obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
Yes it would. Just don't know if they would have enough to trade for Trouba after losing the 1st round picks for Point. Not sure someone like AA or Mantha is enough as the lead piece in a deal.
Speculation: 2019 UFA targets
- Thread starter Voodoo Glow Skulls
- Start date
Yes it would. Just don't know if they would have enough to trade for Trouba after losing the 1st round picks for Point. Not sure someone like AA or Mantha is enough as the lead piece in a deal.
Shaman464
No u
Remember Toronto before they got Matthews, Marner and Nylander? That's the team you just built.
Steve Yzerlland
Registered User
- Jul 18, 2018
- 8,126
- 3,991
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
You honestly think the following two groups are even remotely comparable talent/potential/star power wise?
2015-2016 Leafs Top Forwards (and their career highs in points)
Name Kadri
James Van Riemsdyk
PA Parenteau
Leo Komarov
Tyler Bozak
Peter Holland
Hypothetical Wings Lineup
Jack Hughes
Brayden Point
Dylan Larkin
Filip Zadina
Anthony Mantha
Andrea Athanasiou
The latter group is more like the current Toronto group actually.
Shaman464
No u
No, its not. Points/Larkin are no where near Tavares/Matthews. Point is having a great season, but he's playing with a guy who is having a historic season. And I would compare that team more to the 10-14 Leafs teams, which is the period before they drafted Nylander (someone I specifically named, for a reason). Some good pieces, but paper thin in key areas, like defense, and mortgaging future pieces trying to compete too quickly.
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
Again, the 2o12 Leafs (just randomly picked one of the seasons you mentioned as an example) had Phil Kessel, Nazem Kadri, JVR, Tyler Bozak, Nikolay Kulemin, and Clarke McArthur as their top forwards.
You're absolutely delusional if you think that roster is comparable talent wise/potential wise/production wise to Hughes (#1 overall pick), Point (95 point player), Zadina (#6 overall pick), Larkin (point per game center), Mantha, AA, Bert
Not to mention the age and potential/growth differences between the rosters. Leafs ages: 27, 26, 26, 24, 23, 21 , Wings ages (next year) 25, 25, 24, 23, 23, 20, 18.
Shaman464
No u
Point is a 95 point player in a year where he's playing with a player having a season that might be the best in a generation. In a year where scoring is up 15% compared to the period you're talking about. There is no reason to believe he comes to Detroit and scores nearly 100 points, and a lot of reason to believe that wouldn't be the case. Next, you likely didn't pick that season at random, but picked the year with the worst stats of any period in those years. But, the point is, that other than 2 players having career years, and one of them with all the indicators of over performing his talent, you're left with 3 players that are analogus to wingers on those Toronto teams (AA, Mantha, Bert), a hypothetical first round pick that may or may not play center in the NHL (there are still questions), and a winger that may not make the NHL out of camp (I am hopeful Zadina will but who knows?).
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
1) Actually, I literally just chose the season in the exact middle of the timeframe you mentioned, but thanks for calling me a liar. Ok. Here's 2010 and 2014, the 1st and last season in your timeframe:
Phil Kessel
Clarke McArthur
Mikhail Grabovski
Nikolay Kulemin
Kris Versteeg
Tyler Bozak
Colby Armstrong
Phil Kessel
JVR
Tyler Bozak
Nazem Kadri
Mike Santorelli
Leo Komorov
Peter Holland
Are either of those groups really any better/more talented than the expected potential of the Red Wings group? Hell no. If a group of Larkin, Hughes, Point, Zadina, Mantha, AA, Bert don't have significantly better collective careers than the Leafs group....well, the Red Wings have a hell of a lot more problems with their rebuild than trading a couple first round picks for Point and the rebuild was doomed to fail anyways.
