2019 year end vote for the James Norris Memorial Trophy winner.

[Haatley]

Burns, Norris winner
Reilly - runner up
Giordano - 3rd finalist

Why? Burns lead the NHL defensemen in PTS at 1.01 which is quit a feat. Plus he's lead the NHL in GWGs.

Reilly - good defense, lead the NHL defensemen in Gs, and is 2nd behind Burns in GWGs.

Giordano - Falls behind Burns in PTS, and way down the list at tied at #23 for GWGs. When the game comes down to the wire. It's Burns and Reilly you want. Plus, the take down of McDavid. Probably a bad move that will cost him some votes.

Ah
So the Norris Trophy goes to the defenceman with most game winning goals? Ive been wrong my entire life.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Gio
Burns

Rielly

 

[BrendanGallagher11]

Gio easily

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Burns, Norris winner
Reilly - runner up
Giordano - 3rd finalist

Why? Burns lead the NHL defensemen in PTS at 1.01 which is quit a feat. Plus he's lead the NHL in GWGs.

Reilly - good defense, lead the NHL defensemen in Gs, and is 2nd behind Burns in GWGs.

Giordano - Falls behind Burns in PTS, and way down the list at tied at #23 for GWGs. When the game comes down to the wire. It's Burns and Reilly you want. Plus, the take down of McDavid. Probably a bad move that will cost him some votes.

Never have I seen such a ignorant response in my life. Even for forwards GWG without context means nothing, for defenseman I don't even think GWG matters.

 

[ESH]

Burns, Norris winner
Reilly - runner up
Giordano - 3rd finalist

Why? Burns lead the NHL defensemen in PTS at 1.01 which is quit a feat. Plus he's lead the NHL in GWGs.

Reilly - good defense, lead the NHL defensemen in Gs, and is 2nd behind Burns in GWGs.

Giordano - Falls behind Burns in PTS, and way down the list at tied at #23 for GWGs. When the game comes down to the wire. It's Burns and Reilly you want. Plus, the take down of McDavid. Probably a bad move that will cost him some votes.

When the game comes down to the wire, there’s no defenseman you want out there over Giordano right now.

 

[Cult of Hynes]

Gio

 

[Morgs]

Burns is a better defensive player than Morgan Rielly.

Rielly has been awful defensively in some of the hardest minutes in the league. Burns has been very bad defensively in 2nd pair comp, much easier zone starts.

Really not an argument I'd die on a hill for as they're probably two of the worst defensive defensemen in the league lol.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Lol Rielly has been awful defensively in some of the hardest minutes in the league. Burns has been very bad in 2nd pair, much easier zone starts.

Really not an argument I'd die on a hill for.

Among 124 defensemen with 1000 minutes at 5V5...

Rielly allowed the 4th highest rate of shot attempts per 60 minutes.

Burns allowed the 8th lowest rate of shot attempts per 60 minutes.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Glad to see the membership of HF isn't watching games with a paper bag on their head.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Does anyone have the season splits for Reilly? IIRC he was well over PPG halfway through the season, he must have had a pretty big scoring slump, or at least scored at a much lower rate than he was early in the season

 

[Tkachuky]

Does anyone have the season splits for Reilly? IIRC he was well over PPG halfway through the season, he must have had a pretty big scoring slump, or at least scored at a much lower rate than he was early in the season

Didn’t he lead the league in scoring for was top 5 for all player around the first 10-15 games?

 

[Regal]

Does anyone have the season splits for Reilly? IIRC he was well over PPG halfway through the season, he must have had a pretty big scoring slump, or at least scored at a much lower rate than he was early in the season

First 21 games: 9G -17A -26PTS
Next 20 games: 4G -15A -19PTS

First half totals: 13G -32A -45PTS

Next 21 games: 2G -14A -16PTS
Final 20 games: 5G -6A -11PTS

Second half totals: 7G -20A -27PTS

 

[Nashology]

Gio then Burns and Rielly. Though I personally feel Burns should not be in the convo just because I feel like he's just a forward that plays on the blue line and while his offensive contributions are great, that defense is scary bad. And this is coming from someone who sees OFDs as a good thing and not a bad one. If it were my choice Gio wins, Rielly and then Hedman would be a finalist.

Thank you for letting us all know that you know nothing.

 

[iginlafan77]

Burns, Norris winner
Reilly - runner up
Giordano - 3rd finalist

Why? Burns lead the NHL defensemen in PTS at 1.01 which is quit a feat. Plus he's lead the NHL in GWGs.

Reilly - good defense, lead the NHL defensemen in Gs, and is 2nd behind Burns in GWGs.

Giordano - Falls behind Burns in PTS, and way down the list at tied at #23 for GWGs. When the game comes down to the wire. It's Burns and Reilly you want. Plus, the take down of McDavid. Probably a bad move that will cost him some votes.

Your only criteria for the best defensman are points and game winning goals?

 

[Snakepit]

Giordano easily. Might be the easiest pick for Norris winner in a long time

Hedman and Burns finalists with Rielly being right here as well

 

[Morgs]

Among 124 defensemen with 1000 minutes at 5V5...

Rielly allowed the 4th highest rate of shot attempts per 60 minutes.

Burns allowed the 8th lowest rate of shot attempts per 60 minutes.

While I admire your attempt, you're talking about one of the best defensive teams vs one of the worst, and overall CA/60 really tells you nothing when comparing two guys on different teams. Their basic relative CA/60 and xGA/60 stats would tell a much better story.

