2020 F1 - Part II

[SoupyFIN]

Idk why people are surprised Bottas was so bad today, he's never been good in the rain.

(although I remember watching a GP3 race back in the day, where he stormed through the field to win in heavy rain conditions, think it was on Nurburgring)

 

[Ceremony]

Can't argue with Hamilton's performance in conditions like that. Stroll GP f***ed it and Verstappen has to learn from experiences like this one.

 

[Kiwi]

It was an excellent drive, and he has shown over his career he is incredibly consistent. However this is the reason I take issue with the argument that he's the GOAT. Similarly to many of his wins he didn't really have to do anything special to pull this off, that would justify putting him in that discussion.

He drives in a car and an era where all that is required of him is simply to turn up and not be shit. He doesn't win these races, the other drivers lose them. I have sympathy for Verstappen because I think he does really have to fight that car, if he was in the Merc it might be a different story. Bottas has those spins because he's just... bad.

There's a lot to be said for a favorite showing up every day and performing like they are superior to everybody else

That's what makes somebody great imo, winning when your expected to win and giving your opponent nothing

I'm no Hamilton fan but he's got one hell of an argument he's the greatest F1 driver in history

 

[Siamese Dream]

It's all hypothetical of course because you can only race who is there with you and there's no way to tell how he'd manage in similar circumstances but I just don't buy it based on accolades alone. I believe the same applies to Schumacher. Imagine if Senna had driven in an era when there was no Prost or Mansell for example.

The great champions of the past had to actually battle other great drivers in other competitive cars throughout their careers.

When Ferrari actually had a competitive car and he was up against Vettel in the first half of 2017 and 2018 he seemed to lose his head and mail it in, and appeared completely disinterested until Mercedes made the car better and either Ferrari strategists would screw something up or Vettel bottled it. And this was a Vettel clearly past his prime.

 

[Khelandros]

I don't think Verstappen fights his car. I think he is like that kid in high school whos dad got him a sports car for his 18th birthday and all he wants to do is go fast. Max doesn't have the patience or really the mental fortitude to be challenging for world titles. He just wants to get in front of everyone and go. Watching the race it wasn't a matter of if Max would mess up and spin but when. You could just see it coming when he was chasing Perez. No patience, no planning, no mental capacity to wait for Perez to make a mistake. I think this is why Max has so many of these stupid moments.

 

[Paris in Flames]

Stroll had an amazing 35 laps. I'll give him that.

But that last half of the race...oof.

(I do think that's more on strategy, tires and the conditions changing to ones less favourable for him...but still...oof).

 

[JoVel]

Just a reminder to everyone that we could witness the last three races of the Mercedes era if not for some random bat. Instead we get another year. Hope that made your day a little bit better.

 

[Albatros]

I don't think Verstappen fights his car. I think he is like that kid in high school whos dad got him a sports car for his 18th birthday and all he wants to do is go fast. Max doesn't have the patience or really the mental fortitude to be challenging for world titles. He just wants to get in front of everyone and go. Watching the race it wasn't a matter of if Max would mess up and spin but when. You could just see it coming when he was chasing Perez. No patience, no planning, no mental capacity to wait for Perez to make a mistake. I think this is why Max has so many of these stupid moments.

Patience doesn't bring nine podiums with a mediocre car though.

 

[Albatros]

It's all hypothetical of course because you can only race who is there with you and there's no way to tell how he'd manage in similar circumstances but I just don't buy it based on accolades alone. I believe the same applies to Schumacher. Imagine if Senna had driven in an era when there was no Prost or Mansell for example.

The great champions of the past had to actually battle other great drivers in other competitive cars throughout their careers.

Schumacher won his first titles with a nearly undriveable car though.

 

[Siamese Dream]

Schumacher won his first titles with a nearly undriveable car though.

I mean his later titles with Ferrari. Hamilton himself won his first title in an actually competitive year of course.

For most of Schumacher's titles in the 2000s he was miles ahead of everyone, the competition wasn't great.

This is why I struggle to justify arguing based mostly on titles and win records

 

[SoupyFIN]

Stroll had an amazing 35 laps. I'll give him that.

But that last half of the race...oof.

(I do think that's more on strategy, tires and the conditions changing to ones less favourable for him...but still...oof).

His tyres were probably done though, they showed Perez onboard the lap Stroll pitted and he was drifting through every corner.

