GDT: 2019 Trade Deadline: Part Two/ The Wrath of Holland

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

What is Helm supposed to be doing differently for you?

Ideally something that makes him $2 million more valuable than Glendening.

He's never had the hands of someone like Bertuzzi but he he used to play in a similar style in the rest of his game. Always involved in the play, hitting, being a puckhound. Now he's not particularly fast, he doesn't seem to have the hunger for the puck. He doesn't take/is bad at faceoffs.

It's not his fault Holland overpaid him, but he's also just not the player he used to be. To use a cliche phrase, his compete level is gone.

 

[jkutswings]

ESPN graded the TDL results for all 31 teams:

2019 trade deadline grades for all 31 NHL teams

Detroit Red Wings: B

Key additions: Conditional 2019 second-round pick from San Jose, 2020 second-round pick from Washington, conditional 2020 third-round pick from San Jose, D Madison Bowey

Key subtractions: F Gustav Nyquist, D Nick Jensen

Not a bad haul for GM Ken Holland in dealing away two expiring contracts, especially if the Sharks make the Stanley Cup Final or re-sign Nyquist and that third becomes a second. Bowey has to prove he's an NHL regular, but not a bad addition for Jensen. Holland didn't get a fleece job like that Tomas Tatar deal last deadline, but given the market and the assets, this wasn't terrible. Well, except the part where he gave 10 players on his roster trade protection (including Nyquist and, hilariously, Thomas Vanek), which meant his options were extremely limited.

 

[SirloinUB]

That's a Generous grade in my opinion. I'd say a C is more fair. I think he did the bare minimum to get a passing grade but neither trade returned anything to warrant a better grade.

 

[TCNorthstars]

That's a Generous grade in my opinion. I'd say a C is more fair. I think he did the bare minimum to get a passing grade but neither trade returned anything to warrant a better grade.

I don't know. 90% of the board wanted to give Jensen away for a late 3rd or worse!

 

[SirloinUB]

I don't know. 90% of the board wanted to give Jensen away for a late 3rd or worse!

If you consider Jensen to be the top rental dman moved/available I'd say a 2nd and Bowey is an okay return. In all likelihood it will be a late 2nd and not until 2020. Also keep in mind Holland's ask was a 2nd. He got that but certainly didn't exceed expectations here.

It was a solid move and I'm happy he pulled the trigger but I don't think it was enough to bump the grade to a B especially after that Nyquist deal.

Like I said, he passed but neither of these moves returned enough to earn a B (80-90%) grade.

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

He got a good return for Jensen, I'd call it a B+ trade. I would have been satisfied with a 3rd for him. To be fair I never really liked him and think he is over performing this year. Time will prove me right or wrong.

I think the return on Nyquist is a C as it stands, if conditions are met on the 3rd I'll bump it to a C+.
So I agree with the over all B grade. Not the best TDL ever but still a decent one.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

If you consider Jensen to be the top rental dman moved/available I'd say a 2nd is an okay return. In all likelihood it will be a late 2nd and not until 2020.

It was a solid move and I'm happy he pulled the trigger but I don't think it was enough to bump the grade to a B especially after that Nyquist deal.

Given how little Simmonds brought I can't fault him too much for Nyquist's return.

Though if you factor in the NTC's for Gus and Vanek that made them difficult/impossible to move, then I think that knocks him down to a B- at least.

 

[Larkin1578]

Definitely a C-

 

[SirloinUB]

Given how little Simmonds brought I can't fault him too much for Nyquist's return.

Though if you factor in the NTC's for Gus and Vanek that made them difficult/impossible to move, then I think that knocks him down to a B- at least.

Holland made a couple of moves at market value. To me that is closer to the bare minimum rather than exceeding expectations and deserving an above average grade.

For the record, my breakdown would be something like this:

A: Greatly exceeded expecations
B: Met or slightly exceeded expectatons
C: Passed, slightly disappointing return
D: Very disappointing returns
F: No moves.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

My breakdown would be something like this:

A: Greatly exceeded expecations
B: Met or slightly exceeded expectatons
C: Passed, slightly disappointing return
D: Very disappointing returns
F: No moves.

Holland made a couple of moves at market value. To me that is closer to the bare minimum rather than exceeding expectations and deserving an above average grade.

That makes sense. By that metric he deserves a C.

