NHL Entry Draft 2020 NHL Draft Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sweatred

Erase me
Jan 28, 2019
13,408
3,324
It's pretty absurd to compare a team dead last in the standings and a team that is in the playoff hunt choosing whether or not to risk losing pending UFA for nothing or trade them at the deadline. Apples vs oranges here. The goal of the league isn't to maximize returns on assets, it's to win, Toronto, Winnepeg, Clb, and even the NYI had weigh the pros and cons, there was a benefit to keeping those guys around for the extra 20ish days + playoffs, we did not, our fate was sealed and no benefit would come from us keeping them around once it was clear we couldn't re-sign them.

I’m not sure about “absurd”... clearly we had no need for the players down the stretch. There were probably about 20+ teams at the deadline in contention for a playoff spot and only one wins the cup - so automatically keeping and losing your FA’s probably isn’t the best path to win a cup either for some teams. Columbus went all in for nothing. Vegas at least resigned Stone. Winnipeg lost a lot and may have lost years of their contending window.

We haven’t really seen teams give away a UFA in contention for the sake of acquiring assets for future years. The sens have a hard time acquiring UFA’s which puts them at a disadvantage vs teams like Toronto that could let JVR walk while signing JT.

The sens need something to make up for the net talent loss they experience in UFA. It’s hasn’t come from drafting recently so it may need to come form shaving off decent players before they hit UFA.
 

Xspyrit

DJ Dorion
Jun 29, 2008
30,708
9,651
Montreal, Canada
There is still hope for the Ottawa side of the deal, but the fact is it depends almost entirely on how the draft picks turn out. Karlsson was a home-run pick, we would really need another one of those to balance it out, and that will be seen quite a ways in the future. Generally speaking I'm not disagreeing though, just that there's a lot of question marks still in play

Of course, there's still a lot of question marks, we're just 1 year after the trade, you need several years to normally know what is going to happen with a trade. Like with the Spezza and Heatley deals, immediate losses but as the time passed, it was less and less and in Heatley's case, it even became a win for Ottawa. In Spezza's case it remains a loss (because the pieces acquired didn't materialize much and we couldn't even do something good with the 2nd rounder acquired) but really not as big as it was stated here, as Spezza only had 2-3 good years left and then became a massive overpaid contract in his last 2 years.

The thing is people are judging deals at the time of the trade but are omitting the long-term effects. San Jose knew their core was aging and that their window was slowly going to close so they went all in and acquired Karlsson to get over the top. They made that deal without even knowing if Karlsson would extend with them. Thankfully he did but if they still have to rebuild right away, then it will have been very costly... Just their first round pick in one of the best drafts ever is a heavy price and if that pick lands in the top-10, then it's almost a disaster. On top of that, they gave 2 of their best prospects in Norris and Balcers, two 2nd round picks (both will/should be in the first half of the 2nd round) and 2 cheap young support/depth players.

That's a heck of a price to pay for what could have been just a rental, no matter how good he is. Now they re-signed him but the thing is EK is going to be 30 y/o at the end of this season and has suffered some significant injuries in his career. The league is getting younger and faster every year so it's going to get harder and harder for EK to dominate. I'm hoping he can remain one of the best players for a long time but chances are he won't sniff a Norris ever again. Jury is still out how long he is going to get Norris votes. With a 11.5 cap hit, he could unfortunately land in the overpaid NHL contracts in a not so distant future.

I'm really hoping he regains his form because even if he's gone, he's still one of my favorite players but no matter what, Ottawa will have done pretty good in that trade considering the circumstances that the owner has put them in, forcing a firesale (financial rebuild). Finally, even if he becomes overpaid, a player like Erik Karlsson should have been a Senators for life but that boat has sailed with Melnyk
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Cosmix

Rodzilla

Registered User
Aug 31, 2010
10,903
3,300
Canada
The sharks arent 'really bad' lol. I get the optimism in hoping the sens get a second shot at the lottery however this is not an accurate take. They are going to be a playoff team.

I disagree man,

I might be wrong, we'll see, but they lost Pavelski, keep hanging on to Jumbo even though he's 3 steps behind every play, they have Mier, Couture, Labanc is struggling, Kane is always up and down in his career and is tied up at a high $, they have Hertl but then meh... I dont see much depth up front. Then on defense they have 2 great dmens in Burns and Karlsson but both cost on defense, Vlasic aging. In nets they're bad. I disagree man, I dont see this team doing good. Might not be an accurate take to you, we'll see.
 
  • Like
Reactions: OD99

OD99

Registered User
Oct 13, 2012
4,869
3,976
I disagree man,

I might be wrong, we'll see, but they lost Pavelski, keep hanging on to Jumbo even though he's 3 steps behind every play, they have Mier, Couture, Labanc is struggling, Kane is always up and down in his career and is tied up at a high $, they have Hertl but then meh... I dont see much depth up front. Then on defense they have 2 great dmens in Burns and Karlsson but both cost on defense, Vlasic aging. In nets they're bad. I disagree man, I dont see this team doing good. Might not be an accurate take to you, we'll see.

