Nate Thompson in trade with Canadiens

 

[04hockey]

Yeah, it'll kill this team to use Patrick in the bottom six next year, because if J Cates or Ratcliffe or Willman are forced to start the season in the AHL, that will be a disaster, much the way Stewart's 160 minutes cost them a shot at the Cup.

Patrick will probably get a low cost one or two year "prove it" deal, he'll be told the organization has been patient, and they understand he's had bad luck, but he really needs to step it up because there's a flood of young forwards on the way and after 2021-22, there probably won't be an opportunity to give him PT if he doesn't elevate his game. Nothing personal, but they're not warehousing Foerster, Wisdom, Brink and JOB to keep him around indefinitely.

 

[04hockey]

"patty" the PUSS .....TIME WAITS FOR NO MAN

Patty, take your "show" some place else .....bye

 

[BernieParent]

I don't think Patrick should be immune to fan criticism and expressions of frustration. If people believe the rumors that he wants out of Philly, and interpret his hiring of a new agent, and the agent's response to questions about requesting a trade, as supporting those rumors, then it's only natural that some fans are going to vent. That's 90% of what message boards are.

If someone wants to believe that the Flyers weren't patient with Patrick, forced him to return earlier than he felt able, and caused a rift, that's their prerogative. I would respond by saying that is complete conjecture, which doesn't necessarily make it untrue; but there have been no reports indicating that is the case, unlike the circumstantial evidence indicating that Patrick would like out of Philly (hiring of a new agent; agent's cryptic quotes re: requesting a trade; media rumors that he wants out).

Interviews may not say anything on their own about the inner competitiveness of a player, but combined with low-motor on-ice play, an entire missed season, and rumors of a questionable work ethic dating back to his junior days, those interviews sure don't disabuse any notions that he's not a particularly passionate hockey player.

Thanks, as always, for your reply, GB. Like any other professional athlete, Patrick shouldn't be immune from criticism, but it should be about what he actually has or hasn't done/said. At present, rumour, gossip, and biased interpretation are propping up a weak narrative as truth and running on that basis through the tar-and-feather brigade. Nothing like raining speculative brimstone down on a young player who had to work through a debilitating condition, losing a season of development in the process.

Media rumours are not self-supporting evidence. "Where there's smoke there's fire" holds no value if the smoke is coming out of the rear ends of individuals who benefit from controversy.

I am curious why you include "an entire missed season" as part of your portrait of Patrick not being passionate. Do you consider this time off as a negative to his character?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Why would the Flyers care if he asked for a trade?
It's not like he has options.

Patrick comes from a hockey family, he knows he needs to work his ass off this summer, come into camp in the best shape of his life, and show he's moved past the migraines - otherwise not only does he not have a future in Philly, he doesn't have a future anywhere in the NHL.

Maybe they don't care. But he sure seems like one of those players who is a constant headache (no pun intended) for management and staff. There's always some kind of problem. Eventually you get sick of the distraction, especially if the player is unreliable and isn't playing well.

 

[TCTC]

Maybe they don't care. But he sure seems like one of those players who is a constant headache (no pun intended) for management and staff. There's always some kind of problem. Eventually you get sick of the distraction, especially if the player is unreliable and isn't playing well.

I think if he was a late round pick, he'd be gone already. But when you invest a 2nd overall pick in a player, you are more desperate to make it work.
I don't think he's a hopeless case yet like Yakupov, but you can't be patient forever.

 

[bennysflyers16]

RFA that has no power wants out, oh no !! Only shitty thing about this is a 2 ov hasn't been anywhere close to what we hoped for.

Couts, Marmaduke, Frost, Laughton, Tanner,

Is there even any spot left for Patrick at center anymore on the Flyers ? It makes complete sense that he would want a fresh start.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Thanks, as always, for your reply, GB. Like any other professional athlete, Patrick shouldn't be immune from criticism, but it should be about what he actually has or hasn't done/said. At present, rumour, gossip, and biased interpretation are propping up a weak narrative as truth and running on that basis through the tar-and-feather brigade. Nothing like raining speculative brimstone down on a young player who had to work through a debilitating condition, losing a season of development in the process.

Media rumours are not self-supporting evidence. "Where there's smoke there's fire" holds no value if the smoke is coming out of the rear ends of individuals who benefit from controversy.

I am curious why you include "an entire missed season" as part of your portrait of Patrick not being passionate. Do you consider this time off as a negative to his character?

But it's not simply media rumors. It's also that he's already on his third agent, and this new agent didn't deny that he'd be asking for a trade. He rather conspicuously dodged the question.

I include "an entire missed season" as part of my portrait of Patrick's lack of passion because it is congruent with the lack of passion he's exhibited on the ice and in interviews. If Patrick were known for passionate play, then the missed season would seem like an outlier. Instead, it seems completely fitting for his personality. I'm not questioning his medical diagnosis; I'm certainly no doctor and I don't know the details, regardless. I just know that it always seems like there's some kind of issue with this guy, apparently dating back to his junior days, and the missed season doesn't do anything to change my feeling that he's not the most motivated, passionate hockey player, even if it isn't his fault.