I guess my expectations for him are low enough at this point I expected to be more disappointed so am grading on a curve.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Given how little Simmonds brought I can't fault him too much for Nyquist's return.

Though if you factor in the NTC's for Gus and Vanek that made them difficult/impossible to move, then I think that knocks him down to a B- at least.

Shouldn't the grade go up if you get potentially 2 2nds out of a player with a full NTC?

 

[TCNorthstars]

Holland made a couple of moves at market value. To me that is closer to the bare minimum rather than exceeding expectations and deserving an above average grade.

For the record, my breakdown would be something like this:

A: Greatly exceeded expecations
B: Met or slightly exceeded expectatons
C: Passed, slightly disappointing return
D: Very disappointing returns
F: No moves.

Who would you say got A's and B's from your rating system?

 

[SirloinUB]

Who would you say got A's and B's from your rating system?

To be fair, I don't follow the other teams in the same way I do Detroit so grading them relative to expectations is a little more difficult. At any rate I thought San Jose, Nashville, Dallas, NYR, Washington, Vegas and Ottawa all had strong trade deadlines. To a lesser extent I like Colorado's move. Hell even Jersey got similar returns on their rentals as we did and they moved lesser players.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Shouldn't the grade go up if you get potentially 2 2nds out of a player with a full NTC?

Not when you're the one who handed out the full NTC that didn't go modified before the deadline.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Not when you're the one who handed out the full NTC that didn't go modified before the deadline.

He has already said the NTC didn't impact the deal though, so we don't need to keep bringing that up.

Nyquist returned what his value really was. I mean the Flyers waited on Simmonds and didn't really land that much more though as a fan of Hartman I feel a little differently than some of the consensus on that one. Still MoJo, Simmonds, Zucc all basically have similar returns to Nyquist... I mean I get being disappointed but I think what we are more disappointed with is what the selling market was this year and I don't think Holland had any control over that.

My only worry was he went too early, but given what we watched unfold it is hard to see where Nyquist's return was going up. Second and fourth seemed to be the rate of return at the death, Zucc has better stipulations but honestly ones I don't really expect. We have a second if Nyquist re-signs or the Sharks make the cup. Both of those are honestly probably bigger options than the Dallas trade, so again I am not seeing something out of line with the market. He got what he could on Nyquist.

I would prefer to just totally turn the page and go big game hunting now in free agency, I am encouraged by Holland changing his method and turning down what I believe were reasonable asks out of both Jensen's and Nyquist's camps.

Holland gets a solid B for me, maybe B- until the conditions are in on his activity this weekend. He could have gotten an A by unloading Daley or Ericsson that was really the next step I wanted, but tough to sell those two guys right now.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

He has already said the NTC didn't impact the deal though, so we don't need to keep bringing that up.

Nyquist returned what his value really was. I mean the Flyers waited on Simmonds and didn't really land that much more though as a fan of Hartman I feel a little differently than some of the consensus on that one. Still MoJo, Simmonds, Zucc all basically have similar returns to Nyquist... I mean I get being disappointed but I think what we are more disappointed with is what the selling market was this year and I don't think Holland had any control over that.

My only worry was he went too early, but given what we watched unfold it is hard to see where Nyquist's return was going up. Second and fourth seemed to be the rate of return at the death, Zucc has better stipulations but honestly ones I don't really expect. We have a second if Nyquist re-signs or the Sharks make the cup. Both of those are honestly probably bigger options than the Dallas trade, so again I am not seeing something out of line with the market. He got what he could on Nyquist.

I would prefer to just totally turn the page and go big game hunting now in free agency, I am encouraged by Holland changing his method and turning down what I believe were reasonable asks out of both Jensen's and Nyquist's camps.

Holland gets a solid B for me, maybe B- until the conditions are in on his activity this weekend. He could have gotten an A by unloading Daley or Ericsson that was really the next step I wanted, but tough to sell those two guys right now.

I brought it up because I was responding to someone who quoted me that brought up the NTC.

And Holland may have said that but we also know that Nyquist refused one team because of his NTC so saying it didn't impact the deal is obviously false. If a potential trade partner is rejected by the player, the NTC affected the deal.

But I've mentioned Simmonds return in trade in previous posts where I've said I was hoping more from Nyquist but see that as evidence of what the market was.

