WJC: 2019 WJC U20 D1A in Füssen, Germany (9/12 - 15/12 2018)

[kabidjan18]

Eishockey.at - Livescores
Lol...

5-1, 40-16.

We don't need two of our best 2-way forwards...we can afford to leave them at home for petty reasons...

We sat 5 this game, they sat 5. The 5 coming back are not going to make a big enough of a difference. Especially with Rossi out, then you leave Huber and Rebernig at home, sit 5 top players and also Leon Wallner. Every 5-man line had at least 2 players who just don't do this hockey thing too well...

 

[BalticWarrior]

Eishockey.at - Livescores
Lol...

5-1, 40-16.

We don't need two of our best 2-way forwards...we can afford to leave them at home for petty reasons...

We sat 5 this game, they sat 5. The 5 coming back are not going to make a big enough of a difference. Especially with Rossi out, then you leave Huber and Rebernig at home, sit 5 top players and also Leon Wallner. Every 5-man line had at least 2 players who just don't do this hockey thing too well...

You must be masochist if you are an Austrian fan, it seems. I genuinley feel bad for you because you always contribute such well thought out posts.

 

[kabidjan18]

You must be masochist if you are an Austrian fan, it seems. I genuinley feel bad for you because you always contribute such well thought out posts.

Full time heartbreak haha

I think it's just sadder this year because the expectations were higher, and rightfully so, I mean "golden generation" or whatever. There are a lot of good players. Like it's scary. This should have been a "good team." Baumgartner is considered a star prospect in Switzerland, Marco Rossi is a potential 1st rounder for next season. Maier is a draft watch player. Payr is one of the top U20 Dmen in the NLA. I could go on. On paper, we can match up. But it happens every year, and the players always see me getting excited and they're like "don't get excited, trust us, the Fed is going to screw something up." And they're right.

The entire coaching staff is from Carinthia, even the equipment manager. The Carinthia contingent is a real brotherhood, and there are a lot of great guys from there, both as awesome men and as good hockey players. However, others are just good men and not good hockey players. Every team has drama, but we don't have depth. If Germany can't have Moritz Seider, they bring in Alexander Dersch. If no Justin Schutz, then bring in JJ Peterka. For Belarus, no Kolyachonok, just bring in Deryabin or Gabrus. If we have preferential treatment, or a flawed player selection ideology, we drop a good player and get a player who is, no nice way to put this, not in any way equipped to play at this level at all and ever. Nothing will kill you faster than that.

 

[ozo]

Supporting any of the lesser hockey nations goes against common sense. It just isn't good for ones mental health.

 

[sturmthis]

Moritz Seider practiced today with the German U-20 team after missing time with a shoulder injury.

 

[kabidjan18]

So the cuts are out. 8 dmen and 12 forwards, which is surprising because 2 forwards are hurt so we might not even have 4 lines...

Cuts are.

Luis Lindner: To be expected. He's a recent forward-turned-defensemen so coaches love his ability to go coast to coast, but he gives the puck away way too much in the neutral zone and the defensive zone and just generally speaking isn't a great defender.

Felix Vonbun: Awesome guy. Hard-worker and very conscientious about everything to do with hockey. Doesn't have the tools though that other players have, so this is not a surprise.

Kai Fassler: Only good for playing at the front of the net.

Marcel Judth: Surprising cut considering he comes from Carinthia, but he's someone who no one felt should have been in the player pool to begin with. 6th scorer on his U20 club team, which plays in the EBYSL, so they are weaker than the KAC team in the Alps, which is in turn weaker than the Salzburg club that beats the crap out of them every time they meet, and also the Swiss clubs and foreign clubs. Limited to ancillary roles in his loan stints to KAC. Played poorly in Vojens. He puts in good effort, but when it comes down to it he's a forechecker who can occasionally pull a dangle or two. He's not as good a forechecker or even a dangler as many players left off the team. He's not even a good skater, very average at that. If he wasn't from VSV, if he wasn't a Carinthian, he would have never gotten a second look.

Fabio Artner: This one hurts. He has a long and complicated history with the federation, and as a player he has many legitimate problems like being a low-energy athlete and being awful defensively. However, he's a top 5 skater and probably the 2nd best hands on the team. His offensive stats speak for themselves, he has problems but we simply don't have enough offensive options and to cut him as well drastically limits where offense might originate from. There was a better argument, in my opinion, for him to be a top 6 forward than off the team...

