2020/2021 Around the League Thread | Part 3

[I am toxic]

NHL changed the rule right before we were extremely bad for multiple years, and are now going to change it to be more favourable to the bottom teams right as we become a bubble team.

We are cursed.

 

[Jyrki21]

NHL changed the rule right before we were extremely bad for multiple years, and are now going to change it to be more favourable to the bottom teams right as we become a bubble team.

Making the lottery less random entirely defeats the point. The fact that most fans instinctively push back against all randomization shows how much they miss the point too. Let's incentivize cheering for our teams lose! Let's reward one-off bad luck outliers and punish the league's middle class!

 

[StreetHawk]

Making the lottery less random entirely defeats the point. The fact that most fans instinctively push back against all randomization shows how much they miss the point too. Let's incentivize cheering for our teams lose! Let's reward one-off bad luck outliers and punish the league's middle class!

I was fine with the current system, EXCEPT for the odds that they changed after the 2014 lottery. If you are going to randomize the top 3 picks, no reason to increase the odds of the better non playoff teams which is what the NHL did in 2015 for the McDavid draft, then into 2016 and later for the top 3 picks.

I'm all for NOT rewarding the TANK mentality. Hate it.

This new one, eh.... I have no issues dropping it from top 3 to top 2. Not sure on the whole, maximum of 10 spots. If you win, you win IMO. Don't want the better teams to win it, change the percentages. As for being that lucky winning it 3 times out of 10 draws, unlikely to be used, but sure.

So, are the "winners" condition retroactive? That NJ can't win it again for example since they won in 2017 and 2019? Same with the Rangers in 2019 and 2020? Or is that from this draft onwards?

 

[MS]

Making the lottery less random entirely defeats the point. The fact that most fans instinctively push back against all randomization shows how much they miss the point too. Let's incentivize cheering for our teams lose! Let's reward one-off bad luck outliers and punish the league's middle class!

I've said for years that the draft lottery should be a completely random draw from all 15 non-playoff teams.

15 balls in the machine, and whatever order they come out in, that's the draft.

Losing should never, ever be incentivized.

 

[Vector]

NHL should either have it so all 16 non-playoff teams have an equal chance in the first round or go the NFL/MLB route and just order it by reverse standings and abandon all pretense.

 

[4Twenty]

I've said for years that the draft lottery should be a completely random draw from all 15 non-playoff teams.

15 balls in the machine, and whatever order they come out in, that's the draft.

Losing should never, ever be incentivized.

In the premier league the top team gets the biggest share of the leagues tv deals and it scales down the lower you go. Incentivizes finishing higher not lower. Completely opposite to the welfare state of North American pro sports.

 

[Jyrki21]

It's also nonsense that the draft doesn't follow a snake pattern rather than doubling down on the distortionary effect of the draft every round and tilting it even more toward the bottom teams.

 

[F A N]

I was fine with the current system, EXCEPT for the odds that they changed after the 2014 lottery. If you are going to randomize the top 3 picks, no reason to increase the odds of the better non playoff teams which is what the NHL did in 2015 for the McDavid draft, then into 2016 and later for the top 3 picks.

I'm all for NOT rewarding the TANK mentality. Hate it.

This new one, eh.... I have no issues dropping it from top 3 to top 2. Not sure on the whole, maximum of 10 spots. If you win, you win IMO. Don't want the better teams to win it, change the percentages. As for being that lucky winning it 3 times out of 10 draws, unlikely to be used, but sure.

So, are the "winners" condition retroactive? That NJ can't win it again for example since they won in 2017 and 2019? Same with the Rangers in 2019 and 2020? Or is that from this draft onwards?

I think the concern is for a team on the rise and just barely missed the playoffs to get the #1 pick and draft a generational talent. The impact from Orlando Magic drafting Shaq then get the 1st overall pick the next year. The Nordiques with 3 consecutive #1 overall and the Penguins drafting 4 straight top 2 went a long way to helping those teams win multiple Cups.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

I've said for years that the draft lottery should be a completely random draw from all 15 non-playoff teams.

15 balls in the machine, and whatever order they come out in, that's the draft.

Losing should never, ever be incentivized.

That change would not change anything except fans like ours would be hoping we would miss the playoffs rather than make them. Remember all the fans wanting to lose to Minny so team could be in lottery. The 17th place team is given a likely reward while failing to make playoffs. Why? It happens enough under this system. Why stop there why not just have a 32 team random draw where you can win the cup and the lottery the same year while the last place could pick 32nd. Rich get richer while the poor have little hope. Maybe we should just have a league wide redraft every year based off lottery balls. So every year McDavid plays for a different team, every team needs to stay under salary cap. That would be a kind of fun and stop any losing on purpose while avoiding the inequality

 

[DustyMartellaughs]

I’m just glad they’re not going back to a roulette wheel.

