Post-Game Talk: 2019 NHL Draft, Day Two
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Megaterio Llamas
el rey del mambo
And Frankie tries to make a big splash before the home crowd....winds up with cheese on his face.
Megaterio Llamas
el rey del mambo
When Mr Aquilini says the rebuild is over, the rebuild is over. We've stockpiled enough young talent already, now it's time to make our push for the playoffs
I am appalled, yet not surprised at the results of the 2019 draft. The first 2 picks were very good IMO. After that the fool traded Mazanec who had already signed in the Czech league and his 2019 3rd and either the 2020 or 2021 1st for 26-yr-old J.T. Miller, a decent player but not worth a 1st, especially since Tampa needed to rid cap space, and added a 3rd in a deal which Tampa should have been adding to not Vancouver.
Then he dicked around and traded the rights to Tom Pyatt who can become a free agent July 1 for Francis Perron and also swapped his sixth for a 7th to clinch the trade.
Then he traded his 4th down to for Bufallo's 4th in order to add a 7th.
He ended up with a 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 3 6ths and 2 7ths. 9 picks and 5 were in the bottom 2 rounds and has already been posted Carolina had 9 picks before Jim selected for the his 3rd time!!!!!
Why do I say I'm not surprised? Jim is not interested in draft picks beyond the first 2 rounds. He likens picks those rounds as containing a plethora of ready now NHLers when they play their first North American pro season, especially round 1. Horvat (In know he wasn't Jim's draft selection, but he became a Canuck in his first year and took the ice in Benning's first season in charge), Virtanen, McCann, Boeser, Pettersson, and Hughes did such.
Juolevi was supposed to but his development was stunted with a year in the Liiga and then a fiasco for 18 games in Utica before a season ending injury. They will try to push him out there this season and use his injuries as an excuse for his late start.
Demko was a goalie and they expected to have to give him a little time, but he's there now as well.
Woo is on the cusp and either makes the Canucks' roster this season or goes back to Jrs (as I believe he should) and will be in Vancouver next year unless he totally bombs out and they send him to Utica.
Benning still hasn't figured out the only reason he has received these 1st round treasures is due to how poorly his teams have done and the picks were gifted to him along with the other NHL bottom feeders by the NHL system.
Doesn't matter. Jim believes the later picks take too long to develop and he has traded many of those picks to sweeten deals in exchange for ready ow players, which has not been a smashing success. Thus, his efforts to gain the extra picks in the 6th and 7th rounds were an attempt to quiet the fans who have been harping for more draft picks. So he traded away this year's third and trade down his 4th as well as surrendering in his 2020 or '21 1st, but got back those bottom picks to give him 9 total for the draft.
Let's look at his first 4 drafts in reference to his 6th and 7th round picks. I only address the first 4 because every one of those picks had to be signed by this time. He has drafted 9 players in those spots.
6 were never even signed.
1 should not have in the person of Mackenze Stewart who never even sparkled in the ECHL.
1 entered the AHL last season and was so over his head that he literally left and went back to the Liiga in Finland. He still has 2 seasons left on his ELC.
1 has enjoyed moderate success recording 29Pts/63GP in Utica last season as a 21-yr-old rookie.
Hell he has drafted 5 guys in round 5 and didn't sign 3 of them either, traded one before he ever played a second under Canucks management and Gaudette is it. Another guy he got a ready now NHL player out of after the kid spent 3 years developing at NCAA Northeastern University.
So he got 1 guy out of the 14 he drafted in rounds 5-7.
The fact is that's all he has gotten to date from rounds 3-7!
Tryamkin (3) - Everyone is hoping he returns. His fans see him as somewhere between 2-4. Others see his worth, but see him as a 5-6. Any placement at this point is speculation and will be determined if/when he is in Vancouver again.
Brsiebois (3) - May be able to fill in as a call-up, but I would say if he is a regular, the Canucks are still so weak defensively that he can fit into the lineup.
Lockwood (3) - About to start his 4th season at NCAA U of
Michigan. His likelihood of making the Canucks is not high, but still there. Also could go anywhere he wants if he has banner season. He can become an NCAA free agent.
Tyler Madden (3) and Jack Rathbone (3) will be NCAA Sophomores this season. Both had good Freshman seasons.
Verdict is still out on 3 college boys.
