2020 Draft - Pick #187 - Kienan Draper

[Gniwder]

Have you ever seen Draper play before?

Obviously not, I already mentioned he has no highlight videos. I have watched HS hockey though, and anyone with speed dominates the game.

I do believe that Hakan would have picked a more interesting player though.

Do you believe that some other team would have picked Kienan, an unranked HS player with less than impressive stats and no highlight videos?

 

[Frk It]

Obviously not, I already mentioned he has no highlight videos. I have watched HS hockey though, and anyone with speed dominates the game.

I do believe that Hakan would have picked a more interesting player though.

Do you believe that some other team would have picked Kienan, an unranked HS player with less than impressive stats and no highlight videos?

He had a profile in The Black Book by hockeyprospect.com, just like his teammate did. They are one of the better scoring services out there. So no, I don’t think it was totally out of left field and some ridiculous thing that even warrants half the attention it’s gotten. I don’t know if someone else would have taken him, maybe. Pretty much anyone taken in round 7 could have went undrafted.

I have never seen Aucoin, Stange, or Draper player. While I would have preferred other players, I can’t sit here and say those are a waste of a pick when I’ve never seen them.

 

[Gniwder]

I’m sure Draper would have loved taking Perfetti because they had such a good relationship with him... but if he really felt stifled, he wouldn’t be doing the picks and you’d hear something because Draper isn’t the type to be cowed, even by Stevie who he has loyalty to

I see it as the complete opposite, Stevie picked Draper because it gives him more control. There's not another team in the league that will hire Draper to head the scouting department, he doesn't have a proven track record. If Stevie says Raymond, what is Draper going to do? Find a new job somewhere? Name one team that would hire him as Head of Scouting.....

 

[kliq]

I see it as the complete opposite, Stevie picked Draper because it gives him more control. There's not another team in the league that will hire Draper to head the scouting department, he doesn't have a proven track record. If Stevie says Raymond, what is Draper going to do? Find a new job somewhere? Name one team that would hire him as Head of Scouting.....

Edmonton?

 

[MBH]

I just don’t see how anyone gets this worked up about a 7th round pick.

Who cares if the teammate has double the points? Once you’re in the later rounds, teams generally look for one thing you do really well because by that time, literally every prospect has some kind of wart. So if Kienan Draper plays with more energy or truculence or has more speed or whatever... that’s a perfectly good reason to take him over Shooty McJones who can score points in junior but might not project to do so in the National League.

Kienan Draper is a legitimate young hockey player, right? If his name wasn’t Kienan Draper would you have had a problem with the Wings taking a player with his profile?

You defend the pick while lecturing people about criticizing the pick.
I have some issues with quite a few of the late picks this year, given who was left on the board.
but Draper is catching it in this thread because if the nepotism angle.
And on the nepotism angle - this is a lot worse than "Tyler Bertuzzi," nephew of a player on your team.
This is the son of the guy who's at the head of the table on draft day.
This is Tyler Wright drafting his son.

Were I Stevie, I would have told these guys to pick someone else - anyone else.
NHL GMs have a habit of drafting sons of exNHLers anyways. Chance Draper might have gotten picked up by some other team.

 

[lilidk]

So much excitement about 7 rounder. And yes it was many good undrafted prospects. Can we sign one of those, if they are improve big time before next draft

 

[Frk It]

I, as a rational human being, can understand there were literally hundreds of other options and they settled on a guy with unremarkable scouting reports - but who was the son of the guy calling the shot.
I would have preferred Tag Bertuzzi, as a hockey player, and gone nepotism-lite instead of nepotism-deluxe and a guy with weak skating, low skill, etc.
Or Dmitri Rashevsky or Pavel Gogolev.
I had a couple guys who I think have a legit chance to be top 6/9 forwards.
I would have bet on skill.

A guy like Gogolev is making your top 6 or not making your team at all. You can’t only draft players like that, or you will have no depth. We have been taking guys like Phillips, Mastrosimone, Niederbach, Tyutyatev, Kivenmaki so I don’t see the issue with drafting guys who compete and bring other elements.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

So much excitement about 7 rounder. And yes it was many good undrafted prospects. Can we sign one of those, if they are improve big time before next draft

Normally you could sign CHLers up the beginning of your main training camp in September, I think Philly signed Myers to his ELC in the middle of September, but I'm not sure what the situation is like right now. I think we may be able to sign some of the DY+2 guys that haven't started playing yet, but the ship may have sailed. The Marlies signed Riley McCourt a week or so ago so maybe we could still sign some of the OHLers or WHLers that haven't returned to play yet?

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

A guy like Gogolev is making your top 6 or not making your team at all. You can’t only draft players like that, or you will have no depth. We have been taking guys like Phillips, Mastrosimone, Niederbach, Tyutyatev, Kivenmaki so I don’t see the issue with drafting guys who compete and bring other elements.