But, the best way to measure defense is to look at their isolated defensive impact using RAPM. Of the 130 defensemen that played over 1000 minutes this season, RAPM_CA/60 ranks Rielly 123rd and Burns ranks 78th. In regards to RAPM_xGA/60 (the best way to rate defense) Rielly ranks 128th and Burns ranks 106th.

So yeah, Rielly is worse but he has played significantly tougher comp (12th compared to 85th), had almost 10% more defensive zone starts, plays on a much worse defensive team (27th to 1st in CA/60, 24th to 13th in xGA/60), and he plays with Ron freaking Hainsey.

In conclusion, they both suck defensively with Burns grading a little better and Rielly playing in some of the toughest minutes in the NHL.

 

[ESH]

While I admire your attempt, you're talking about one of the best defensive teams vs one of the worst, and overall CA/60 really tells you nothing when comparing two guys on different teams. Their basic relative CA/60 and xGA/60 stats would tell a much better story.

But, the best way to measure defense is to look at their isolated defensive impact using RAPM. Of the 130 defensemen that played over 1000 minutes this season, RAPM_CA/60 ranks Rielly 123rd and Burns ranks 78th. In regards to RAPM_xGA/60 (the best way to rate defense) Rielly ranks 128th and Burns ranks 106th.

So yeah, Rielly is worse but he has played significantly tougher comp (12th compared to 85th), had almost 10% more defensive zone starts, plays on a much worse defensive team (27th to 1st in CA/60, 24th to 13th in xGA/60), and he plays with Ron freaking Hainsey.

In conclusion, they both suck defensively with Burns grading a little better and Rielly playing in some of the toughest minutes in the NHL.

What is RAPM? Also how is toughness of competition being measured here?

 

[Paul4587]

Didn’t he lead the league in scoring for was top 5 for all player around the first 10-15 games?

Yes. This had Leafs fans claiming he was having a historical year and was going to have the best offensive season from a dman since Paul Coffey. Rational fans argued he wouldn't keep up the pace which didn't take too well with Leafs fans.

 

[ottawa]

Gio, easily.

 

[Morgs]

What is RAPM? Also how is toughness of competition being measured here?

TOI.QoC: Time On Ice Quality of Competition; The weighted average TOI% of a player’s opponents faced

Not perfect, but at the moment its the best we got.
---
RAPM (regularized adjusted plus minus):

The goal of this type of analysis (APM/RAPM) is to isolate a given player’s contribution while on the ice independent of all factors that we can account for. Put simply, this allows us to better measure the individual performance of a given player in an environment where many factors can impact their raw results.

Very interesting read if its your kind of thing: Reviving Regularized Adjusted Plus-Minus for Hockey

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

While I admire your attempt, you're talking about one of the best defensive teams vs one of the worst, and overall CA/60 really tells you nothing when comparing two guys on different teams. Their basic relative CA/60 and xGA/60 stats would tell a much better story.

But, the best way to measure defense is to look at their isolated defensive impact using RAPM. Of the 130 defensemen that played over 1000 minutes this season, RAPM_CA/60 ranks Rielly 123rd and Burns ranks 78th. In regards to RAPM_xGA/60 (the best way to rate defense) Rielly ranks 128th and Burns ranks 106th.

So yeah, Rielly is worse but he has played significantly tougher comp (12th compared to 85th), had almost 10% more defensive zone starts, plays on a much worse defensive team (27th to 1st in CA/60, 24th to 13th in xGA/60), and he plays with Ron freaking Hainsey.

In conclusion, they both suck defensively with Burns grading a little better and Rielly playing in some of the toughest minutes in the NHL.

Looking at team relative numbers doesn't really change anything in Rielly's case but it does push Burns down from elite to average or slightly below as a suppressor. Rielly is still 8th highest in CA/60 Rel (7.51) and 3rd highest in xGA/60 Rel (0.5), while Burns is 63rd highest in CA/60 Rel (0.51) and 45th highest in xGA/60 Rel (0.14).

You do realize that RAPM already accounts for usage, right? It's redundant to mention RAPM and then say "but he has played tougher comp, defensive usage, etc." And part of the reason that RAPM says Burns is still better is because Burns has the 3rd lowest TOI% QoT of any defenseman with 1000 minutes, and the 2nd lowest aggregate skater quality. (TOI% QoT - TOI% QoC) Rielly, in comparison, has the 22nd highest TOI% QoT and the 36th highest aggregate skater quality. Beyond that, just look at who their teammates are.

Rielly's most common defense partner was Ron Hainsey, Burns' most common defense partner was Radim Simek. (Simek is actually a better player IMO, but he only played 41 games with him and the rest of Burns' partners haven't been steady.)

Rielly's most common center was John Tavares, Burns' most common center was Joe Pavelski.

Rielly's most common winger was Mitchell Marner, Burns' most common winger was Evander Kane.

Rielly's most common goaltender was Frederik Andersen, Burns' most common goaltender was Martin Jones. (I know this doesn't impact xGF/CF, but it's worth noting for the sake of plus/minus and goals which will inevitably get brought up.)

Rielly is an offensive defenseman who has a 54.89% ZSR and plays nearly half of his 5V5 minutes with one of the best 5V5 offensive duos in the NHL. He absolutely does not play some of the toughest minutes in the NHL. Mentioning Hainsey and trying to push a "bad teammates" argument for Rielly really doesn't work here. He is just worse defensively than Burns and pretty much all of this is explained by RAPM which you yourself called "the best way to measure defense". Neither one of them are defensive studs and that's fine because it isn't their job. But Burns is better at defense and he's also much better at offense.

 

[spiny norman]

Lopsided result.