It's hard to blame strategy when Perez drove almost 50 laps on the same set, that's on tyre management.

Schumacher won his first titles with a nearly undriveable car though.

Undriveable when Benetton had traction control and the competition didn't? Right..

Without going into the other shady shit they did during those years, like increasing the fuel flow during pitstops.

 

[Albatros]

Schumacher's teammates collected 46 points with those cars. In two seasons combined.

 

[MXD]

Bottas picked damage at the very beginning.

 

[JoVel]

Bottas picked damage at the very beginning.

As a result of dive bombing Ocon and taking him out. Whatever damage he had it was his own doing.

 

[MXD]

As a result of dive bombing Ocon and taking him out. Whatever damage he had it was his own doing.

...eh. That's a very severe reading of the incident.

 

[JoVel]

...eh. That's a very severe reading of the incident.

I assume you're talking turn 1? Bottas and Ocon had another incident later in lap 1, which is where I guess he got the damage from.

 

[MXD]

I assume you're talking turn 1? Bottas and Ocon had another incident later in lap 1, which is where I guess he got the damage from.

Fair enough - I was referring at turn 1 incident. Didn't exactly see the incident you're talking about.

 

[JoVel]

Fair enough - I was referring at turn 1 incident. Didn't exactly see the incident you're talking about.

 

[MXD]

Already blocked by FOM.

 

[MXD]

Schumacher won his first titles with a nearly undriveable car though.

A better word could've been chosen to describe the only car with an (illegal) traction control system on the grid.

 

[Albatros]

Allegations that were never proven despite repetitive investigations. According to Verstappen Sr.:

"It was a very difficult car. You could not feel the limit and so you were pushing and pushing and then suddenly it would have oversteer. Normally when you get oversteer you can control it but the Benetton would go very suddenly and so you ended up having a spin. I had big problems with that car."

 

[MXD]

Allegations that were never proven despite repetitive investigations. According to Verstappen Sr.:

"It was a very difficult car. You could not feel the limit and so you were pushing and pushing and then suddenly it would have oversteer. Normally when you get oversteer you can control it but the Benetton would go very suddenly and so you ended up having a spin. I had big problems with that car."

It's like you tried really, really hard to come up with the least credible opinion on the matter.

 

[JoVel]

Benetton not being proved to use traction control is similar to Ferrari not using illegal engines last year.

 

[SoupyFIN]

Allegations that were never proven despite repetitive investigations. According to Verstappen Sr.:

"It was a very difficult car. You could not feel the limit and so you were pushing and pushing and then suddenly it would have oversteer. Normally when you get oversteer you can control it but the Benetton would go very suddenly and so you ended up having a spin. I had big problems with that car."

Having TC doesn't make your car invincible to oversteer though, it just means the other drivers weren't able to succeed despite of it. Although I would put more blame on Briatore for applying pressure, rather than Herbert/Verstappen/Lehto etc. being able to drive. Briatore was basically Helmut Marko of the 1990s and early 2000s, throwing number 2 drivers under the bus the first chance he got.

TC doesn't automatically make you the greatest driver ever (for the record, I'm not disputing MSC's records, he was a great driver, but that doesn't take away from the fact that Benetton cheated during his early years), but when the greatest pure "feel the track" driver is listening track side and saying that car is running TC, there's at least in my opinion no way to refute it.

Also the allegations were never proven, because they didn't have the technology at the time to prove it on track.

 

[Khelandros]

Allegations that were never proven despite repetitive investigations. According to Verstappen Sr.:

"It was a very difficult car. You could not feel the limit and so you were pushing and pushing and then suddenly it would have oversteer. Normally when you get oversteer you can control it but the Benetton would go very suddenly and so you ended up having a spin. I had big problems with that car."

Not very good driver has trouble controlling fast racing car, story at 11.

STATISTICS

Wins:	0 (0%)
Podiums:	2 (1.9%)
Pole positions:	0 (0%)
Championships:	0 (0%)
Best result:	3rd
Best grid position:	6th (1994 Belgian Grand Prix)
Seasons:	8
Events:	107
Starts:	107
Points:	17 (0.2 points per race avg)
Laps raced:	3987
Laps led:	0 ) (0%)
Fastest laps:	0 (0%)
Retirements:	58 (54.2%)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]