 

[KahunWOW]

Looks like Stützle is out for Germany. At least his team Jungadler Mannheim didn´t include him in the list of players they are sending to the tournament.

 

[sturmthis]

Tim Stützle is out with an upper body injury. Final 23 man roster named.
U20-WM Div. I: Künast beruft 23 Spieler in den finalen WM-Kader | Deutscher Eishockey-Bund e.V.
Germany U20 at eliteprospects.com

 

[su24]

Latvia has 6 guys born in 2001 and a couple guys in 2002. Should be the youngest team. Looks like they just gave up on any hopes to win. Losing to those kids would be shameful for Belarus or Germany.
Latvia U20 at eliteprospects.com

 

[su24]

Belarus just announced their roster as well. I'm really surprised they cut off Shkrabov (Yermenkov was expected). Only 2 defensemen from the Extraleague U20 team (Savritsky and Solovyov), 4 from CHL/USHL and one from Yunost -- Vadim Shchyochin, who's never played at any WJC before (as well as Zuyev). Gabrus is also on the team, but he's listed as forward.
On offence they sent home Krylovich, Masilevich, (wtf) Pyshkaylo and (wtf) Skorenov. Pyshaylo and Skorenov are the top-2 scorers on the Belarus U20 in Extraleague.
Considering they also didn't even take a look at Dmitri Kot, Vladislav Barkovsky (both are regulars for the top team in the country Yunost), Ilya Kazyanin (probably a top-3 talent in the country born in 2000), this coaching stuff has made a lot of questionable decisions.

Notice to the upcoming generations: don't become the best scorer on the Extraleague U20 team, they won't take you to WJC.

 

[Pardus]

Latvia has 6 guys born in 2001 and a couple guys in 2002. Should be the youngest team.

Four of them are 2020 draft eligible: Gustavs Millers, Kristaps Skrastiņš, Raivis Kristiāns Ansons and Harijs Brants.

 

[ozo]

Latvia has 6 guys born in 2001 and a couple guys in 2002. Should be the youngest team. Looks like they just gave up on any hopes to win. Losing to those kids would be shameful for Belarus or Germany.
Latvia U20 at eliteprospects.com

Ouch

 

[Pardus]

Is Kristaps Skrastiņš related to Kārlis Skrastiņš (RIP)?

 

[Namejs]

Love the heated discussions.

I'm late to the party, but I do want to make a couple of points.

Belarus is taking the route we took 5-7 years ago. We had a massive amount of prospects moving to North America - CHL, USHL, NAHL. It was the place to be, if you were a top tier prospect.

While that might seem like a great development at first, it actually comes with a number of caveats, as we have found out the hard way.

European prospects typically develop transitioning to pro hockey while they're teenagers. The CHL/USHL is a trap. If you're good, but not good enough, you're going to stay there, playing against juniors at the age of 20, having lost at least a couple of years of your career without any major progress to your game.

These sort of not-quite-NHL-tier prospects are stuck in limbo as an effect and tend to plateau quite badly. A lot of them are going to be stuck in ECHL, or they're going to be average AHL scrubs.

Having so many Belarusians in the CHL can be a good thing for Belarusian hockey, they will be exposed to new ideas and a different approach to the game, and they will bring it all back to their home country, but it's not necessarily going to substantially improve the quality of their national team. In fact, they can waste all that talent and all they're going to have is a bunch of overaged juniors not ready for major pro hockey.

Making the CHL is by no means an achievement on its own. It's just a matter of having an agent and a half-decent prospect.

But, yes, feel free to teach us how to run our hockey program.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Love the heated discussions.

I'm late to the party, but I do want to make a couple of points.

Belarus is taking the route we took 5-7 years ago. We had a massive amount of prospects moving to North America - CHL, USHL, NAHL. It was the place to be, if you were a top tier prospect.

While that might seem like a great development at first, it actually comes with a number of caveats, as we have found out the hard way.

European prospects typically develop transitioning to pro hockey while they're teenagers. The CHL/USHL is a trap. If you're good, but not good enough, you're going to stay there, playing against juniors at the age of 20, having lost at least a couple of years of your career without any major progress to your game.