Why can't you draft like that? Teams like the Leafs, Lightning, Penguins, etc. have shown that you can sign cheap 3rd/4th liners every offseason. Why specifically target that sort of player in the draft if they're readily available in FA? Every season there's 4th liners like Vesey, Petan, Larsson, Clifford, and more that sign for sub 1.5M and sub 1M deals. If the best you can hope for is to get a player that is easily replicable why bother investing anything into that asset?

It makes far more sense to invest in the top 6 or bust players because they're not only more expensive to get from FA, but will provide surplus value should they make it to the NHL in their ELC and subsequent RFA seasons.

 

[ridilon]

Yes, Red Wings pick and sign players only because of their bloodlines. Draper, Bertuzzi, Nemestnikov and wasn't it Regula a son of a former Red Wings employee. And let's not forget Mark Howe has been director of pro scouting for 25 years. Oh almost forgot Mantha, his grandfather Marcel played 15 years in Detroit. And his grand-uncle Andre played 2 seasons in Detroit.

Nepotism..., yeah right.

Fascinating in that you are both disingenuous and naïve in the same post. And probably don't recognize either.

 

[Frk It]

Why can't you draft like that? Teams like the Leafs, Lightning, Penguins, etc. have shown that you can sign cheap 3rd/4th liners every offseason. Why specifically target that sort of player in the draft if they're readily available in FA? Every season there's 4th liners like Vesey, Petan, Larsson, Clifford, and more that sign for sub 1.5M and sub 1M deals. If the best you can hope for is to get a player that is easily replicable why bother investing anything into that asset?

It makes far more sense to invest in the top 6 or bust players because they're not only more expensive to get from FA, but will provide surplus value should they make it to the NHL in their ELC and subsequent RFA seasons.

Because you need a mix of different players, and because later on in the draft there is a terrible chance those top 6 or bust guys actually become top 6, and because this is real life and not a video game.

I generally agree with your philosophy, but AGAIN the Wings have been drafting guys like this... Phillips, Mastrosimone, Berggren, Kivenmaki etc.

So I don’t mind mixing in guys with different elements.

 

[MBH]

A guy like Gogolev is making your top 6 or not making your team at all. You can’t only draft players like that, or you will have no depth. We have been taking guys like Phillips, Mastrosimone, Niederbach, Tyutyatev, Kivenmaki so I don’t see the issue with drafting guys who compete and bring other elements.

I can have Gogolev as my 3LW or 3 RW. Or maybe you remember the Wings winning a cup with Hudler on L4.
If Draper was a no-skill fast guy, I'd get it. But he's not.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

A guy like Gogolev is making your top 6 or not making your team at all. You can’t only draft players like that, or you will have no depth. We have been taking guys like Phillips, Mastrosimone, Niederbach, Tyutyatev, Kivenmaki so I don’t see the issue with drafting guys who compete and bring other elements.

Disagree. I think you can quite easily rationalize drafting only boom or bust picks because the heart and soul guys are a dime a dozen in the league and can be added every free agency

 

[Frk It]

I can have Gogolev as my 3LW or 3 RW. Or maybe you remember the Wings winning a cup with Hudler on L4.
If Draper was a no-skill fast guy, I'd get it. But he's not.

Have you ever seen Draper play?

 

[Frk It]

Disagree. I think you can quite easily rationalize drafting only boom or bust picks because the heart and soul guys are a dime a dozen in the league and can be added every free agency

Ok, well 0 NHL teams currently do that, soooooooo

 

[MBH]

Have you ever seen Draper play?

No. Neither have you. And you're defending it. And I'm criticizing it.
We've both read the same scouting reports, though.
And yet you're still defending it.

As 7th rounders go, this was shit.
7th rounders tend to be shit.

But I'll take a Tyutyayev longshot over a Draper pick 100 times out of 100.
And I think if you weren't invested in defending Yzerman/Draper every time someone criticizes them, you probably would too.

 

[FabricDetails]

They took Draper becuse of his skill.

The can't get rid of his bloodlines.

He has his Dad's pointless random slapshot?

 

[MBH]

Disagree. I think you can quite easily rationalize drafting only boom or bust picks because the heart and soul guys are a dime a dozen in the league and can be added every free agency

Every pick in round 7 is boom or bust. FrkIt is grasping for straws.

 

[Frk It]

No. Neither have you. And you're defending it. And I'm criticizing it.
We've both read the same scouting reports, though.
And yet you're still defending it.

As 7th rounders go, this was shit.
7th rounders tend to be shit.

But I'll take a Tyutyayev longshot over a Draper pick 100 times out of 100.
And I think if you weren't invested in defending Yzerman/Draper every time someone criticizes them, you probably would too.

Lol. I am defending a 7th round pick no one has seen play. I have no interest in defending everything Yzerman/Draper do, and I don’t agree with everything Yzerman/Draper do.

I will speak out against players I have seen play I don’t think should have been picked. I have done so with Rasmussen, Zablocki, etc. I don’t usually do that with players I haven’t seen.

 

[Frk It]

Every pick in round 7 is boom or bust. FrkIt is grasping for straws.

The old pot calling the kettle black.