I agree with pretty much everything here and will add I expect a decent improvement from the Canucks, Oilers and Ducks. Heck even the Coyotes should be better.

Obviously bottoming out is improbable but missing the playoffs? That is almost an even proposition to me.

Like everyone I am rooting for the elusive 1st & 2nd pick combo but anything in the lottery has to feel like a huge win.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Walter White

bert

Registered User
Nov 11, 2002
35,984
21,919
Visit site
I disagree man,

I might be wrong, we'll see, but they lost Pavelski, keep hanging on to Jumbo even though he's 3 steps behind every play, they have Mier, Couture, Labanc is struggling, Kane is always up and down in his career and is tied up at a high $, they have Hertl but then meh... I dont see much depth up front. Then on defense they have 2 great dmens in Burns and Karlsson but both cost on defense, Vlasic aging. In nets they're bad. I disagree man, I dont see this team doing good. Might not be an accurate take to you, we'll see.
They lost in game 7 of the western conference final. They didnt just forget how to play hockey, they have multiple hall of famers are deep in every position. All they lost is Pavelsk, they draft very well and have a really strong leadership group. They also have a core of really good young players that are going to continue to improve. Its not about opinions these are facts. Its 5 games into the season and they are a veteran team, there is a reason teams play 82 games.

Just because you dont know who the players on their team are doesnt mean they dont have depth.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Walter White

Burrowsaurus

Registered User
Mar 20, 2013
42,066
15,799
Better return than Duchene. The first is Heinola, it really wasnt that bad at all condidering who they drafted.
how is that a better return than Duchene?

a defenseman that not many rangers fans really likes and a mid to late first...

we got two legit prospects both of whom will be in the NHL at some point and the pick right before them
 

bert

Registered User
Nov 11, 2002
35,984
21,919
Visit site
how is that a better return than Duchene?

a defenseman that not many rangers fans really likes and a mid to late first...

we got two legit prospects both of whom will be in the NHL at some point and the pick right before them
Pionk is a way batter asset than Davidsson, not close he is a top 4 d man. Heinola is playing top 4 minutes in the NHL right now and looks like an absolute steal. Its a better return, the sens should have went BPA they drafted for position Heinola is the better player and prospect. He was going into the draft and has proven so far he is the better player.
 

TkachukNorris79

Registered User
Jan 27, 2018
1,485
1,358
Pionk is a way batter asset than Davidsson, not close he is a top 4 d man. Heinola is playing top 4 minutes in the NHL right now and looks like an absolute steal. Its a better return, the sens should have went BPA they drafted for position Heinola is the better player and prospect. He was going into the draft and has proven so far he is the better player.
Heinola and Lassi have similar value. Maybe give Heinola a slight edge for playing in the NHL (although I genuinely believe Lassi could play in the NHL right now as well). But Lassi is also a RHD and let's not pretend that means nothing.

Also, Abramov+Davidsson >> Pionk in my eyes
 

bert

Registered User
Nov 11, 2002
35,984
21,919
Visit site
Heinola and Lassi have similar value. Maybe give Heinola a slight edge for playing in the NHL (although I genuinely believe Lassi could play in the NHL right now as well). But Lassi is also a RHD and let's not pretend that means nothing.

Also, Abramov+Davidsson >> Pionk in my eyes
Heinola was rated way higher going into the draft. Had two incredible seasons in the finish elite league with better numbers than Heiskanen. The sens reached on Thomson, I am not saying he wont turn out but its pretty obvious Heinola is looking like the steal of the draft.

Ill take the proven NHL d man over Abramov and Davidsson. Davidsson is on the 4th line in the AHL, I dont think he is a factor. Abramov has a long way to go to be as valuable an asset as Pionk.
 

Burrowsaurus

Registered User
Mar 20, 2013
42,066
15,799
Pionk is a way batter asset than Davidsson, not close he is a top 4 d man. Heinola is playing top 4 minutes in the NHL right now and looks like an absolute steal. Its a better return, the sens should have went BPA they drafted for position Heinola is the better player and prospect. He was going into the draft and has proven so far he is the better player.
Thompson and heinola play the same position.
 

Alf Silfversson

Registered User
Jun 8, 2011
5,717
4,744
Better return than Duchene. The first is Heinola, it really wasnt that bad at all condidering who they drafted.

I know our management/owner has been pretty terrible but there is no need for unnecessary hyperbole. That package for Trouba was not good. The Duchene deal is much better. You can argue Heinola vs. Thomson all you want but it should be done about 5 years from now. The picks were one after the other. At the time of the deal they have equal value.

Pionk is MAYBE a Demelo level D-man. Abramov and Davidsson (who will be an NHL player) are much better value. Especially for a rebuilding team, given their ceilings.

And even if one were to concede that the Trouba deal was more valuable, shouldn't it have been? He's a #1 D or at least a high end #2 who is 24 years old and not an upcoming UFA. I'd argue he should hold more value that Duchene.

