2021 NHL Draft (new season tank edition)

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TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
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If anything they got younger this year the moment Jumbo signed in TO. Dude... who's old on this team now? Burns (stud), Vlasic (ick) and Patty (4th liner)? Oh Dubnyk (jury's out). Other than that the next tier of "old" players are what 30 and 31? that ain't old, even in hockey. Most of the rest of the players are going to be 25 and younger. This team ain't old. They used to average like 30 years old, I bet it's closer to 29 next season and that's only because they have 41 year old on the team who's not all that important to the success of the team. Take out that one player and I bet it's more in the 27, 28 range.

Hockey players peak around ages 22-26. Most of our core is around or older than 30 which absolutely is old in hockey. This is absolutely an old team and that is true even if you take out Marleau.

You're being extremely overconfident in and frankly unreasonable about this team.
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
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Hockey players peak around ages 22-26. Most of our core is around or older than 30 which absolutely is old in hockey. This is absolutely an old team and that is true even if you take out Marleau.

You're being extremely overconfident in and frankly unreasonable about this team.

1998-99 29.17
2012-13 29.23

The oldest 2 teams in sharks history.

Youngest team was 26.09 in 1993-94.

They have for the most part averaged 28 years old since thornton joined the team in 2005. That year was one of the youngest teams in sharks history at 26.75 years.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
1998-99 29.17
2012-13 29.23

The oldest 2 teams in sharks history.

Youngest team was 26.09 in 1993-94.

They have for the most part averaged 28 years old since thornton joined the team in 2005. That year was one of the youngest teams in sharks history at 26.75 years.

I don't see what this has to do with today's Sharks team also being old.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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Sep 28, 2017
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Hockey players peak around ages 22-26. Most of our core is around or older than 30 which absolutely is old in hockey. This is absolutely an old team and that is true even if you take out Marleau.

You're being extremely overconfident in and frankly unreasonable about this team.
And you are being extremely overconfident that your view is correct and frankly unreasonable about the prospects for this team. To be clear, I'm not saying they are cup contender, just that they are a playoff team. We see it every year. A veteran team beats the young more "talented" team. How did the Avs do against the Stars? Tampa was a good example of your theory but even their "core" is outside of the range you defined and their MVP is 29. Also, look what happened to them last playoff. I've been watching this same story play out for almost 4 decades. I'll take a team where the core is playoff hardened 30 year olds every day over a team where the core is 22-26 year olds. Maturity matters. You don't think so when you're young. You only realize when you're a little older just how much, especially in competitive situations. Go watch old interviews with Gretky talking about when they lost to a playoff hardened veteran Isles team the first time. So now tell me who in the pacific other than Vegas is a realistic challenge for the Sharks if their core is healthy? I've said repeatedly it could all go off the rails of there are a bunch of injuries to the wrong guys but there is plenty to be optimistic about with this team.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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This year they are not old though if you want to go that route. They are the 8th youngest team as of this very moment.

And that number can get lower once some of the rookies get added to the roster.
Honestly I think they're a pretty great mix. A few mid 30s, a few 30ish, a few in the 26-28 range and the rest under 25.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
This year they are not old though if you want to go that route. They are the 8th youngest team as of this very moment.

And that number can get lower once some of the rookies get added to the roster.

Where do you see that they are the 8th youngest team?

And you are being extremely overconfident that your view is correct and frankly unreasonable about the prospects for this team. To be clear, I'm not saying they are cup contender, just that they are a playoff team. We see it every year. A veteran team beats the young more "talented" team. How did the Avs do against the Stars? Tampa was a good example of your theory but even their "core" is outside of the range you defined and their MVP is 29. Also, look what happened to them last playoff. I've been watching this same story play out for almost 4 decades. I'll take a team where the core is playoff hardened 30 year olds every day over a team where the core is 22-26 year olds. Maturity matters. You don't think so when you're young. You only realize when you're a little older just how much, especially in competitive situations. Go watch old interviews with Gretky talking about when they lost to a playoff hardened veteran Isles team the first time. So now tell me who in the pacific other than Vegas is a realistic challenge for the Sharks if their core is healthy? I've said repeatedly it could all go off the rails of there are a bunch of injuries to the wrong guys but there is plenty to be optimistic about with this team.