 

[lomekian]

They are putting their family and lifestyle ahead of hockey. That’s fine, but just call it what it is. This team has a bunch of vets that are not prioritizing the growth of their career anymore.

Hockey players are Humans. Humans don't control their motivations, they don't control the needs of their families, and they don't control their declining physical capacity. I find your take on this a product of unreasonable expectations combined with uninformed negative assumptions - basically you are looking for an excuse to trash players you don't like. Its not as if these players can choose what trade offers come in for them.

Kronwall has won a cup, has a family, wants to be a career wing, has broken every part of himself and 18 months ago looked like he was finished - its remarkable he's been able to be as good for us this season. He's also our most vocal leader, and is universally respected. He gets to call the shots, and he wants to stay.

Ericsson is another whose commitment shouldn't be questioned. He's almost as much of a walking surgery manual as Kronwall. He'd probably be more open to a trade, but who's going to trade for him with that contract.

Helm? Guy can't crash and bang as much as he used to, but its only his salary that disappoints. He's still a good skater, a responsible PK guy, and someone who plays pretty will with everyone despite his obvious limitations. And another who has a seriously long injury history that he keeps coming back from and playing well. Another who's contract will be hard to trade.

Howard? He wants to stay here, we clearly got no decent offers...and for a goalie, who wants to be back up, which is what Howard would be on a contender, particularly joining so late in the season. If there had been as many goalie injuries around the league after Xmas as in some previous years, he would have been traded. Also, his groin has largely held up this year, which suggest some work on his part.

Abby? - You may have a point on this one re work ethic on ice. But we all knew it was bad contract at the time, and so its proved. I hoped his play would hold up for another year or two, but as the league has got quicker his legs have started to go, and bar a decent shot, he was never a skill guy.

 

[lomekian]

If you consider Jensen to be the top rental dman moved/available I'd say a 2nd and Bowey is an okay return. In all likelihood it will be a late 2nd and not until 2020. Also keep in mind Holland's ask was a 2nd. He got that but certainly didn't exceed expectations here.

It was a solid move and I'm happy he pulled the trigger but I don't think it was enough to bump the grade to a B especially after that Nyquist deal.

Like I said, he passed but neither of these moves returned enough to earn a B (80-90%) grade.

Don't disagree with the general thrust, but in what universe is a B 80-90% when you only have A-E or A-F?

 

[obey86]

Hockey players are Humans. Humans don't control their motivations, they don't control the needs of their families, and they don't control their declining physical capacity. I find your take on this a product of unreasonable expectations combined with uninformed negative assumptions - basically you are looking for an excuse to trash players you don't like. Its not as if these players can choose what trade offers come in for them.

Kronwall has won a cup, has a family, wants to be a career wing, has broken every part of himself and 18 months ago looked like he was finished - its remarkable he's been able to be as good for us this season. He's also our most vocal leader, and is universally respected. He gets to call the shots, and he wants to stay.

Ericsson is another whose commitment shouldn't be questioned. He's almost as much of a walking surgery manual as Kronwall. He'd probably be more open to a trade, but who's going to trade for him with that contract.

Helm? Guy can't crash and bang as much as he used to, but its only his salary that disappoints. He's still a good skater, a responsible PK guy, and someone who plays pretty will with everyone despite his obvious limitations. And another who has a seriously long injury history that he keeps coming back from and playing well. Another who's contract will be hard to trade.

Howard? He wants to stay here, we clearly got no decent offers...and for a goalie, who wants to be back up, which is what Howard would be on a contender, particularly joining so late in the season. If there had been as many goalie injuries around the league after Xmas as in some previous years, he would have been traded. Also, his groin has largely held up this year, which suggest some work on his part.

Abby? - You may have a point on this one re work ethic on ice. But we all knew it was bad contract at the time, and so its proved. I hoped his play would hold up for another year or two, but as the league has got quicker his legs have started to go, and bar a decent shot, he was never a skill guy.

I've now seen a few people around here mention that Kronwall has been "good" or whatever this year. What? You guys watching the same player as I am? He's brutal and should not play another NHL game after this year.

 

[jkutswings]

I've now seen a few people around here mention that Kronwall has been "good" or whatever this year. What? You guys watching the same player as I am? He's brutal and should not play another NHL game after this year.

He has had a better year this season than last year, but definitely due to hang them up.