 

[MS]

That change would not change anything except fans like ours would be hoping we would miss the playoffs rather than make them. Remember all the fans wanting to lose to Minny so team could be in lottery. The 17th place team is given a likely reward while failing to make playoffs. Why? It happens enough under this system. Why stop there why not just have a 32 team random draw where you can win the cup and the lottery the same year while the last place could pick 32nd. Rich get richer while the poor have little hope. Maybe we should just have a league wide redraft every year based off lottery balls. So every year McDavid plays for a different team, every team needs to stay under salary cap. That would be a kind of fun and stop any losing on purpose while avoiding the inequality

No fan with more than 2 brain cells would rather have an open 15-team lottery over playoff games. And absolutely zero teams would ever consider that to be a realistic choice.

 

[Dab]

I've said for years that the draft lottery should be a completely random draw from all 15 non-playoff teams.

15 balls in the machine, and whatever order they come out in, that's the draft.

Losing should never, ever be incentivized.

This puts franchises in non-desirable locations at such a disadvantage. Imagine losing key FAs every year and not getting the draft picks to replace them...

not to mention awarding complete mediocrity (17th overall) with the 1st overall pick does not strike me as much fairer or rewarding competition. What, because they had a few more loser points or are in an easier division they are a bastion of competitiveness? Cmon!

 

[Dab]

In the premier league the top team gets the biggest share of the leagues tv deals and it scales down the lower you go. Incentivizes finishing higher not lower. Completely opposite to the welfare state of North American pro sports.

The parity in most North American sports makes the Premier league look like a joke.

 

[MS]

This puts franchises in non-desirable locations at such a disadvantage. Imagine losing key FAs every year and not getting the draft picks to replace them...

not to mention awarding complete mediocrity (17th overall) with the 1st overall pick does not strike me as much fairer or rewarding competition. What, because they had a few more loser points or are in an easier division they are a bastion of competitiveness? Cmon!

I don't really care. Winnipeg is the least desirable location in the NHL and they've had 1 pick higher than 9th in the last decade and are a top team in the league. An open lottery actually would probably have benefitted them. And I'm not keeping a stacked lottery just because I feel sorry for Edmonton and their terribly-run team.

Generally speaking, the difference between position 17 and position 28 in the NHL is negligible (5-8 points) and then you have 2 or 3 teams intentionally tanking.

Rewarding failure goes against the basic ethos of sport, which is that every athlete and every team should be doing their best to win on every given night. If the system makes it more attractive for a team to lose games than to win them, the system is fundamentally broken. And literally anything is better for me than that sort of fundamentally broken system where losing is incentivized.

 

[I am toxic]

It's also nonsense that the draft doesn't follow a snake pattern rather than doubling down on the distortionary effect of the draft every round and tilting it even more toward the bottom teams.

We learned that in kindergarten.

Someday, the brass at the NHL will get there.

Someday.

 

[sting101]

I like the idea of accumulating pts once your mathematically out of the playoffs. Most pts gets top pick.

Schedule would be an issue though...would have to be somewhat balanced. Instead of winning a cup you win a #1 OA. Loser derby would make every game meaningful

Good teams may have no games to accumulate pts so that would put them in the later selections

 

[mriswith]

We haven't seen teams with good management deliberately tank in the last 10 years. Has that happened in the cap era?

At most you see good management exercising patience because of draft position which I think is fine.

The teams that have tanked sucked before they tanked and then sucked after they tanked, because the reasons that they had to resort to tanking meant the tank didn't save them.

I don't think the system is in dire need of change outside of what they are already proposing. Both the draft system and the salary cap work together to push teams into forced parity which is better for the game than superteams and perennial losers without the ability to sell hope.

The only thing I've hated with the current system is watching awful organizations ruin multiple first overall picks by being awful organizations and that's getting solved now.

 

[Fatass]

We haven't seen teams with good management deliberately tank in the last 10 years. Has that happened in the cap era?

At most you see good management exercising patience because of draft position which I think is fine.

The teams that have tanked sucked before they tanked and then sucked after they tanked, because the reasons that they had to resort to tanking meant the tank didn't save them.

I don't think the system is in dire need of change. Both the draft system and the salary cap work together to push teams into forced parity which is better for the game than superteams and perennial losers without the ability to sell hope.

Babcock said the Leafs did what they could to finish last, so they would have the best chance to get Matthews. Tanking worked out pretty good for the Leafs. But the tank needs to be plnned around the right draft classes. I think the Sabres tanked hard in the McDavid draft too. They lost the lotto and got second prize, but still are terrible.

 

[MS]

We haven't seen teams with good management deliberately tank in the last 10 years. Has that happened in the cap era?

At most you see good management exercising patience because of draft position which I think is fine.

The teams that have tanked sucked before they tanked and then sucked after they tanked, because the reasons that they had to resort to tanking meant the tank didn't save them.

I don't think the system is in dire need of change outside of what they are already proposing. Both the draft system and the salary cap work together to push teams into forced parity which is better for the game than superteams and perennial losers without the ability to sell hope.

The only thing I've hated with the current system is watching awful organizations ruin multiple first overall picks by being awful organizations and that's getting solved now.

Toronto a few years ago and Detroit now are tanking teams with good management.