Everyone says the Comets don't develop any players for the Canucks. Under the Benning regime only
Thatcher Demko (2 yrs +16 GP >Vancouver))
Jake Virtanen (1 yr >Vancouver)
Lukas Jasek (1 yr)
AdamGaudette (14 GP >Vancouver))
Juolevi (18 GP/Season ending injury)
Jonah Gadjovich (1 yr)
Kole Lind (1yr),
Petrus Palmu (12 GP >Back to Liiga)
have been assigned to Utica over the course of his 1st 4 Drafts and Michael DiPietro (3rd round) will be in Utica this season.
His 5th Draft (2018) will not produce any Comets in the 2019-20 season.
His 6th Draft (2019) may have a European who would be eligible since the Canadian Jr/NHL pact does not pertain to them unless they have played or are playing Canadian Jrs and are under the age of 20. I have not investigated the draft picks at this point in time.
It's hard for the farm to develop what AIN'T there! Jim isn't trying to find NHL players after his select few that he targets going into the draft. The rest are just filler and if either any of them or the undrafted pickups in Utica should push their way into the limelight like Hutton, Biega, Stecher, and recently MacEwen he is surprised because he wasn't expecting it. That's why taking care of kids on the farm has never been on his priority list.
Then he dicked around and traded the rights to Tom Pyatt who can become a free agent July 1 for Francis Perron and also swapped his sixth for a 7th to clinch the trade.
Then he traded his 4th down to for Bufallo's 4th in order to add a 7th.
He ended up with a 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 3 6ths and 2 7ths. 9 picks and 5 were in the bottom 2 rounds and has already been posted Carolina had 9 picks before Jim selected for the his 3rd time!!!!!
Why do I say I'm not surprised? Jim is not interested in draft picks beyond the first 2 rounds. He likens picks those rounds as containing a plethora of ready now NHLers when they play their first North American pro season, especially round 1. Horvat (In know he wasn't Jim's draft selection, but he became a Canuck in his first year and took the ice in Benning's first season in charge), Virtanen, McCann, Boeser, Pettersson, and Hughes did such.
Juolevi was supposed to but his development was stunted with a year in the Liiga and then a fiasco for 18 games in Utica before a season ending injury. They will try to push him out there this season and use his injuries as an excuse for his late start.
Demko was a goalie and they expected to have to give him a little time, but he's there now as well.
Woo is on the cusp and either makes the Canucks' roster this season or goes back to Jrs (as I believe he should) and will be in Vancouver next year unless he totally bombs out and they send him to Utica.
Benning still hasn't figured out the only reason he has received these 1st round treasures is due to how poorly his teams have done and the picks were gifted to him along with the other NHL bottom feeders by the NHL system.
Doesn't matter. Jim believes the later picks take too long to develop and he has traded many of those picks to sweeten deals in exchange for ready ow players, which has not been a smashing success. Thus, his efforts to gain the extra picks in the 6th and 7th rounds were an attempt to quiet the fans who have been harping for more draft picks. So he traded away this year's third and trade down his 4th as well as surrendering in his 2020 or '21 1st, but got back those bottom picks to give him 9 total for the draft.
Let's look at his first 4 drafts in reference to his 6th and 7th round picks. I only address the first 4 because every one of those picks had to be signed by this time. He has drafted 9 players in those spots.
6 were never even signed.
1 should not have in the person of Mackenze Stewart who never even sparkled in the ECHL.
1 entered the AHL last season and was so over his head that he literally left and went back to the Liiga in Finland. He still has 2 seasons left on his ELC.
1 has enjoyed moderate success recording 29Pts/63GP in Utica last season as a 21-yr-old rookie.
Hell he has drafted 5 guys in round 5 and didn't sign 3 of them either, traded one before he ever played a second under Canucks management and Gaudette is it. Another guy he got a ready now NHL player out of after the kid spent 3 years developing at NCAA Northeastern University.
So he got 1 guy out of the 14 he drafted in rounds 5-7.
The fact is that's all he has gotten to date from rounds 3-7!
Tryamkin (3) - Everyone is hoping he returns. His fans see him as somewhere between 2-4. Others see his worth, but see him as a 5-6. Any placement at this point is speculation and will be determined if/when he is in Vancouver again.
Brsiebois (3) - May be able to fill in as a call-up, but I would say if he is a regular, the Canucks are still so weak defensively that he can fit into the lineup.