These sort of not-quite-NHL-tier prospects are stuck in limbo as an effect and tend to plateau quite badly. A lot of them are going to be stuck in ECHL, or they're going to be average AHL scrubs.

Having so many Belarusians in the CHL can be a good thing for Belarusian hockey, they will be exposed to new ideas and a different approach to the game, and they will bring it all back to their home country, but it's not necessarily going to substantially improve the quality of their national team. In fact, they can waste all that talent and all they're going to have is a bunch of overaged juniors not ready for major pro hockey.

Making the CHL is by no means an achievement on its own. It's just a matter of having an agent and a half-decent prospect.

But, yes, feel free to teach us how to run our hockey program.

Theoretically speaking, you are right. It's easy to get lost in North America, just look at how many Russian talented players ended up badly when playing there. Or better, after playing there. Playing in Europe may also mean to have a chance to play in the KHL. Sharangovich has certainly gained good experience in the KHL, and now is looking decent in the AHL (I think another year in the K wouldn't have hurt him at all though).
Problem is that the KHL is a complicated league. Even if it's not the NHL, the level is very high, and being a pro league it's very result-oriented. There's nothing wrong on that, of course, but it also means that if you're young and you have a mistake, well, you're out. Also, at 19 or 20, you need to play to improve. It's hard to improve playing two minutes a night. Now, if it's eight minutes, maybe it's not a lot, but it's already much better.
I agree that having many Belarus players in the CHL at this moment can be good. As you said, new ideas, a different approach, and some valuable ice time. But history and tradition show that the best route is to play at home until you're ready. This works in a much superior percentage, sending many players to the CHL can be a move initially looking good, but with a nasty end.
I also hope that sending many players overseas is just not an easy way for chinovniks ("bureaucrats" for the ones of you who don't understand Russian) to have a good excuse to hide behind if/once the results are bad.

 

[Namejs]

Theoretically speaking, you are right. It's easy to get lost in North America, just look at how many Russian talented players ended up badly when playing there. Or better, after playing there. Playing in Europe may also mean to have a chance to play in the KHL. Sharangovich has certainly gained good experience in the KHL, and now is looking decent in the AHL (I think another year in the K wouldn't have hurt him at all though).
Problem is that the KHL is a complicated league. Even if it's not the NHL, the level is very high, and being a pro league it's very result-oriented. There's nothing wrong on that, of course, but it also means that if you're young and you have a mistake, well, you're out. Also, at 19 or 20, you need to play to improve. It's hard to improve playing two minutes a night. Now, if it's eight minutes, maybe it's not a lot, but it's already much better.
I agree that having many Belarus players in the CHL at this moment can be good. As you said, new ideas, a different approach, and some valuable ice time. But history and tradition show that the best route is to play at home until you're ready. This works in a much superior percentage, sending many players to the CHL can be a move initially looking good, but with a nasty end.
I also hope that sending many players overseas is just not an easy way for chinovniks ("bureaucrats" for the ones of you who don't understand Russian) to have a good excuse to hide behind if/once the results are bad.

When I said 'Europe', I didn't have the KHL in mind. When you're a good Swiss prospect playing in the juniors at 17/18/19 years of age, you get called up to your NLB or NLA side for a few games. When you're a Swedish kid, you get called up to Allsvenskan or SHL, etc. You get used to playing against grown men. CHL imports get used to playing against kids. That's definitely a thing to avoid, especially if you're a somewhat under-sized forward.

 

[su24]

LOL. People don't address the noticed fact that all the best Latvian players at the last WHC went through the North American development system. Top-3 scorers: Abols, Balcers, Dzerins. Well, except Indrasis, who was developing in Belarus leagues. They even call up an ECHL defenseman (Rubins) instead of their great KHL guys. Now they post the nonsense that sending kids to CHL was harmful for Latvian hockey and they "have found out the hard way". LOL again.

 

[ozo]

LOL. People don't address the noticed fact that all the best Latvian players at the last WHC went through the North American development system. Top-3 scorers: Abols, Balcers, Dzerins. Well, except Indrasis, who was developing in Belarus leagues. They even call up an ECHL defenseman (Rubins) instead of their great KHL guys. Now they post the nonsense that sending kids to CHL was harmful for Latvian hockey and they "have found out the hard way". LOL again.