If the (on average) 24th place team gets the #1 overall pick, that isn't going to change the level of parity. Especially since the *really bad* teams would no longer happen unless they were managed by Jim Benning. The difference between the 17th place team and the 31st place team in that situation would not be massive.

Tanking is garbage. It's anti-sport and should never be allowed to happen. And doesn't anywhere else in the world. but fans in NA are just used to it and don't understand how freaking bizarre it is. Imagine watching the Olympics and athletes were intentionally trying to suck because last place received a huge training grant.

 

[mriswith]

Babcock said the Leafs did what they could to finish last, so they would have the best chance to get Matthews. Tanking worked out pretty good for the Leafs. But the tank needs to be plnned around the right draft classes. I think the Sabres tanked hard in the McDavid draft too. They lost the lotto and got second prize, but still are terrible.

Toronto a few years ago and Detroit now are tanking teams with good management.

If the (on average) 24th place team gets the #1 overall pick, that isn't going to change the level of parity. Especially since the *really bad* teams would no longer happen unless they were managed by Jim Benning. The difference between the 17th place team and the 31st place team in that situation would not be massive.

Tanking is garbage. It's anti-sport and should never be allowed to happen. And doesn't anywhere else in the world. but fans in NA are just used to it and don't understand how freaking bizarre it is. Imagine watching the Olympics and athletes were intentionally trying to suck because last place received a huge training grant.

I don't know if I'd call what Steve Yzerman is doing tanking. He hasn't sold significant assets and he's still improving his team. I would call it being patient.

Buffalo definitely tanked but they fall under the bad management that sucked before they tanked and sucked after.

Toronto might qualify, I had stepped back from caring about hockey that year and don't know what they did. Did they have any blatant tank transactions or was it just Babcock coaching to fail? Were they tanking in 2014 and 2015 too?

I'm not going to defend tanking as a principle, just that other than maybe Toronto good managers haven't used it as a strategy so it can't be that great. Instead what we repeatedly see is the teams that have horrible management fail repeatedly, and after failing repeatedly they resort to tanking in desperation and it still doesn't save them.

 

[Fatass]

I don't know if I'd call what Steve Yzerman is doing tanking. He hasn't sold significant assets and he's still improving his team. I would call it being patient.

Buffalo definitely tanked but they fall under the bad management that sucked before they tanked and sucked after.

Toronto might qualify, I had stepped back from caring about hockey that year and don't know what they did. Did they have any blatant tank transactions or was it just Babcock coaching to fail? Were they tanking in 2014 and 2015 too?

I'm not going to defend tanking as a principle, just that other than maybe Toronto good managers haven't used it as a strategy so it can't be that great. Instead what we repeatedly see is the teams that have horrible management fail repeatedly, and after failing repeatedly they resort to tanking in desperation and it still doesn't save them.

During the season Babcock said there will be pain. Then in his recent interview he said they did what it took to get the best lotto odds. Tanking works, but needs to be in the right draft, and (like you say) the team still needs to be managed after. im PREtty sure after THEir Tank Babcock coached the Matthew led LEAfs to 105 points, which was their franchise record.

 

[Dab]

I don't really care. Winnipeg is the least desirable location in the NHL and they've had 1 pick higher than 9th in the last decade and are a top team in the league. An open lottery actually would probably have benefitted them. And I'm not keeping a stacked lottery just because I feel sorry for Edmonton and their terribly-run team.

Generally speaking, the difference between position 17 and position 28 in the NHL is negligible (5-8 points) and then you have 2 or 3 teams intentionally tanking.

Rewarding failure goes against the basic ethos of sport, which is that every athlete and every team should be doing their best to win on every given night. If the system makes it more attractive for a team to lose games than to win them, the system is fundamentally broken. And literally anything is better for me than that sort of fundamentally broken system where losing is incentivized.

Nah, you’ve gotten the ethos of this sport wrong- the NHL hands out loser points.

also, it may be an individual franchise’s goal to win, and even the point of the sport- but the goal of professional leagues is to make money- handing out the trophy is a means to that end, and the draft order plays into that.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I've said for years that the draft lottery should be a completely random draw from all 15 non-playoff teams.

15 balls in the machine, and whatever order they come out in, that's the draft.

Losing should never, ever be incentivized.

How would you feel if the draft was gotten rid of, and a youth academy system was put in like European soccer? Teams would be able to sign players once they are draft eligable, that can be slided if they go back to junior, or loaned to European teams. Maybe put a limit on bonus money or something.

 

[Josepho]

I've teetered back and forth on this topic (possibly selfishly) over the years but I think I'm at the point where I'm sick of seeing losers like Benning/Dorion/AnySabresGM get rewarded for being garbage.

 

[Dab]

I've teetered back and forth on this topic (possibly selfishly) over the years but I think I'm at the point where I'm sick of seeing losers like Benning/Dorion/AnySabresGM get rewarded for being garbage.

Yes reward the successful franchises that didn’t build on getting lottery luck like Chicago and Pittsburgh and Tampa! Wait a second...