Lockwood (3) - About to start his 4th season at NCAA U of
Michigan. His likelihood of making the Canucks is not high, but still there. Also could go anywhere he wants if he has banner season. He can become an NCAA free agent.
Tyler Madden (3) and Jack Rathbone (3) will be NCAA Sophomores this season. Both had good Freshman seasons.
Verdict is still out on 3 college boys.
Everyone says the Comets don't develop any players for the Canucks. Under the Benning regime only
Thatcher Demko (2 yrs +16 GP >Vancouver))
Jake Virtanen (1 yr >Vancouver)
Lukas Jasek (1 yr)
AdamGaudette (14 GP >Vancouver))
Juolevi (18 GP/Season ending injury)
Jonah Gadjovich (1 yr)
Kole Lind (1yr),
Petrus Palmu (12 GP >Back to Liiga)
have been assigned to Utica over the course of his 1st 4 Drafts and Michael DiPietro (3rd round) will be in Utica this season.
His 5th Draft (2018) will not produce any Comets in the 2019-20 season.
His 6th Draft (2019) may have a European who would be eligible since the Canadian Jr/NHL pact does not pertain to them unless they have played or are playing Canadian Jrs and are under the age of 20. I have not investigated the draft picks at this point in time.
It's hard for the farm to develop what AIN'T there! Jim isn't trying to find NHL players after his select few that he targets going into the draft. The rest are just filler and if either any of them or the undrafted pickups in Utica should push their way into the limelight like Hutton, Biega, Stecher, and recently MacEwen he is surprised because he wasn't expecting it. That's why taking care of kids on the farm has never been on his priority list.
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TruGr1t
Proper Villain
- Jun 26, 2003
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thecupismine
Registered User
- Apr 1, 2007
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There's one thing about this draft that stood out to me in particular. If you look at what Gillis said in his radio interviews earlier this year about the Canucks up-front, he mentioned if he was in charge he'd go after more guys who can win battles in the corner and/or are fast so they can enable the higher skilled players like Petterson, Boesser, and Horvat to do their thing. Think Burrows for the Sedins, or Raymond with Kesler helping gain the zone.
The draft (and the Miller acquisition) seemed to follow a similar MO. Podkolzin's greatest asset is his non-stop motor (sometimes to his detriment) and ability to power through the opposition. Hoglander has great hands and plays at a high pace, darting in and out of traffic with ease which should help with transitioning the puck up the ice (something the Canucks have been terrible at over the past few years). Kappen, Malone, McDonough are both power wingers who are good in the corners, and Plasek is another guy who apparently plays with pace.
The other thing that stood out is wingers tend to develop faster/transition into the NHL easier. If the Canucks feel they're going to be competitive in a few years, drafting players who will be on cheap ELC right as their other players begin to peak makes sense.
If even 2 of these guys make the league in 3 years in top 9 roles, it will really help alleviate the dearth of skilled depth on the wings today.
The draft (and the Miller acquisition) seemed to follow a similar MO. Podkolzin's greatest asset is his non-stop motor (sometimes to his detriment) and ability to power through the opposition. Hoglander has great hands and plays at a high pace, darting in and out of traffic with ease which should help with transitioning the puck up the ice (something the Canucks have been terrible at over the past few years). Kappen, Malone, McDonough are both power wingers who are good in the corners, and Plasek is another guy who apparently plays with pace.
The other thing that stood out is wingers tend to develop faster/transition into the NHL easier. If the Canucks feel they're going to be competitive in a few years, drafting players who will be on cheap ELC right as their other players begin to peak makes sense.
If even 2 of these guys make the league in 3 years in top 9 roles, it will really help alleviate the dearth of skilled depth on the wings today.
Blue and Green
Out to lunch
- Dec 17, 2017
- 3,436
- 3,410
I think the guy who's overseen the amateur scouting and the draft since 2015 is the one genuinely capable person in the upper management echelon; I'll trust his decisions. Wish I could say the same for the rest of them.
He liked Podz + Hoglander and essentially ignored the rest. He gave every team a B or higher unless they reached with their first pick (Islanders, Ottawa, Pitts) or didn’t have any picks (CBJ, SJ).
Which I basically agree with. Podz and Hogs are good value picks, everything else is pretty meh / forgettable.
So I hate that they traded a 1st and 3rd for Miller. What makes is worse. Vegas traded up for the pick immediately behind the Canucks 2nd. Had Benning just been able to trade 40 down for 48 and 82 like San Jose did with 41, it makes tossing in the 2019 3rd (and yes it was tossed in and an unnecessary add on) it mitigates the immediate lack of a 3rd.
There is no forethought with this management team. No creativity.
It's like the Kesler trade. Why make it at that exact time? Was Tampa really going to back off if they didn't get a 2019 3rd....I highly doubt it as I'd imagine they're the ones who targeted Vancouver not the other way around. So why not wait until you see what happens in UFA, which players become available across the league, maybe comparable players don't require 1st rounders. Maybe some teams would pay you to take comparable players? You just never know. This whole move felt rushed so they could make a splash at their hometown draft.
Might as well just put all the picks on the table....they'll probably have to use picks to get rid of the dead weight on their own roster anyways.
I'm so disappointed. The team has been a big part of my life for 2 decades and these guys are sucking my will to continue to pay attention to them away. Terrified for the next week, but at the least it could be the precipice that makes me find a new hobby.
There is no forethought with this management team. No creativity.
It's like the Kesler trade. Why make it at that exact time? Was Tampa really going to back off if they didn't get a 2019 3rd....I highly doubt it as I'd imagine they're the ones who targeted Vancouver not the other way around. So why not wait until you see what happens in UFA, which players become available across the league, maybe comparable players don't require 1st rounders. Maybe some teams would pay you to take comparable players? You just never know. This whole move felt rushed so they could make a splash at their hometown draft.
Might as well just put all the picks on the table....they'll probably have to use picks to get rid of the dead weight on their own roster anyways.
I'm so disappointed. The team has been a big part of my life for 2 decades and these guys are sucking my will to continue to pay attention to them away. Terrified for the next week, but at the least it could be the precipice that makes me find a new hobby.
LickTheEnvelope
Time to Retool... again...
I actually love this idea too... to a point. Problem is still the defense/defense pool is about the worst in the NHL only moved up by Hughes.
DFAC
Registered User
- Jan 19, 2008
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Seemed like this draft was weak on D and they just went with BPA which I have no problem with
I was terrified pre draft that they would select a dman at 10 based on positional need
Bankerguy
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2013
- 3,816
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Hi all,
The more I think about it, the more I don't mind the Jt Miller trade.
He's only 26, so he has at least 4 0r 5 years of solid hockey a head of him
He is a legit second line winger too and he's locked up so no need to worry about resigning him anytime soon.
The only way this trade really burns the Canucks is if they miss the playoffs both times in the next two years because then we lose a potential top 15 pick.
If the Canucks make the playoffs in 2021 and we end up losing like the 24th pick overall that year...meh, thats not so bad considering it got us a legit top 6 forward
What's way worse than that would be Myers at 7 X 7. Or getting Lucic. That would kill this club
The more I think about it, the more I don't mind the Jt Miller trade.
He's only 26, so he has at least 4 0r 5 years of solid hockey a head of him
He is a legit second line winger too and he's locked up so no need to worry about resigning him anytime soon.
The only way this trade really burns the Canucks is if they miss the playoffs both times in the next two years because then we lose a potential top 15 pick.
If the Canucks make the playoffs in 2021 and we end up losing like the 24th pick overall that year...meh, thats not so bad considering it got us a legit top 6 forward
What's way worse than that would be Myers at 7 X 7. Or getting Lucic. That would kill this club
PG Canuck
Registered User
- Mar 29, 2010
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Pronman sucks. Can't believe people actually read what he has to say, when he says things like this:
"Nobody else will for sure play, but Ethan Keppen, Karel Plasek, Jack Malone, Carson Focht and Arvid Costmar all are NHL prospects with reasonable chances to play games in the league. They helped their system a lot this weekend."
My dog could've came up with that.
Josepho
i want the bartkowski thread back
He seems to attempt to bite off more than he can chew.
It's not actually possible for an individual person to have a strong opinion on all of the late round guys.
There are ways this burns the team even if they make the playoffs, just take a boo at the talents who've been available between 16-31 the last 10 years.
More than 90% of these people who are paid to be draft/prospect experts are very bad at their job and I would rather read an educated fans opinion than paying to subscribe for that drivel. Pronman is horrible and his track record is pathetically bad, but every year we see people pointing out what he says like it means something. It's mind numbing.
PG Canuck
Registered User
- Mar 29, 2010
- 62,939
- 24,098
Yep - he literally provided zero analysis in that short little blurb. I credit guys like Pronman for making a living off faking it, pretty impressive to be so shallow with your analysis and people still listen.
NuxFan09
Registered User
I kind of agree with this, but I'd read a non-Canucks fan's report, not that of a Canucks fan. Most Canucks fans are too sour and jaded for them to be any more legit than someone like Pronman. I just know I'd be getting the most negative spin possible.
NuxFan09
Registered User
Yeah I agree with this line of thinking. If we miss the playoffs this coming season then make it in 2021, hopefully most people here would forget about the 1st. The only way I see myself lamenting the 1st is if the team did make it in 2021 but it was by the skin of their teeth and they were totally outclassed, kind of like what happened in 2015. If they make it because they are a legit talented team on the rise, and Miller is a big part of that, I can live with the trade.
We'll see.
Bankerguy
Registered User
- Apr 28, 2013
- 3,816
- 1,954
I agree.
Really, hard to judge this without hindsight.
Imagine if the Canucks miss the playoffs next year, then score a top 3 pick and draft a star, then make the playoffs the following year and go deep. We lose a late 1st but scored a stud in the 2020 draft. No one will care, especially if Miller puts up 50 points and gives us a legit 2nd line with Horvat
THE Green Man
Registered User
Not only was the amount of picks noteworthy but they killed the first 3 rounds- specifically the 3rd:
thecupismine
Registered User
- Apr 1, 2007
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Agreed, I get what they're doing, but it's likely too early to execute in that manner. The defense, as it stands today, is fairly barren. They're banking right now on Juolevi, Tryamkin, Hughes and Woo all making it big and playing like top 4 players, when the numbers suggest it's more likely that Hughes + maybe one of the other guys turns plays that role.
Given how long defensemen take to develop, you want to stock up on them early on in the rebuild so they peak at a similar point to your forwards, which we clearly did not do. Whoever the next GM is is going to have to be creative about how they build the blueline, as there are lots of pieces missing if they want to turn themselves into a contender.
biturbo19
Registered User
- Jul 13, 2010
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I understand the general malaise around the draft given what went down. But i'm kinda confused as to how these specific bolded items are "bad things" to be appalled with. He traded a pair of AHL free agents. That's soooooooo appalling.
Like...what?On the rest of this whole tirade, i'm kinda confused. It honestly just comes across a lot like you're a bit sour that there isn't more near-term help coming for Utica. That's not what the draft is for.
When it comes to a 4th round pick vs a 7th round pick...for any of them that are actually going to pan out, the timeline is generally pretty indistinguishable. Once you're outside the Top-60 picks or so...you're talking about throwing darts, with prolonged development timelines. Unless you do strike gold and have an absolutely one in thousands sort of "boom" on your hands with a rare accelerated timeline. Especially when it comes to a draft that looked like this...where i didn't see an overload of great "value" in the 4th round. If you're not in love with the middle-rounds and feel like you've already gone off the precipice into "late round darts" territory of the draft, why not diversify and double your darts thrown?
What does it hurt that they selected some guys who aren't going to be in Utica for 2-3 years and might even have to spend a couple years there on top of it? What does it hurt (other than Utica) that they grabbed some Euro/NCAA bound guys who if they pan out as well as Gaudette...may never step foot in the AHL for even a full year? Especially when you've listed off a plethora of guys who have hit the AHL and not really progressed, including some fairly high Top-90 sort of picks. Can you blame them for maybe wanting to lean on other "3rd party" developmental systems they've had better results with like NCAA and Euro leagues? Many of those higher pick infusions to the Utica roster will still be there next year, to continue "developing" in Utica. You of all people, should understand that you can only have so many kids in the fold at once, if you hope to be at all competitive in the AHL. You need room for those veterans to help stabilize things.
Like, i'd probably worry about Utica showing some sort of ability to legitimately groom and improve, and eventually graduate some of those 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks they've received...before i get all "appalled" at trading down a handful of spots in the 4th round crapshoot to secure an extra late round dart. And how that's so focused on immediate return, compared to your gripings about a 7th rounder being further away than a slightly higher 4th rounder or whatever.
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