2020/21 Roster Thread XII: Heartache Spoken Here

[TCTC]

Didn't say he wasn't a top center, but he's not Crosby, MacDavid, MacKinnon or Bergeron or even Couts.
Couts has scored at a similar or higher level, but is also a perennial Selke finalist. We just don't appreciate what we have, "grass is greener syndrome."

In a vacuum, he'd be a great addition, but we're not getting him for free, he'll cost assets and a lot of cap room.
So unless you can work a deal like TK and Ghost (taking $10M off the books) and say #13, you could end up worse off.
And that's before you take the neck into consideration, Eichel wants an experimental procedure that still unproven.

You need at least 10-11 good players to compete at the top, two top lines (one top 10-15, the second 30-45), 3-4 20+ minute quality defensemen, a top ten goalie. So a marginal improvement at one spot can't come at the expense of other key positions.

Tbf, he said he's still meeting doctors and getting opinions. It's not like he just decided on a whim to get some obscure experimental procedure.

 

[Bigkarl]

Keep reading to where he got to play with the solid vet RW Okposo!

2017-18: 52nd
2018-19: 23rd
2019-20: 10th (with a 15.9% Sh, career 10.5%)

If you can get him relatively cheap AND his neck checks out AND they can dump $10M or so to fit his cap hit in, sure, go for it.
But he's not a difference maker, he's not a top ten scorer, he's not a two way center, he's not a dominant player.
He's going to be 25, that is, he's already pretty much at his peak, and he doesn't seem to be a late bloomer.

MacKinnon broke out at 22, which is also when Eichel took a big jump. Is there another jump left in him?

I really do love me some deady hot takes, and probably agree with you more often than most people do, but this is what I don't get about you.

Take a perfectly reasonable opinion that given Eichel's production, cap hit, injury history, and cost to acquire, you wouldn't have interest in him.

And then say something like "he's not a difference maker". And now try to perform gymnastics to support that absurd statement.

 

[deadhead]

Wait, did I just read that Eichel isn't even a difference maker?

edit:, Now I see, if a player isn't Crosby, McDavid, Mackinnon, Bergeron, or Couts, he's not a difference maker. There are only 5 difference making centers in the sport...

Pretty much, centers in the NHL rarely are difference makers, goalies on the other hand . . .
A top defenseman has more impact because they play 25+ minutes a night (and up to 30 in the playoffs).
Now an exceptional player is just that, but there are no more than a half dozen in the league at any time.
As good as G and Couts have been, even with the two of them, they've haven't been able to get the Flyers out of the first round, it took a red hot Hart to do that last season.
Even McDavid can't carry the Oilers, and he has Draisaitl to help him.

My point isn't whether Eichel would make the Flyers a better team in a vacuum, it's that he's not going to make the kind of difference that justifies selling the farm. So they score 10 more goals with him at center, just having average goalies would have reduced our GA by 40 goals last season. So getting a good 1B could have a much greater impact than Eichel.

 

[Bigkarl]

Pretty much, centers in the NHL rarely are difference makers, goalies on the other hand . . .
A top defenseman has more impact because they play 25+ minutes a night (and up to 30 in the playoffs).
Now an exceptional player is just that, but there are no more than a half dozen in the league at any time.
As good as G and Couts have been, even with the two of them, they've haven't been able to get the Flyers out of the first round, it took a red hot Hart to do that last season.
Even McDavid can't carry the Oilers, and he has Draisaitl to help him.

You've got a strange definition of "difference maker"

 

[flyerslducks]

Hey, @BritainStix we need you to come police the people policing the ignored in this thread.

is this what everyone has done lol?

 

[flyerslducks]

So unless you can work a deal like TK and Ghost (taking $10M off the books) and say #13, you could end up worse off.

you wouldn't do that trade? i would even throw in Patrick idgaf and hayes, even zamula. i just want to win, idgaf anymore and we still have insane depth

g-eichel-voracek
jvr-couts-farabee
lindblom-frost-allison
laughton-lazynski-nak

 

[The Madrigal]

Fletcher made a good point in the press conference: Since 2014 (Hextall era) this team invested heavily in drafting & developing young players, & now, in 2021, all of those young players with the exception of Farabee plateaued or took a step back. And they can’t change the entire team with a snap of the fingers, so they need more of those players to step up. It was an understated way of saying Hextall’s five year tenure has been a flop.

Hmmm, kind of sounds like what you and I have been warning against for a couple of years around here. Counting on every good prospect that comes through the system to not only pan out, but reach their ceiling is a recipe for disaster.

Look no further than the defense which is far and away the biggest weakness of this team. Provorov, Sanheim, Ghost, Myers, Hagg, Morin, etc and what do they have to show for it. A really good number 2 defenseman, two talented but very inconsistent 2nd pairing guys who regressed this year, Ghost who the whole league passed on for free, and two 6/7 D.