I would say that the 7 other teams in the Pacific Division, who all finished with a higher record than the San Jose Sharks last season, are a realistic challenge for the Sharks.
 
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Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
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Where do you see that they are the 8th youngest team?



I would say that the 7 other teams in the Pacific Division, who all finished with a higher record than the San Jose Sharks last season, are a realistic challenge for the Sharks.

14 oldest, apparently the site even though it was organized wasnt organized properly for all of them.

They have for the past like 5 years been in the top 10 (top 5) for oldest team. But this year they fell more towards middle of the pack.
 
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Karl Prime

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Feb 13, 2017
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Nobody expects this team to be a Cup contender, but they are certainly better than a bottom 5 team unless they get crap luck with injuries again and the goaltending doesn't improve. They are almost by definition middle of the pack because they are top heavy with EK, Burns, Hertl, Couture, Kane, and Meier and as of right now, can't expect too much scoring production out of the bottom 6 and there are big question marks with the D outside 88 and 65. But don't be surprised if things go much smoother, especially if Boughner and his staff can sort out the defensive structure and utilize EK better.
 

Doctor Soraluce

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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Where do you see that they are the 8th youngest team?



I would say that the 7 other teams in the Pacific Division, who all finished with a higher record than the San Jose Sharks last season, are a realistic challenge for the Sharks.
So youre going with trying to assert that this is the new normal. That this roster is a cellar dweller. Ok, good luck with that. :skeptic:
 

Doctor Soraluce

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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14 oldest, apparently the site even though it was organized wasnt organized properly for all of them.

They have for the past like 5 years been in the top 10 (top 5) for oldest team. But this year they fell more towards middle of the pack.
And when you remove Patty from that equation? Just out of curiosity how far that moves them in the ranking since under normal circumstances a team wouldn't bring back someone that old.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
14 oldest, apparently the site even though it was organized wasnt organized properly for all of them.

They have for the past like 5 years been in the top 10 (top 5) for oldest team. But this year they fell more towards middle of the pack.

What site are you using?

What their age was in prior years doesn't have anything to do with what it is this year. Them being an old team in years prior doesn't make them any less of an "old team" today than what they actually are.

So youre going with trying to assert that this is the new normal. That this roster is a cellar dweller. Ok, good luck with that. :skeptic:

Nope, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not a given that they're a playoff team and that they're far more likely to be a cellar dweller with a chance to win the draft lottery than they are to be winning the Stanley Cup.

Nobody expects this team to be a Cup contender, but they are certainly better than a bottom 5 team unless they get crap luck with injuries again and the goaltending doesn't improve. They are almost by definition middle of the pack because they are top heavy with EK, Burns, Hertl, Couture, Kane, and Meier and as of right now, can't expect too much scoring production out of the bottom 6 and there are big question marks with the D outside 88 and 65. But don't be surprised if things go much smoother, especially if Boughner and his staff can sort out the defensive structure and utilize EK better.

They were around the bottom-5 with stellar health before the injury bug hit. As for goaltending, what makes you convinced that it will improve? Dubnyk was worse than Dell last year.
 

Barrie22

Shark fan in hiding
Aug 11, 2009
24,928
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ontario
What site are you using?

What their age was in prior years doesn't have anything to do with what it is this year. Them being an old team in years prior doesn't make them any less of an "old team" today than what they actually are.



Nope, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not a given that they're a playoff team and that they're far more likely to be a cellar dweller with a chance to win the draft lottery than they are to be winning the Stanley Cup.



They were around the bottom-5 with stellar health before the injury bug hit. As for goaltending, what makes you convinced that it will improve? Dubnyk was worse than Dell last year.

Elite Prospects - Average physical stats for San Jose Sharks

Elite Prospects - Team Comparison in NHL
 
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Doctor Soraluce

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
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What site are you using?