I think Namejs meant that CHL is harmful if the aim is becoming high level or even NHL pro as soon as possible and he probably is right. Nobody is saying that your currrent crop prospects will end their careers in couple of years, but they might never reach their potential ceiling.

 

[su24]

I think Namejs meant that CHL is harmful if the aim is becoming high level or even NHL pro as soon as possible and he probably is right. Nobody is saying that your currrent crop prospects will end their careers in couple of years, but they might never reach their potential ceiling.

Yeah, and I see how helpful is MHL/KHL development system for Latvian hockey. Jeez, do you know what logic means in Latvia? Your national team completely relies on CHL products, but you say that sending kids to the CHL/USHL/NAHL was a wrong idea and no one can express opinion about your current direction. You can't say that some busted kids would have become a great players if they stayed in MHL/KHL. You cant's say that sending kids to the CHL in bunches was a bad design just because some of them busted.
No one gives a damn about your hockey program and do whatever you want, but at least operate with facts.

 

[Namejs]

LOL. People don't address the noticed fact that all the best Latvian players at the last WHC went through the North American development system. Top-3 scorers: Abols, Balcers, Dzerins. Well, except Indrasis, who was developing in Belarus leagues. They even call up an ECHL defenseman (Rubins) instead of their great KHL guys. Now they post the nonsense that sending kids to CHL was harmful for Latvian hockey and they "have found out the hard way". LOL again.

Balcers played pro hockey in Norway when he was already 17. He moved to North America at 19 and got signed next year. Abols also moved to North America when he was 19/20, gave it a shot and moved back to Sweden when he didn't land an NHL contract. They both had pro experience before.

There's nothing wrong with playing in North America. It just comes with a number of caveats, as I already explained before.

 

[ozo]

Yeah, and I see how helpful is MHL/KHL development system for Latvian hockey. Jeez, do you know what logic means in Latvia? Your national team completely relies on CHL products, but you say that sending kids to the CHL/USHL/NAHL was a wrong idea and no one can express opinion about your current direction. You can't say that some busted kids would have become a great players if they stayed in MHL/KHL. You cant's say that sending kids to the CHL in bunches was a bad design just because some of them busted.
No one gives a damn about your hockey program and do whatever you want, but at least operate with facts.

The only fact here is your complete lack of reading comprehension. Not single time I have mentioned Latvian system (like there even was such a thing haha) or MHL/KHL pyramid. You act like I am crapping on CHL and repping up something else instead. All I am saying is that we need to cautios about predicting the future of players chosing NA route. Period.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

When I said 'Europe', I didn't have the KHL in mind.

yeah, I got it, but Belarus and Latvia have clubs in the KHL. Most of Swiss players definitely need to stay in Switzerland too (IMHO). Watch at Axel Simic before and after his year in the CHL for example. We'll see what will happen with Kurashev and Nando. I wasn't a fan of Nando moving to junior hockey after two years of pro hockey, so we'll see what will be with him. The move didn't apparently hurt Balcers, but Balcers had more talent to start with, not to talk that the Norwegian league isn't really on par with the National League.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Well, except Indrasis, who was developing in Belarus leagues.

I don't know Indrasis' career in memory and I'm right now too lazy to look up at Eliteprospects, but I'd argue that he more or less played the same amount of games in Belarus and in the MHL. If he played more games in Belarus, I'm sure the difference is not significant.

 

[Namejs]

yeah, I got it, but Belarus and Latvia have clubs in the KHL. Most of Swiss players definitely need to stay in Switzerland too (IMHO). Watch at Axel Simic before and after his year in the CHL for example. We'll see what will happen with Kurashev and Nando. I wasn't a fan of Nando moving to junior hockey after two years of pro hockey, so we'll see what will be with him. The move didn't apparently hurt Balcers, but Balcers had more talent to start with, not to talk that the Norwegian league isn't really on par with the National League.

Sure, but Belarus has a pro league of its own, while Latvia is a part of the EU job market, which means loads of Latvian youngsters can join any European hockey team with no restrictions. It's got little to do with the KHL.

 

[SoundAndFury]

So looks like no Mathias Emilio Pettersen for Norway, no Texier for France, no Marco Rossi for Austria, no Stutzle for Germany.. That is just sad.