Hextall might be the most overrated GM in the history of Philly sports. Some were acting like he was building a potential dynasty during his time here, when in fact what he was built was a fringe playoff team.

 

[The Madrigal]

Reminder on Eichel...paced for 87 pts then 94 pts the last 2 years before this injury plagued one. Also saw his PPG get better every year he has been in the league.

But don't worry, we have Allison, Foerster and Brink coming!

Welcome to the dark side.....

 

[deadhead]

You've got a strange definition of "difference maker"

I have high standards.

To me, a difference maker is the kind of player who dominates games, like Crosby in his prime, McDavid, and so on.
And especially in the playoffs.
In the case of Boston, Bergeron (last 48 PO games, 41 points)/Marchand (last 49 PO games, 52 points).
TB has Kucherov (PO: 90g, 95 points), Point (PO: 44g, 50 points) and Hedman,
Ovechkin (136 PO games, 131 points, 69 goals).

Now there are a lot of good players, and the more the merrier.
Teams that hoist the Cup don't always have the most talented players, but the ones that rise to the occasion. They have "it."

 

[The Madrigal]

It is a no-brainer. For all the talk of potentially blowing it up, we could just save the time, pain, and uncertainty by just acquiring a 24 year old 1C on the trade market instead.

It's like groundhog day around here. Rewind three years ago when myself and others were calling for the Flyers to make a big time move and get Ryan O'Reilly. You had all of these people freaking out about giving up guys like Patrick and Frost, or assets like first round picks, etc. Now there is another big time center on the market who is younger than ROR was when he was traded and a much better talent and we can't possibly give up some prospects and picks. Anyone want to remind me how guys like Patrick and Frost have done for the Flyers since 2018 and how that trade for ROR worked out for the Blues.

Unless you are a team like the Pens who ended up with multiple top 3 picks it is extremely difficult to put together a cup winning team where the vast majority of your roster is made up of home grown talent. Even they had to add some talent around those core guys in free agency and from the trade market to gain their success.

 

[Starat327]

 

[Swic21]

Hmmm, kind of sounds like what you and I have been warning against for a couple of years around here. Counting on every good prospect that comes through the system to not only pan out, but reach their ceiling is a recipe for disaster.

Look no further than the defense which is far and away the biggest weakness of this team. Provorov, Sanheim, Ghost, Myers, Hagg, Morin, etc and what do they have to show for it. A really good number 2 defenseman, two talented but very inconsistent 2nd pairing guys who regressed this year, Ghost who the whole league passed on for free, and two 6/7 D.

Hextall might be the most overrated GM in the history of Philly sports. Some were acting like he was building a potential dynasty during his time here, when in fact what he was built was a fringe playoff team.

This is something I too have mentioned in the last year or so. I personally have zero problem giving up a prospect+1st round pick, for the right player. Some people around here tend to think draft picks are golden eggs that can’t be moved, or hold more value than they do. You need to pick the right player, and you need said player to pan out at the right time for things to go well. Look how long it took Couts, look at how Ghost burst on the scene and hasn’t been able to replicate it, Frost hasn’t made an impact quite yet ( he still has time), Morin’s injuries... I could go on and on. You just never know. If you want to be a perennial playoff team, or contender, you have to take some chances. This organization has been way too safe since 2012. No impact trades, no monster free agent signings that have paid off, it’s just been a very safe decade. Boring decade. We’ve been patient, you can’t tell me the fan base hasn’t been patient. We’ve complained, but we’ve been patient. It’s time to start taking some risks and bring some excitement back.

 

[Redpath]

This is something I too have mentioned in the last year or so. I personally have zero problem giving up a prospect+1st round pick, for the right player. Some people around here tend to think draft picks are golden eggs that can’t be moved, or hold more value than they do. You need to pick the right player, and you need said player to pan out at the right time for things to go well. Look how long it took Couts, look at how Ghost burst on the scene and hasn’t been able to replicate it, Frost hasn’t made an impact quite yet ( he still has time), Morin’s injuries... I could go on and on. You just never know. If you want to be a perennial playoff team, or contender, you have to take some chances. This organization has been way too safe since 2012. No impact trades, no monster free agent signings that have paid off, it’s just been a very safe decade. Boring decade. We’ve been patient, you can’t tell me the fan base hasn’t been patient. We’ve complained, but we’ve been patient. It’s time to start taking some risks and bring some excitement back.

This is in part why I think Fletcher will be a big player for Eichel. Dave Scott probably hears about Eichel and sees dollar signs. For us to make a marquee trade for a 24 year old superstar would be rejuvenating for our stale roster and organization. Considering Fletcher was in on Laine trade talks last offseason, it is the type of trade that fits a similar mold.

