2019 HHOF Mock Poll

[Pominville Knows]

Would be pretty cool with a poll including not the least the europeans brought up in these comments. Cool to see if for example Petrov gets more traction than Martinec, and if some real vintage canadian can surpass say Suchy. Maybe include some defensive stalwarts like Lehtinen as well, and why not Tikkanen?

 

[wetcoast]

Sure, but I've been consistent on this forum that I think the Hall's standards need to be higher. More like baseball.

You need to take a closer look at baseball a lot of the veterans committee inductions are abysmal as is the recent Harold Baines one.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Gut feeling I'd say Patrik Elias, because he played his entire career in New Jersey, went to four SC finals winning two SCs, played many roles inside the lineup throughout his career, seemed like a good guy and leader (?), had a 20 years career, have decent career totals.

But... that doesn't mean I'd be enthousiastically pushing for him, or anyone on the list, to make it.But first choice at quick glance would be Elias.

He also lead the league in playoff scoring for a decade long timeframe. He’s certainly borderline, but I never understand why Alfredsson is routinely put on a tier above Elias. They’re pretty comparable IMO.

 

[tony d]

Went with 6: Alfredsson, Joseph, Wilson, Tremblay, Elias, Fleury.

 

[GMR]

He also lead the league in playoff scoring for a decade long timeframe. He’s certainly borderline, but I never understand why Alfredsson is routinely put on a tier above Elias. They’re pretty comparable IMO.

Because one guy was the face of his franchise and the other wasn't. That's always going to garner more respect. Alfredsson was Captain of a Canadian franchise for a long time. Elias was a guy playing for a franchise with at least three players more popular than him. Not to mention, that franchise was known more for defense than offense.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Because one guy was the face of his franchise and the other wasn't. That's always going to garner more respect. Alfredsson was Captain of a Canadian franchise for a long time. Elias was a guy playing for a franchise with at least three players more popular than him. Not to mention, that franchise was known more for defense than offense.

Yeah but that shouldn’t affect on ice impact. Elias was the best forward on two cup winners and pernial contenders throughout the 2000s. He probably did sacrifice some point totals playing for guys like Lemaire too. If he didn’t, he might have a couple of “sexier” peak season totals. Devils fans always wonder what numbers he would have put up the season he came back from hepatitis a. He was on pace to break his single season record.

 

[BlueBull]

Because one guy was the face of his franchise and the other wasn't. That's always going to garner more respect. Alfredsson was Captain of a Canadian franchise for a long time. Elias was a guy playing for a franchise with at least three players more popular than him. Not to mention, that franchise was known more for defense than offense.

True, Not really a knock on Elias's Hall of Fame case, though. Those 3 players (I think) are Scott Stevens, Scott Niedermayer and Martin Brodeur, all NHL legends. Elias is certainly a better player than guys like Jason Arnott or Brian Rafslski.

Borderline HHOF

 

[GMR]

Would be pretty cool with a poll including not the least the europeans brought up in these comments. Cool to see if for example Petrov gets more traction than Martinec, and if some real vintage canadian can surpass say Suchy. Maybe include some defensive stalwarts like Lehtinen as well, and why not Tikkanen?

I would have to think at least one of those Europeans gets inducted. They inducted Yakushev last year, and he's not as deserving as some of the European names already mentioned in this thread.

Yeah but that shouldn’t affect on ice impact. Elias was the best forward on two cup winners and pernial contenders throughout the 2000s. He probably did sacrifice some point totals playing for guys like Lemaire too. If he didn’t, he might have a couple of “sexier” peak season totals. Devils fans always wonder what numbers he would have put up the season he came back from hepatitis a. He was on pace to break his single season record.

Maybe so, but I believe it affects voters. Certainly affects perception and popularity. Elias was certainly under the radar more than Alfredsson throughout his career.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Elias and Alfredsson are easy picks. JC Tremblay too - easily the best pre-expansion player not in the HHOF; clearly left out for political reasons.

I also voted for LeClair and Barrasso, but just as easily could have voted for Fleury, Cujo, or Wilson.

A little surprised to see Fleury with so many more votes than LeClair, but maybe I shouldn't be.

 

[Troubadour]

I love this. Many of these guys actually are (in)famous and renowned for something, and some of them are interesting and/or tragic characters.

I considered the one who dodged an epic fight and never did a thing in the PS, then the one who fled his country, slapped a referee overseas, broke his leg twice and always played well for money.