2) Why do you assume the worst for Zadina and Hughes, but at the same time assume the Wings would regret trading their other other top draft picks for a known quantity in Point? Their 2020 1st round pick may or may not suck and may or may not even be a top 10 pick, and their 2021 1st round pick may or may not suck and may or may not even be a top 10 pick. If both picks suck (lot's of questions like you pointed out!) wouldn't you rather have Point? Two can play that game assuming the best for your scenario and assuming the worst for the other scenario.
Shaman464
No u
1) The Wings group at current is far worse, that Leafs group was a bubble team. With Hughes and Point, the Wings are, at best, a bubble team.
2)No, I wouldn't rather have Point. If you can't see that the red flags around him not being a nearly a 100 point a year center, then we won't be able to agree. He's playing as a second line center (so not seeing top pairings nearly as often as the Stamkos line) and is playing with Kucherov, who is having the best season since Lemieux and Jagr in the 90s.
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
We're talking about future potential here, all these players are still young. No one is saying the Wings would be cup contenders next year. The point is, no one reasonably expected at any point in time that a forward group built around Clarke McArthur and Mikhael Grabovski could compete for a Stanley Cup. A forward group built around players like Hughes, Zadina, Larkin, and Point at least has that potential given their draft status/expected potential (Zadina, Hughes) and current level of play in the NHL (Larkin, Point). If the Wings aren't building/drafting their team during the rebuild for their future potential than what the hell are they doing?
If you don't think Point is worth a couple 1st round picks in a vacuum that's one thing. If you think the Wings shouldn't trade a couple 1st round picks for a young star center under team control for 5+ more years (whoever that may be in your eyes, if it's not Point, let's say Eichel) because "its not the right time to do so in the rebuild" or whatever BS, then you are out to lunch.
Shaman464
No u
You're not talking about a couple first round picks in a vacuum. You seem to have a severe problem understanding the world doesn't exist in a vacuum. So here's all the problems with your idea:
1. Point is very likely to regress when not playing a player having the best individual season since Jagr and Lemieux were dominating the NHL.
2. With that being the likely case, paying him 9-10 million for playing a player that likely is on the same tier as Larkin is bad precedence. It also sets him up for almost certain failure.
3. The 2020 draft is supposed to be very deep on high end talent. 2021 is also looking to be a deep draft. There is a major opportunity cost involved in this, especially when the player returned is going to be overpaid by definition, and unlikely to live up to that contract.
4. Even with Point the team is still likely to miss the playoff over the next 2 years. Giving Tampa, a team that will contend without Point, 2 potential lottery picks. 2 players that will be potentially high end and under ELC team control will go a long way to solving their cap hell.
5. When it comes time to resign hypothetical Hughes, even if "busts" and is only ppg he will expect to make at least as much as Point. This is how cap hell happens. Bad contracts beget bad contracts.
And that's just my top 5 problems, there are more.
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
1) Of course he's going to regress point wise not playing with Kucherov. There are like 3 players in the league who can consistently put up 100 point seasons. Don't care, given that he plays center and is very good defensively, he's still a star even if he's "only" an 80 point player.
3) Projecting drafts 2-3 years down the road is never a good idea. We don't even know what pick we will have, let alone how players will regress or progress in that time frame.
4) I don't agree with that. It depends on Zadina and whoever the Wings pick in the top 3-5 this year. If they bust, sure, the Wings miss the playoffs and are back to square one anyways. If Hughes and Zadina are what people thought they were at draft time, no reason this team shouldn't be a bubble team.
5) If Hughes busts, the Wings aren't going to want to re-sign him. Using your logic, we should never sign a player to a big contract then because any other player on the team will want the same (or better) contract? Yeah, that's not how it works.
6) You're just negative about everything. You should find a new team to root for. If you don't think Hughes (or whoever they pick) and Z are going to work out this team is screwed either way. If you do think they are going to work out, there's no reason the Wings shouldn't consider adding another young star center to the roster to complete the forward group, whether that's Point (who you don't like) or another young star center (who you do like).
Shaman464
No u
1) In the magical world you live in that's all well and good and you can play less than ppg centers the money that franchise centers get. In the cap world you don't overpay a player by that much, its setting them up for failure.