 

[Swic21]

This is in part why I think Fletcher will be a big player for Eichel. Dave Scott probably hears about Eichel and sees dollar signs. For us to make a marquee trade for a 24 year old superstar would be rejuvenating for our stale roster and organization. Considering Fletcher was in on Laine trade talks last offseason, it is the type of trade that fits a similar mold.

Ya I could see it. Again, not to bring up the past, but I remember when the Flyers were in on EVERY big name player. Im not saying with the current roster and cap situation it’s realistic, but it keeps things interesting. Put the league on notice if a big name becomes available, Philly will be a candidate. Get some respect on the Flyers name again.

 

[The Madrigal]

This is something I too have mentioned in the last year or so. I personally have zero problem giving up a prospect+1st round pick, for the right player. Some people around here tend to think draft picks are golden eggs that can’t be moved, or hold more value than they do. You need to pick the right player, and you need said player to pan out at the right time for things to go well. Look how long it took Couts, look at how Ghost burst on the scene and hasn’t been able to replicate it, Frost hasn’t made an impact quite yet ( he still has time), Morin’s injuries... I could go on and on. You just never know. If you want to be a perennial playoff team, or contender, you have to take some chances. This organization has been way too safe since 2012. No impact trades, no monster free agent signings that have paid off, it’s just been a very safe decade. Boring decade. We’ve been patient, you can’t tell me the fan base hasn’t been patient. We’ve complained, but we’ve been patient. It’s time to start taking some risks and bring some excitement back.

I couldn't have said it any better myself. I've gone through the ups and downs of being a Flyers fan since the mid 90's but it's always been a fun and exciting ride. The last 2-3 years though apathy is starting to set in and it just keeps getting worse and worse. This franchise is officially boring and a complete and total non-factor in the league both on and off the ice. We are closer to the Arizona Coyotes than we are to a premier organization at this point. I can't imagine what Mr. Snider would think of this.

 

[Swic21]

I couldn't have said it any better myself. I've gone through the ups and downs of being a Flyers fan since the mid 90's but it's always been a fun and exciting ride. The last 2-3 years though apathy is starting to set in and it just keeps getting worse and worse. This franchise is officially boring and a complete and total non-factor in the league both on and off the ice. We are closer to the Arizona Coyotes than we are to a premier organization at this point. I can't imagine what Mr. Snider would think of this.

It’s just such a bland time to be a flyers fan. And shame on them for making us feel this way. Last year, looked like we may have finally turned the corner, and it turned out to be one of the worst seasons I’ve seen as a fan, if not the worst. This is such a massive off-season, I just don’t trust Fletcher to handle it the right way. I’m terrified.

 

[TheKingPin]

If Eichel is available there is no way the flyers don’t go after him. He is a 100 pt player here.

 

[Beef Invictus]

We are at the point where blowing up a little for Eichel is a thing you may as well do.

If he flops in the end, what's the difference? More years of failure? That's already the path we are on since it would now be a bit of a shock if Patrick or Provorov become what we needed them to be.

 

[Rebels57]

We are at the point where blowing up a little for Eichel is a thing you may as well do.

If he flops in the end, what's the difference? More years of failure? That's already the path we are on since it would now be a bit of a shock if Patrick or Provorov become what we needed them to be.

Bingo. We have nothing to lose.

 

[mize370]

We are at the point where blowing up a little for Eichel is a thing you may as well do.

If he flops in the end, what's the difference? More years of failure? That's already the path we are on since it would now be a bit of a shock if Patrick or Provorov become what we needed them to be.

No worries here Beef. 100 point center Frost and calder trophy winner Bobby Brink are here next year to lead us in flip passes accepted!!

 

[Striiker]

Look how long it took Couts, look at how Ghost burst on the scene and hasn’t been able to replicate it, Frost hasn’t made an impact quite yet ( he still has time), Morin’s injuries... I could go on and on.

These are all pretty bad examples, to be honest.

-Couturiers problem was usage, not quality of play. As soon as he was put at 1C and on the top unit, multiple 70+ point years.

-Ghost not only replicated his first season but had an even better one in 2017-2018. Since then the problem has been usage. Like Couturiers situation, except inverted.

-Frost should have been in the NHL all 2019-2020, but AV and Fletcher are dumb. Then this year he had a fluke shoulder injury. None of that is his fault. He deserved a spot and is good enough to help this team win games.

-Morin should have made the team over Hagg back in 2017-2018. Better player, better AHL performance, better preseason, better literally everything. And yet, no. Haggs played 250 NHL games and Morin went down and got hurt. Finally got to play this year and he outperformed Hagg again.

So do you see the pattern here? It’s not that using draft pics and developing players is too risky or tough. The real lesson is that even if you draft great players like Couturier, very good players like Ghost, good prospects like Frost, or passable depth like Morin, none of it matters if they’re not used properly and set up to succeed.

 

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

Closed.

Approaching 1,000 posts.

Move it: 2020/21 Roster Thread XIII: Not for triskaidekaphobia but we have arrived