We don't need to go out of our way to make our front office look bad. They'll take care of that themselves.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

Don't Hold The Door
Mar 16, 2009
31,084
7,399
Ottawa
I know our management/owner has been pretty terrible but there is no need for unnecessary hyperbole. That package for Trouba was not good. The Duchene deal is much better. You can argue Heinola vs. Thomson all you want but it should be done about 5 years from now. The picks were one after the other. At the time of the deal they have equal value.

Pionk is MAYBE a Demelo level D-man. Abramov and Davidsson (who will be an NHL player) are much better value. Especially for a rebuilding team, given their ceilings.

And even if one were to concede that the Trouba deal was more valuable, shouldn't it have been? He's a #1 D or at least a high end #2 who is 24 years old and not an upcoming UFA. I'd argue he should hold more value that Duchene.

We don't need to go out of our way to make our front office look bad. They'll take care of that themselves.
Pionk is way better than Demelo. Like orders of magnitude better. Demelo is barely a NHL dman. Pionk is a pretty productive player. He might be our #2 or 3 if in Ottawa.
 

Viletho

Registered User
Jan 20, 2015
3,863
1,327
Pionk is way better than Demelo like orders of magnitude better. Demelo is barely a NHL dman. Pionk is a pretty productive player. He might be our #2 or 3 if in Ottawa.

I would probably in term of talent( which doesn't mean much since we are talking about the Sens ), but he wouldn't on paper. He hasn't played for Toronto. :sarcasm:
 

Alf Silfversson

Registered User
Jun 8, 2011
5,717
4,744
Pionk is way better than Demelo. Like orders of magnitude better. Demelo is barely a NHL dman. Pionk is a pretty productive player. He might be our #2 or 3 if in Ottawa.

you could make the argument that he's better (I doubt Rangers fans would though). But there is no way that he's THAT much better. He's a bit younger so maybe he gets there but as of now they are very similar calibre players.
 

TheDebater

Peace be upon you
Mar 10, 2016
6,251
6,000
Ottawa
Pionk is a way batter asset than Davidsson, not close he is a top 4 d man. Heinola is playing top 4 minutes in the NHL right now and looks like an absolute steal. Its a better return, the sens should have went BPA they drafted for position Heinola is the better player and prospect. He was going into the draft and has proven so far he is the better player.

I think you need to re-assess your vocabulary as you are confusing "better return" with "drafting the better player". In no world, surely not on earth, is Pionk plus the 18th overall, a better "return" than Abramov, Davidsson and the 17th overall pick. If you would like to argue the point that Heinola is a better prospect than Thomson, then by all means, if that is your opinion feel free to express it you might even be right at some point in the future.

However there is a big difference between the "return in a trade" and the "outcome of a trade". For example, Team #1 can trade player A for a 1st round pick, and Team #2 could trade player Z for a 4th round pick. The better return is clearly for Team #1 but, yes, Team #2 might end up drafting a better player with the 4th round pick.
 

Rodzilla

Registered User
Aug 31, 2010
10,903
3,300
Canada
They lost in game 7 of the western conference final. They didnt just forget how to play hockey, they have multiple hall of famers are deep in every position. All they lost is Pavelsk, they draft very well and have a really strong leadership group. They also have a core of really good young players that are going to continue to improve. Its not about opinions these are facts. Its 5 games into the season and they are a veteran team, there is a reason teams play 82 games.

Just because you dont know who the players on their team are doesnt mean they dont have depth.

lol are you arrogant in every one of your replies? I watch all of their games with game center live, Karlsson is my favorite player. im a hockey nerd and you on the internet come to the conclusion that because we have a different opinion I dont know their players? They look like us with Karlsson, Stone Duchene and co.

Who am I missing? Yurtakin who came over from the KHL where he had under average stats? Gambrell? Bergmann who had garb stats everywhere from USHL or in the german league? Goodrow with his career high 16 pts? Feraro who had average stats at UMass with a 14pts and +6 rating? Tell me what am I missing? Suomela? Chmelevski? Come on sir, if we’re talking about this year that depth isnt special. They have decent prospects, nothing crazy aside from Merkley... Blichfield ? Chekhovich isnt bad saw him in the Q. Dell in nets? Jones? Lol

i see them battling for the playoffs, they arent a contender at all. Reality is they prolly wont be a top 5 pick but one can hope

Agree to disagree now get off your high horse
 
Last edited:

Alf Silfversson

Registered User
Jun 8, 2011
5,717
4,744
A quick glance at their numbers says otherwise. The eye test also paints a very different picture. Demelo is in constant survival mode. Pionk is good with the puck on his stick and creates offensively. He's just far and away the better player.

Their numbers? Pionk has been consistently caved in every year he's played, possession wise. And his 5-on-5 scoring numbers last year are weaker than DeMelo's, whose scoring comes almost exclusively at 5-on-5. Demelo is consistently above average possession wise. If there is a statistical favourite I'd say it's actually Demelo. They're both just serviceable D-men who are pretty easily replaced though.

Now if you want to say you prefer Pionk, that's fine but to hint that he's leagues better than DD is hyperbole at best.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->