What their age was in prior years doesn't have anything to do with what it is this year. Them being an old team in years prior doesn't make them any less of an "old team" today than what they actually are.



Nope, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not a given that they're a playoff team and that they're far more likely to be a cellar dweller with a chance to win the draft lottery than they are to be winning the Stanley Cup.



They were around the bottom-5 with stellar health before the injury bug hit. As for goaltending, what makes you convinced that it will improve? Dubnyk was worse than Dell last year.
Considering we're months from the start of the season and no one has any idea what any of the prospects look like right now, let alone vets who were injured, relegating them to the draft lottery is just ridiculous. Considering parity of the league it's equally plausible that the stay healthy and the new system works and the goalies find their games. Almost the same amount of things have to go wrong for them to be a lottery team as have to go right for them to be a cup team.

So now you're ignoring the coaching & system change and the time off for two over the most over played goalies in the NHL over the last few years? Ok...
 

Karl Prime

Registered User
Feb 13, 2017
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They were around the bottom-5 with stellar health before the injury bug hit. As for goaltending, what makes you convinced that it will improve? Dubnyk was worse than Dell last year.

Yeah, they sucked last year under DeBoer. I don't think they're anywhere near as bad as that with a few tweaks made in the way they play and the core guys collectively playing better. As for goaltending, Dubnyk was better the year before - there's a chance he bounces back just like there's one that he sucks again. Jones' improvement will be dependent on what changes Nabokov can make with him and if the team can give up less grade A scoring chances (though he'd still have to allow waaay fewer backbreaking non scoring chance goals).

I'm sure I'm not alone in being anxious for the season to start so we can stop talking about how things might go and actually see how they will.
 

hohosaregood

Banned
Sep 1, 2011
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See, I would say you're a fool if you think a team that finished 3rd worst in the league, then got worse, will finish better than 3rd worst this coming season.
 

seroes

Registered User
May 3, 2016
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See, I would say you're a fool if you think a team that finished 3rd worst in the league, then got worse, will finish better than 3rd worst this coming season.
Not sure i would say we are worse. Donato makes our forwards better and I would say our Defense and goaltending are worse. However our stars should have better years which should at least get us out of the basement but probably won't get us into the playoffs.
 

DG93

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
4,371
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San Jose
And you are being extremely overconfident that your view is correct and frankly unreasonable about the prospects for this team. To be clear, I'm not saying they are cup contender, just that they are a playoff team. We see it every year. A veteran team beats the young more "talented" team. How did the Avs do against the Stars? Tampa was a good example of your theory but even their "core" is outside of the range you defined and their MVP is 29. Also, look what happened to them last playoff. I've been watching this same story play out for almost 4 decades. I'll take a team where the core is playoff hardened 30 year olds every day over a team where the core is 22-26 year olds. Maturity matters. You don't think so when you're young. You only realize when you're a little older just how much, especially in competitive situations. Go watch old interviews with Gretky talking about when they lost to a playoff hardened veteran Isles team the first time. So now tell me who in the pacific other than Vegas is a realistic challenge for the Sharks if their core is healthy? I've said repeatedly it could all go off the rails of there are a bunch of injuries to the wrong guys but there is plenty to be optimistic about with this team.

While I'm cautiously optimistic about this season not being a complete tire fire, I do think you're a little overconfident. Anyway, what I want to comment on is the Avs part...them losing Grubauer was huge since they didn't have a backup like Khudobin. Losing Landeskog didn't help either.
 
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Doctor Soraluce

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While I'm cautiously optimistic about this season not being a complete tire fire, I do think you're a little overconfident. Anyway, what I want to comment on is the Avs part...them losing Grubauer was huge since they didn't have a backup like Khudobin. Losing Landeskog didn't help either.
You're mistaking optimism with overconfidence. I hope they make the playoffs and I believe they have the talent and players in the right positions to achieve that. Overconfident says I know they will. I've said over and over injuries or more of the same goaltending will derail this into the trash. My comments haven't changed on this over the last few weeks. I believe they're due some luck in the injury dept after enduring major injuries to important players every season for the last 4(?) seasons. I also honestly think it's good jumbo is gone just so the locker room can move on and find their own identity now. No one has daddy looking over their shoulder anymore.