 

[BinCookin]

Disagree. I think you can quite easily rationalize drafting only boom or bust picks because the heart and soul guys are a dime a dozen in the league and can be added every free agency

I mean I have no idea if Signing draper is Nepotism or not. But it sure doesn't look all that good WITHOUT context.
I mean I kinda feel by not drafting him, IF no one else drafted him.... look who comes to our training camp and not anyone else as an undrafted guy (like Hicketts).

Butt in regards to your quote I DO have an opinion.

What defines a Boom or Bust signing.

Most people think small shifty skilled forward = boom / bust (Gadreau, Point, Johnson types).
I mean the key here is they are all small guys. And you better be good to be small.

Can a BIG player be Boom Bust pick?

I do not think things are as simple as we think sometimes.

Maybe Rasmussen is a swing for the fences pick. IF he works out, he's a Getzlaf. And if he fails, hes probably not even a Bjugstad. Boom Bust guys don't all have to be shrimpy players.

Good Example this year. Skilled player with horrible skating. Foerster. People compare him to Mark Stone. Saying Stone fell in his draft year as a big skilled guy who was horrid at skating. Foerster is similar.

Is he a Boom or Bust, because he went 23rd OA. And maybe his skill set is safe. Or is it Boom/Bust.

I just think defining this stuff is very hard, and thus labelling any pick as a boom/bust is impossible.


Also if a pick has a low offensive ceiling... does that make him sucky? I think if a player makes the NHL at all... its a home run.
So those "Safe picks" i.e. more likely to make the NHL... is that not just smarter??

 

[Frk It]

@MBH it comes down to expectations.

We had 12 picks. I don’t expect us to make 12 picks that I love. I don’t think that’s realistic.

I loved the Raymond, Wallinder, Niederbach picks.

I liked the Hanas, Viro, Cotton, Sebrango picks.

I don’t think we had a perfect draft, but I think we had a good draft. I gave it a B+.

I didn’t really care for the other picks, but they were also a lot of guys I didn’t have a chance to see play. They were also mostly guys taken in rounds 3-7. I am not going to get worked up about drafting a guy who might be a good bottom 6 character guy over some overager scoring goals in the OHL that has been passed over in 2 drafts.

 

[MBH]

The old pot calling the kettle black.

You've suggested
1) Gogolev is a boom or bust prospect, but somehow Draper isn't.
2) Gogolev can only be top 6.

I don't ever recall you arguing for grinders in round 7 before.
Whatever, I guess.

I just advocate for swinging for players.

 

[DatsyukToZetterberg]

Because you need a mix of different players, and because later on in the draft there is a terrible chance those top 6 or bust guys actually become top 6, and because this is real life and not a video game.

I generally agree with your philosophy, but AGAIN the Wings have been drafting guys like this... Phillips, Mastrosimone, Berggren, Kivenmaki etc.

So I don’t mind mixing in guys with different elements.

I agree 100% that you can't win with just a skilled team, you need some level of Grit™ to be successful in the playoffs; though I think it's more important for your top players to be willing to play with more of an edge than having a Dallas Drake on the 4th line. My overall point would be that you can sign that grit element of your teams from FA and it is a more efficient way to use your draft capital.

I also agree that most late round picks have a low probability of success, but I also feel like that doesn't accurately represent the quality of players that can be available in the later rounds. There are always players like Pashin that fall for no apparent reason and end up getting selected in the later rounds. Something as simple as points in a players draft year is already a significant indicator of a prospects likelihood of success, to the point that these "Top 6 or Bust" players make the NHL at a higher clip than their "Grit" counterparts, even in the later parts of the draft.

Ok, well 0 NHL teams currently do that, soooooooo

I don't think whether NHL teams do something is indicative of whether something can or can't be successful. We've seen in other sports that major league teams can be quite inefficient in some their decision making and I think the draft is one of those areas in the NHL. In the same way that NFL teams are now aware they shouldn't draft RB high in the draft I think we may similar adjustments to draft strategies in the NHL.

As for Draper, I think it was 100% a Brodeur style pick as he wasn't even that productive in the league. In the history of the league there have been just 3 players selected from the league in recent years: Morgan Barron, Matthew Stienburg, and now Kienan Draper. Both were more productive than Draper and were closer to being top players on their teams; the most productive player on St. Andrews was just shy of beating Warren Foegele's p/gp record.

I understand wanting to let your kid have their day, but I expect more from a professional organization. I'll be rooting for Draper to succeed, but I really don't see him being an impact player at even the NCAA level.

 

[RedMenace]

No. Neither have you. And you're defending it. And I'm criticizing it.
We've both read the same scouting reports, though.
And yet you're still defending it.

As 7th rounders go, this was shit.
7th rounders tend to be shit.

But I'll take a Tyutyayev longshot over a Draper pick 100 times out of 100.
And I think if you weren't invested in defending Yzerman/Draper every time someone criticizes them, you probably would too.

If it's a guess either way, why are people who think differently inherently "wrong," and you're inherently "right?"

Why would you say a random Russian player pick is worse than a pick who, especially now, has something to prove? Just because you want to be right?

Jesus, the Ego is a hell of a drug, I guess.