 

[Snuggs]

Why you so offended that a player doesn't want to move to a new team and is exercising his negotiated rights?

Easy, cause I'm loyal to the Red Wings and he cost us potential draft capital or whatever. This remaining season with Vanek means zero to me as a fan. Vanek the player means zero to me as a fan. He's not a native Red Wing like Kronwall.

I'm not complaining to complain, I said it's not a real big deal but kind of a bummer since we had teams that wanted him, but you guys throw up stupid comments like this. Why should I as a fan be mad he wasn't moved? Uh, cause he cost my team either draft capital or a chance with a younger player. I'm not a Thomas Vanek fan, I'm a Red Wings fan, and he's never going to contribute anything that means something(to me). He's not a wise old veteran, he's a dude collecting a pay-check trying hard not to get injuried for next season. How many more weeks in the season anyways? Whatever they are they don't mean much with Vanek on or off the team. So when he specfically decides he rather stay a loser, and not let us get anything for him, yeah I get upset slightly, even if it's just for a 7th rounder.

Good for him as a person. I hope he's comfortable, it's essentailly now at the organization expense. It was and is he right to decide if he wanted to be moved or not, I'm still aloud to be upset with his choice, more-so imo, that it cost us future draft capital or a young(er) prospect/player.

It's not a huge deal but now, for sure, we see the cost of what a NTC does when signing 1 year players. Hopefully Red Wings don't make this mistake again.

 

[Snuggs]

Holland made a couple of moves at market value. To me that is closer to the bare minimum rather than exceeding expectations and deserving an above average grade.

For the record, my breakdown would be something like this:

A: Greatly exceeded expecations
B: Met or slightly exceeded expectatons
C: Passed, slightly disappointing return
D: Very disappointing returns
F: No moves.

Yeah I agree. He didn't do anything bad but did wow the crowd either. He got a passing grade. IF he somehow unloaded Howard/Vanek/Daley/Helm. Then yeah.... A++

To me he did a solid job. C, C+ grade from me. I think he needs a passing grade essentially to keep his status-quo for his future job at Seattle, an also doesn't want to necessarily load up the stock-tank for someone else. (Yzerman). Kind of in a catch 22. Can't not do your job, or he'll get over-looked but also doesn't really want to do it too well cause someone else gets to finish out the end product. Assuming Yzerman takes over this summer(or next).

 

[SirloinUB]

Don't disagree with the general thrust, but in what universe is a B 80-90% when you only have A-E or A-F?

Honestly, I'm not even sure why I included the grade as % but to answer your question: Literally any University. F represents everything below 60 %. Generally speaking it aligns something like this
A = 90 - 100
B = 80 - 89
C = 70 - 79
D = 60 - 69
F =< 59%

 

[Snuggs]

Easy, cause I'm loyal to the Red Wings and he cost us potential draft capital or whatever. This remaining season with Vanek means zero to me as a fan. Vanek the player means zero to me as a fan. He's not a native Red Wing like Kronwall.

I'm not complaining to complain, I said it's not a real big deal but kind of a bummer since we had teams that wanted him, but you guys throw up stupid comments like this. Why should I as a fan be mad he wasn't moved? Uh, cause he cost my team either draft capital or a chance with a younger player. I'm not a Thomas Vanek fan, I'm a Red Wings fan, and he's never going to contribute anything that means something(to me). He's not a wise old veteran, he's a dude collecting a pay-check trying hard not to get injuried for next season. How many more weeks in the season anyways? Whatever they are they don't mean much with Vanek on or off the team. So when he specfically decides he rather stay a loser, and not let us get anything for him, yeah I get upset slightly, even if it's just for a 7th rounder.

Good for him as a person. I hope he's comfortable, it's essentailly now at the organization expense. It was and is he right to decide if he wanted to be moved or not, I'm still aloud to be upset with his choice, more-so imo, that it cost us future draft capital or a young(er) prospect/player.

It's not a huge deal but now, for sure, we see the cost of what a NTC does when signing 1 year players. Hopefully Red Wings don't make this mistake again.

Now that Vanek is basically not playing or contributing at all and the Wings are doing really well without him on the ice... I think my stance/hot-take is way more justified than perceived when I first posted it back near the deadline.

Professional loser you know?

 

[ManwithNoIdentity]

Who's for for/against bringing Nyquist back during FA?