2)I guess you shouldn't be on this board then, because people are projecting 5+ years out. But, 1-2 years out, while final player selection its hard to nail down, overall talent analysis tends to be pretty spot on.
3)There's a great reason why this team wouldn't be a bubble team. Its a defense where the best players are mediocre. Add to that Howard is a sinking ship, the team will be getting bombarded.
4)I put "bust" in quotation marks to mean that he'd still be an effective NHL player, but, not a franchise center that people hope he will be. Its entirely possible he ends up as a top line winger, or a 2nd line center. He's a very very promising prospect, but the biggest question around him is if he can actual center a top line. If he can, he will be a franchise player. If he can't well I am sure people on this board will be yelling "bust"
5) And you're delusionally positive and pie in the sky. You should write fan fiction hockey seasons instead of watching hockey. Anyone can throw shade. But, I can be any type of fan I want to be. And I am going to bet I have been a fan longer, and likely have better reasons to be a fan than you do. And there are many reasons not to consider using an offersheet to add that center. Offersheets are horrible ideas on average because they require doing the two things a team shouldn't do in the cap era: Overpay a player, and give up multiple high draft picks. If you want Point, its better to try to trade for him, or to wait for him to reach free agency. Offersheets are the worst of both those options.
Unfriendly Ghost
Kasper
I can't believe people actually want to 4 first round picks offer sheet Point. Which is what it'll take to get him to sign.
Shaman464
No u
And severely overpay him compared to what his abilities will be in Detroit. Offer sheets are designed to be a bad idea.
RedHawkDown
still trying to trust the yzerplan
It seems like nobody here actually watches Point. He is obviously benefiting scoring wise from playing with Kucherov but Kuch also wouldn’t be anywhere near his current pace without Point. The kid is absolutely a top 10 C in this league and is easily Tampa’s best centre, not close.
Henkka
Registered User
obey86
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2009
- 8,013
- 1,274
you've been a fan longer than me and you have better reasons to be a fan than I do? lol, what?
Shaman464
No u
You told me I shouldn’t be a fan. Well, you’re not the gatekeeper for who is and isn’t allowed to be a fan. You have no idea why I’m a fan, but I’ll tell you why. I’m from a shit neighborhood in Detroit. Hockey was a huge part of my childhood. It got even bigger when a cousin of mine who was closer to a sister than a cousin was diagnosed with leukemia. The red wings organization as part of their community outreach set up a family meet and greet with Yzerman. We all got to meet him. Those of us who could skate skated with him. It was one of the happiest moments of my cousins life. She died less than a year after that, and was buried in her game worn Yzerman Jersey. I love the red wings. I dislike choices the management have made, but that doesn’t mean I don’t love the team.
The Zermanator
In Yzerman We Trust
- Jan 21, 2013
- 3,387
- 1,185
I don't think it's just Point benefitting from Kucherov, that swings both ways. Tampa's gonna have a problem matching even the top compensation allowed in the two 1st rd pick range, so I don't think giving up 4 will be necessary. And two 1st rounders is definitely a bargain when you're getting a sure thing back.
You're never going to have a situation where every contract on your team is perfect. But we've been overpaying mediocrity, and in some cases incompetence, for years. Instead of paying an extra million or two to guys like Nielsen/Abby/Helm/etc, or even outright replacing those types with $1-2M players who perform just as well for next to nothing, throw those extra millions at the players who will make a difference.
Would I prefer Point at $8M? Sure. But given the choice between Point in a Lightning jersey at 8.5M and in a Wings jersey at 9.75M, I take the second option. It's not ideal, but making the cap work around star players isn't the worst problem to have in this league. If he'll sign for an amount within the two 1st rd pick range, I say sign him and let Tampa decide.