About the Avs & Stars... Both teams lost their starting goalies, right? Avs had 2 of the best young players in the league in their top 6. Stars had a bunch of old dudes mixed with a couple young players. 4 of the top 7 point producing forwards were over 30. another was 28. They did have a couple of young studs on D but like I said, it's a mix. Goalie who took Stars to the finals is the same age as Dubnyk. Khudobins stats in the regular season were worse than Jones and similar to Dubnyk. He just got hot in the playoffs.

So yeah, happens all the time. That is exactly the type of situation that makes me optimistic. Sharks have 2 #1 veteran offensive d-men, 2 centers who've proven they can produce in the clutch and put up good numbers in the regular season when healthy, 2 power wingers both capable of putting in 30 goals, one of which we don't really know where his ceiling is. Meier, IMO, is a work in progress and he may very well turn into a 70+ point winger. A shit ton of bottom and potentially middle 6 depth depending on the development of all these prospects and euro signings. The goaltending is a mystery somewhat but one guy has proven he raises his game in the playoffs and the other has been incredibly consistent at producing 9.13 svp and 2.5 gaa or better other than last season where his freaking wife apparently almost died. A new coaching staff with a new system that will actually give a shit what happens in the defensive zone, an extended training camp (very valuable), and a team embarrassed by last season that will show up motivated to not let that shit happen again. That's a whole lot of reasons for optimism.
 

DG93

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
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San Jose
About the Avs & Stars... Both teams lost their starting goalies, right? Avs had 2 of the best young players in the league in their top 6. Stars had a bunch of old dudes mixed with a couple young players. 4 of the top 7 point producing forwards were over 30. another was 28. They did have a couple of young studs on D but like I said, it's a mix. Goalie who took Stars to the finals is the same age as Dubnyk. Khudobins stats in the regular season were worse than Jones and similar to Dubnyk. He just got hot in the playoffs.

So yeah, happens all the time. That is exactly the type of situation that makes me optimistic. Sharks have 2 #1 veteran offensive d-men, 2 centers who've proven they can produce in the clutch and put up good numbers in the regular season when healthy, 2 power wingers both capable of putting in 30 goals, one of which we don't really know where his ceiling is. Meier, IMO, is a work in progress and he may very well turn into a 70+ point winger. A shit ton of bottom and potentially middle 6 depth depending on the development of all these prospects and euro signings. The goaltending is a mystery somewhat but one guy has proven he raises his game in the playoffs and the other has been incredibly consistent at producing 9.13 svp and 2.5 gaa or better other than last season where his freaking wife apparently almost died. A new coaching staff with a new system that will actually give a shit what happens in the defensive zone, an extended training camp (very valuable), and a team embarrassed by last season that will show up motivated to not let that shit happen again. That's a whole lot of reasons for optimism.

To address a few things: again, you can't really compare Grubauer and Bishop going down because one team had Khudobin and the other had a bagel. In terms of the Sharks' prospects, a lot of those evals and projections are quite generous, but fine, I'll give you that. Regarding Dubnyk, those #s don't paint the whole picture...he put up those average #s behind one of the best defenses in the NHL and the adjusted #s look a whole lot worse the past 3 seasons other than this last one. I'll admit that last season shouldn't really count given his wife's illness.
 

Doctor Soraluce

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Sep 28, 2017
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To address a few things: again, you can't really compare Grubauer and Bishop going down because one team had Khudobin and the other had a bagel. In terms of the Sharks' prospects, a lot of those evals and projections are quite generous, but fine, I'll give you that. Regarding Dubnyk, those #s don't paint the whole picture...he put up those average #s behind one of the best defenses in the NHL and the adjusted #s look a whole lot worse the past 3 seasons other than this last one. I'll admit that last season shouldn't really count given his wife's illness.
Obviously the guys who are paid to evaluate these things think he's worth the risk. I guess we're going to find out if Nabby is a great coach or delusional. :)
 
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