There is a couple of guys who were widely recognized as... What you don't want your children to grow into unless you're that guy who gets all cerebral squashing empty beer cans against his forehead.

There is this guy with a legendary mask and racial slur underneath. There is the bad haircut guy and the hepatitis guy and the "scored 150 points once" guy. There is a "scored a goal on the Whalers" buddy. And his teammate who got a Conn Smythe!

Let's not forget the Michael Jordan of hockey. And the Michael Myers of hockey.

Then there is the small one with the big Elvis Presley voice who fell a victim to the Michael Jackson of hockey who couldn't sing or dance.

There is a rabid St. Bernard who could bite you in the butt when you expected it the least but sometimes proved to be toothless when you prayed for him to bite.

I really like the only Legion of Duke Nukem pupil who avoided getting duke nuked (every time the Cup was in sight).

And I would perhaps include the one with a relatively long surname a short part of which really makes you think about "nomen omen" being a thing.

 

[Voight]

CuJo, Martin, Wilson, Fleury

I have to imagine Alfredsson finally gets it. I think he's the most deserving player up on that list, and I bet the HHOF will probably want to throw Sens fans a bone after the year they just had.

The rest I'd probably even out with Fleury, Turgeon, and Roenick/Elias.

Honestly, I dont mean to sound like an ass, but do you really think the HHOF cares about Sens fans? Or any fan base really.

This is the same organization that refused to induct Pat Burns, even when it became clear his days were numbered.

 

[Voight]

He also lead the league in playoff scoring for a decade long timeframe. He’s certainly borderline, but I never understand why Alfredsson is routinely put on a tier above Elias. They’re pretty comparable IMO.

Their top 10 finishes are nearly identical with Elias' 3,6,10 finishes in points besting Alfredssons 4,7,9.

Elias' 3rd and 10th place finishes came a decade apart FWIW. One could also argue during their peak seasons (2001, 2006) Alfredsson had better linemates but thats a different debate.

But like others have noted, there is a certain narrative.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Their top 10 finishes are nearly identical with Elias' 3,6,10 finishes in points besting Alfredssons 4,7,9.

Elias' 3rd and 10th place finishes came a decade apart FWIW. One could also argue during their peak seasons (2001, 2006) Alfredsson had better linemates but thats a different debate.

But like others have noted, there is a certain narrative.

Thank you for looking that up. I thought of doing it be decided I was too lazy/it’s too difficult to do on my phone.

And agreed. Guys like Arnott/Sykora and Gomez/Gionta were certainly no scrubs, but they didn’t have the peaks that Heatley and Spezza had.

At the end of the day, I think both guys get in. Look at the current list, there are no sho-ins in line for the immediate future, and both Elias and Alfredsson are the kind of players the committee loves: classy, loyal, two way, consistent...

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Their top 10 finishes are nearly identical with Elias' 3,6,10 finishes in points besting Alfredssons 4,7,9.

Elias' 3rd and 10th place finishes came a decade apart FWIW. One could also argue during their peak seasons (2001, 2006) Alfredsson had better linemates but thats a different debate.

But like others have noted, there is a certain narrative.

Lol you want to talk about a narrative? Daniel Alfredsson is the only guy I see you consistently arguing against.

Top 3 point scorers of the 70s:
1. Phil Esposito (HHOF)
2. Guy Lafleur (HHOF)
3. Marcel Dionne (HHOF)

80s:
1. Wayne Gretzky (HHOF)
2. Peter Stastny (HHOF)
3. Jari Kurri (HHOF)

90s:
1. Jaromir Jagr (will be a first ballot)
2. Joe Sakic (HHOF)
3. Adam Oates (HHOF)

00s:
1. Joe Thornton (will be first ballot)
2. Jarome Iginla (will be first ballot)
3. Daniel Alfredsson (not a hall of famer by your standards)

Top 10 players in points per game in the 70s (ignoring guys with less than 100 games played): All Hall of famers.
Top 10 in the 80s: All Hall of Famers
Top 10 in the 90s: All Hall of Famers
Top 10 in the 00s: Will all be Hall of Famers save for Palffy, but he didn't play that long in the 2000s anyway, and of course Alfredsson is in the top 10

This is the list of players with a top 5 Selke finish, a top 5 Hart finish, and over 1000 points that aren't in the Hall of Fame (That are eligible):
Theo Fleury
Steve Larmer

When you take into account eras, Alfredsson's offensive stats are more impressive than Fleury's, and significantly more impressive than Larmer.

Add in his Olympic Gold, and the fact that he was the face of a franchise and a well respected captain and he's an easy choice for the HHOF.

Fun Fact: When using era adjusted stats, the only retired player that is eligible for the Hall of Fame ahead of Alfredsson, is Pierre Turgeon.

 

[Big Phil]

Alfredsson is a guy who you figure probably gets in even if he is a classic bottom tier guy. Fleury has to eventually get there doesn't he? Let the grudges go, I say, and let him in. On that list that is all I can see getting in. I like Barrasso in there but I get the feeling he burned too many bridges.

Lastly, one name not on that list was Rick Middleton. Really deserving in my opinion and certainly not the worst forward that would be in there.

 

[trentmccleary]

He also lead the league in playoff scoring for a decade long timeframe. He’s certainly borderline, but I never understand why Alfredsson is routinely put on a tier above Elias. They’re pretty comparable IMO.

This is why. It's what everybody sees when they look at them side by side. As well as, a 6-36-96-132 difference in their career lines. Four seasons may not seem like much, but it's a quarter of their careers and Elias would have needed to duplicate 4 of his best-6 seasons to match up.

DA	77	43	103	1.34	PE	82	40	96	1.17
DA	70	40	89	1.27	PE	x	x	x	x
DA	77	29	87	1.13	PE	x	x	x	x
DA	77	32	80	1.04	PE	82	38	81	0.99
DA	57	21	59	1.04	PE	38	16	45	1.18
DA	68	24	70	1.03	PE	x	x	x	x
DA	70	20	71	1.01	PE	72	35	72	1.00
DA	78	27	78	1.00	PE	77	31	78	1.01
DA	79	24	74	0.94	PE	81	26	78	0.96
DA	76	24	71	0.93	PE	75	21	69	0.92
DA	78	37	71	0.91	PE	x	x	x	x
DA	55	17	45	0.82	PE	58	19	48	0.83

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Sanf]

Voted for Lorne Chabot. A great goaltender lost to time. Died at age 46 in 1946.

I don´t know if Chabot would be bad selection, but if I had to choose five of those guys Chabot wouldn´t be one of them. From goalies I would put atleast Joseph and Barrasso ahead of him (maybe Vanbiesbrouck too)

Granted he could be money in playoffs. And he did bounce back after his many slumps. But he did have many slumps and don´t know any other all-time great goalie seen replaceable so many times as Chabot. I love Chabot, but wouldn´t put him in.

Few clips of his up and down regular season performances.

The Leader-Post - Mar 19, 1931
By Jimmy Thompson
For example take Lorne Chabot. This year he is goalkeeper extraordinary and on one and more occasion has saved the day for the Toronto Leafs. Yet last year he appeared to have slumped to such an extent that the club offered waivers on him. Yet Lorne is as fine a net-minder as there is in the game today.

January 15, 1932
The Vancouver Sun
...waivers were asked on Chabot by the Leafs, and chances are that, had the waivers been pressed, he would have passed out of the major loop for every other club is pretty well fortified in the matter of net-minders. But just about that time, Leafs were losing, and when Benny Grant cracked up in front of the powerful Maroon snipers in Montreal on the night of December 3, and lost 8-2, with Maroons bagging three goals in 38 seconds, the Leafs laid off Grant and gave Chabot another chance. Immediately Leafs started a terrific winning streak which ultimately swept them into the lead in their section...

 

[a79krgm]

I don´t know if Chabot would be bad selection, but if I had to choose five of those guys Chabot wouldn´t be one of them. From goalies I would put atleast Joseph and Barrasso ahead of him (maybe Vanbiesbrouck too)

Granted he could be money in playoffs. And he did bounce back after his many slumps. But he did have many slumps and don´t know any other all-time great goalie seen replaceable so many times as Chabot. I love Chabot, but wouldn´t put him in.
...

Yes, you get that idea about him being hot and cold. He was involved in one of the biggest trades of the day when Montreal shipped him off to Chicago with Howie Morenz. It was then with Chicago that Chabot won his first and only Venzina. Also that year, he became the very first NHL player to be featured on the cover of Time magazine.

I would liken him to Gump Worsley in the sense that he was often temperamental and would sometimes be the hero and sometimes the scapegoat. THN (2010) rated Lorne Chabot as the 20th best goaltender of all time.

 

[Rebels57]

Mogilny, Alfredsson, Roenick, Richter

 

[Sanf]

Yes, you get that idea about him being hot and cold. He was involved in one of the biggest trades of the day when Montreal shipped him off to Chicago with Howie Morenz. It was then with Chicago that Chabot won his first and only Venzina. Also that year, he became the very first NHL player to be featured on the cover of Time magazine.

I would liken him to Gump Worsley in the sense that he was often temperamental and would sometimes be the hero and sometimes the scapegoat. THN (2010) rated Lorne Chabot as the 20th best goaltender of all time.

Vezina season was fine, but yet again after that, without playing a game, he became unwanted.

The Leader-Post - Jan 22, 1936
CHABOT NOT WANTED!!!
....
Meanwhile, the hero of last year, Chabot, is being turned out of the league. Hawks are reported to have asked other clubs for waivers on the lanky netminder, whoce place was taken by Karakas when Chabot suffered training season injury.

Chicago´s intention probably is to sell him to a minor league club, but it is doubtful Chabot would consest to play anything but big time hockey. He is reported to received half of this season´s salary from Chicago and probably will return to selling in Toronto if no other N.H.L. club wants hims.

IIRC he was sent to minors, but refuse and Chicago suspended him. Eventually I believe it was Canadiens who took his rights and then traded him to Maroons. Originally intentions was to keep him as Bill Beveridge´s spare. But yet againg he bounced backed and was pretty good in Maroons after getting chance... But after the season Alec Connell decided to make a comeback and Chabot was without job.

In a way I guess Worsley is a good comparasion. Haven´t made deep research on his career so can´t really make a deeper analysis.

I´m pretty sure that the THN ranking is mostly based on his low GAA. It´s shame that the discussion around Chabot is usually boring and bit lazy one going around his low GAA. In truth guy had really fascinating career.

 

[frisco]

So far the surprise in the poll for me is Fleury (25 votes). Compared to a guy like Pierre Turgeon (8 votes) Turgeon leads him in goals (515-455), assists , points (1327-1088), points/game. Pretty much same age and career overlap so no adjustments needed there.

Fleury was once a 2nd team RW AS. Turgeon never an AS. Both peaked in Hart trophy voting at 5. Fleury won a Cup as a rookie but only made it past the first round one other time. Turgeon had a few playoff runs but no Cup. Style-wise they were different. Fleury was grittier but at his size wasn't scaring anyone. Turgeon was a pacifist but didn't have a penchant for bad penalties. Theo took his share. Both were not defensive go to guys.

Fleury played one a few best on best tourneys for Canada. Don't know if this was a positional thing or something else. Obviously, the 1987 WJ brawl comes into play. Fleury as more of an instigator and Turgeon (for better or worse) on the bench.

To me, physicality/postseason/defensive play probably a wash. Turgeon had a better NHL career but Fleury has a better international resume.

My Best-Carey

 

[double5son10]

Voted for LeClair and Wilson, but would probably give greater support for more Euros. And Guy Carbonneau.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

These results are proof that a lot of people don't read past the first few options

 

[Merya]

I want Mike Richter in and the others better be pre-90s euros. None of the NHLers deserve it yet or ever, except Richter!

 

[The Panther]

Alfredsson is a guy who you figure probably gets in even if he is a classic bottom tier guy. Fleury has to eventually get there doesn't he?

I don't really see Alfredsson as a "bottom tier guy". I would say he's one tier above that. For me, it's kind of like this (using right wingers):
1st tier: Maurice Richard / Guy Lafleur
2nd tier: Teemu Selanne / Pavel Bure
3rd tier: Daniel Alfredsson / Henri Richard
4th tier: Mark Recchi / Glenn Anderson
I mean, I think he's safely in with a little room to spare. Being the captain / face / leader / best-player on a Canadian franchise for 14 straight years is no small potatoes. He almost led that small franchise to the Cup, and would have if his teammates didn't crap out in the Finals.

Fleury is an interesting case. You mention Barrasso having burned too many bridges, and that's what I worry about with Fleury. I think the Hall induction committee will be nervous about his induction speech -- he's likely to throw a bunch of people under the bus. Fleury obviously fails the Hall's vague criterion of "exemplifies sportsmanship and character" or whatever it says -- at least, during his playing days -- so I think his induction might depend on how the rotating committee(s) views his post-retirement legacy, which has been pretty impressive, even if I'm personally turned off by his desperate bids for celebrity recognition. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see.

But I think you're right about Barrasso. Unless one year's committee randomly throws up a couple of his ex-teammates who both nominate him, I'm wondering if the ship has sailed there.