You're never going to have a situation where every contract on your team is perfect. But we've been overpaying mediocrity, and in some cases incompetence, for years. Instead of paying an extra million or two to guys like Nielsen/Abby/Helm/etc, or even outright replacing those types with $1-2M players who perform just as well for next to nothing, throw those extra millions at the players who will make a difference.
Would I prefer Point at $8M? Sure. But given the choice between Point in a Lightning jersey at 8.5M and in a Wings jersey at 9.75M, I take the second option. It's not ideal, but making the cap work around star players isn't the worst problem to have in this league. If he'll sign for an amount within the two 1st rd pick range, I say sign him and let Tampa decide.
That's true, but they may have enough as far as other young players who can be included. We just had a really good draft, toss in Berggren or McIsaac for example.
PullHard
☂
- Jul 18, 2007
- 28,390
- 2,464
DatsyukToZetterberg
Alligator!
I think I'd happily do that. Maybe even up to 7 or 7.5M if it was shorter term, he'd be our best defenceman by far. I do wonder if Green's injury turns out to be more serious than we really know if management would be more willing to go out and make a move for a Gardiner or Trouba type dman, perhaps make a run at Karlsson too. My preference is towards Karlsson/Gardiner though as he is a FA and wouldn't cost anything in terms of assets.
In terms of the Point debate, I don't think it makes sense for us to create an offer sheet that involves 4 1st round picks, though he's certainly worth 4 mid round 1sts, but I'm not sure if we were to just add him if we would move up enough to get out of the bottom 5. At this point I think Point's "value" is likely around the 1st overall pick in the draft, he's been a top 10C this year and is not just a passenger on the Kuch train. I think the decision to offer sheet Point or not is really based on what happens at the draft and FA. If we were to get Hughes, sign Gardiner, and re-sign Howard then we are likely good enough with the addition of Point to be better than a bottom 10 team. It would then make some sense to send an offer sheet that would fall into 2 1sts, a 2nd, and a 3rd range; the max a 5 year deal could be would be 10.14M and the max a 6 year deal could be would be 8.45M.
We would be able to fit a dman/Point/Goalie in with our cap space this summer if we were to go that route but it really all depends on how the draft falls. If we get Jack Hughes it really opens the door to being aggressive with our prospect/pick capital and our cap space.
I think the team most likely to offer sheet Point would be the Flyers, they have the young dcore, capspace, and forward prospects that would allow for them to easily absorb the loss of the picks required to offersheet Point.
19 for president
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2002
- 2,860
- 1,009
If the Wings land Hughes at the draft I do the following.
Offersheet Trouba
Sign Panarin (I mean if Hughes is most compared to Kane, who did Bread have amazing chemistry with)
Bert-Larkin-Mantha
Hughes-Nielson-Panarin
Ras-Glenny-Zadina
Abby-Helm-Svech
De La Rose
Trouba-Dekeyser
Green-Daley
Hronek-Ericsson
Cholo is the first call up and takes over once one of E or Daley is dealt.
I'd be leary of offer sheeting Point after one really amazing season with Kucherov burning the world down on his line.
Offersheet Trouba
Sign Panarin (I mean if Hughes is most compared to Kane, who did Bread have amazing chemistry with)
Bert-Larkin-Mantha
Hughes-Nielson-Panarin
Ras-Glenny-Zadina
Abby-Helm-Svech
De La Rose
Trouba-Dekeyser
Green-Daley
Hronek-Ericsson
Cholo is the first call up and takes over once one of E or Daley is dealt.
I'd be leary of offer sheeting Point after one really amazing season with Kucherov burning the world down on his line.
Henkka
Registered User
Quite sure Cholo plays 82 games, when one of Green/Daley/Ericsson are all the time injured.
Ad
Upcoming events
-
-
-
Skelleftea AIK @ Frolunda HC - Skelleftea leads series 3-2Wagers: 3Staked: $95.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
TO ADVANCE Barcelona vs Paris St-Germain - 2nd leg. 1st leg result: Barcelona 3-2 - CBSWagers: 1Staked: $250.00Event closes- Updated: