Rumor: 2019 Free Agent Boredom Part IV

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henchman21

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On the size/skill... there are spots that tend to show that there is a need for some size (center is pretty well documented). You can't win without skill either. Both sides are right.
 
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flyfysher

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On the size/skill... there are spots that tend to show that there is a need for some size (center is pretty well documented). You can't win without skill either. Both sides are right.

It's skill and size with skill first and foremost. You cannot discount size (really more like physical play than size. Being a lumbering behemoth is no good either) though. Perhaps I'm wrong but my sense is that Pokecheque wants to believe everyday sized players can play in the NHL if they're skilled enough. He likes the midgets and powder puffs like Caufield and Kerfoot. They're skilled players, especially Caufield. All things being equal, I'll take a 6'-0" - 200+ lb player over the smaller player. It's one thing to play in the NHL with those guys. I'm not convinced that either of those guys is who you'll win the SC with.
 

flyfysher

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Really? That's the crux of your argument? Zadorov injuring someone else's star player? I like Z as much as the next guy but if that's where this is going, then you're just choosing to die on a crumbling hillside.

Don't really recall the last team that won Stanley Cup glory in recent years who had a guy who targeted and took out the team's best players. If Zadorov is that guy, then frankly, he's really ****ty at it.

But go ahead. Bet. I suppose it's your money to lose.

Just think if Zadorov had laid that hit on Caufield instead of Tkachuk. That's the kind of play you'll see in the POs. You don't set out to target and hurt someone a la Matt Cooke. But you don't hold back in PO hockey either. That's how Calvert's series ended against the Sharks. So your indignation seems a little unwarranted.
 

Pokecheque

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Just think if Zadorov had laid that hit on Caufield instead of Tkachuk. That's the kind of play you'll see in the POs. You don't set out to target and hurt someone a la Matt Cooke. But you don't hold back in PO hockey either. That's how Calvert's series ended against the Sharks. So your indignation seems a little unwarranted.

It's still an insanely weak argument. Even Tom Wilson didn't take out William Karlsson or anyone else of note in the Caps eventual Stanley Cup victory.

Goals show up on the scoreboard. Hits don't. End of story.
 
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flyfysher

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It's still an insanely weak argument. Even Tom Wilson didn't take out William Karlsson or anyone else of note in the Caps eventual Stanley Cup victory.

Goals show up on the scoreboard. Hits don't. End of story.

So you say. That's why Caufield got drafted where he did. I guess that shows how much great hockey minds in the business agree with you.
 

McMetal

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I'm willing to bet a couple of big Zadorov hits on Caufield will take him out of the game. Can't score goals if you're not playing.
That's not tough hockey, that's goon hockey. The days when you needed enforcers to protect your star players from the other team's goons taking their heads off are long dead, and I'm glad. Z hits big, but he's clean about it, the idea that we would be well served to employ a thug like Rinaldo to take out ROR in our next playoff run makes my skin crawl. If we can't win without that kind of dirty, unsportsmanlike play I'd rather not.
 
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Pokecheque

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There is certainly a place in hockey for size, and it will always be there. There is a place for skill too. If you don't have both, you're gonna have a bad time.

Sure. I don't get why this has to be such a polarizing argument every goddamn time. Am I really having to argue the value of an elite goal-scorer (let's just swap out Cole Caufield for Johnny Hockey for the sake of argument since CC hasn't yet made the NHL) over Nikita f***ing Zadorov!? We're talking about a reliable scoring forward vs. a #4-6 defender, and #4 is stretching it. The latter has an important role to play but if I'm being told he's more important to winning than the actual goal scorer, then I don't mind saying that's just a galaxy brain take.

The Avs obviously listen to their analytics guys, and it's pretty clear their front office is valuing size AND speed in addition to skill. I don't see what's so hard to understand.
 
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McMetal

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So you say. That's why Caufield got drafted where he did. I guess that shows how much great hockey minds in the business agree with you.
Draft position is a weak argument, too. Is Strome better than Rantanen just because he was picked first? Teams make mistakes all the time, and mark my words, a bunch of teams made a mistake passing on Caufield.
 

Pokecheque

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So you say. That's why Caufield got drafted where he did. I guess that shows how much great hockey minds in the business agree with you.

Oh, I'm sorry, was he not taken in the first round?

Oh and since we're on the subject of "great hockey minds," how much are players like Brendan Gallagher (fifth round pick, since you're touting draft pedigree now) and Johnny Gaudreau (fourth round pick) vs. what Nikita Zadorov (first round pick) is making? Those great hockey minds in the business are the ones drafting those contracts.
 

flyfysher

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Sure. I don't get why this has to be such a polarizing argument every goddamn time. Am I really having to argue the value of an elite goal-scorer (let's just swap out Cole Caufield for Johnny Hockey for the sake of argument since CC hasn't yet made the NHL) over Nikita ****ing Zadorov!? We're talking about a reliable scoring forward vs. a #4-6 defender, and #4 is stretching it. The latter has an important role to play but if I'm being told he's more important to winning than the actual goal scorer, then I don't mind saying that's just a galaxy brain take.

The Avs obviously listen to their analytics guys, and it's pretty clear their front office is valuing size AND speed in addition to skill. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

First off, cool your jets.

Second, I'm not advocating for goon hockey. Never have. I pointed out that if Zadorov hit Caufield like he did Tkachuk then I wouldn't expect Caufield to come out of it well. I went to the Jets game where Zadorov took over the game and hit Schiefle. If Zadorov had hit Caufield like that then I wouldn't expect Caufield to be able to take that on a nightly basis.

I value speed and skill and physicality (prefer the players to be at least 6'-0" and 190). Interesting you cite Karlsson who is not physically comparable to Caufield.
 

flyfysher

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Draft position is a weak argument, too. Is Strome better than Rantanen just because he was picked first? Teams make mistakes all the time, and mark my words, a bunch of teams made a mistake passing on Caufield.

Caufield can score. But he's a munchkin.
 

flyfysher

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That's not tough hockey, that's goon hockey. The days when you needed enforcers to protect your star players from the other team's goons taking their heads off are long dead, and I'm glad. Z hits big, but he's clean about it, the idea that we would be well served to employ a thug like Rinaldo to take out ROR in our next playoff run makes my skin crawl. If we can't win without that kind of dirty, unsportsmanlike play I'd rather not.

I never advocated goon hockey. I'd be surprised if Caufield could withstand some of Zadorov's hits which I regard as clean.
 

Pokecheque

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Again, this is where the logic train completely comes off the tracks. Skilled players will always be more important than non-skilled players. That doesn't mean the non-skilled players don't have a role to play.

I'll just point out this ridiculous argument started because the Calgary Flames looked at their abysmal playoff performance and decided that 1. The only player who even decided to show up for the series wasn't worth keeping, and 2. Their center corps isn't nearly skilled enough and most definitely isn't fast enough, and their top center keeps getting injured at the worst possible time every single season. Also, their defense wasn't good enough and was far too reliant on a 35-year-old guy playing out of his mind, and who promptly came back down to Earth once the postseason started.

But no, they decided, after prioritizing toughness year in, year out, that they still need to inject the lineup with talentless grinders you can pick up anywhere, anytime. Get Zac Rinaldo on the phone, STAT!

All chasing the White Whale of "Toughness" does is fill your roster with slow, old, and expensive players. Every franchise that has done this has suffered the consequences. It's amazing after watching what Chiarelli did with the Oilers that people still champion this line of thinking, and still throw straw men out there that people who favor skill don't think big, physical players have a role to play. They do, they just shouldn't ever be the main focus.
 

flyfysher

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Oh, I'm sorry, was he not taken in the first round?

Oh and since we're on the subject of "great hockey minds," how much are players like Brendan Gallagher (fifth round pick, since you're touting draft pedigree now) and Johnny Gaudreau (fourth round pick) vs. what Nikita Zadorov (first round pick) is making? Those great hockey minds in the business are the ones drafting those contracts.

There's a reason why Caufield wasn't selected higher. Go figure it out.
 

Pokecheque

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I never advocated goon hockey. I'd be surprised if Caufield could withstand some of Zadorov's hits which I regard as clean.

You obviously haven't seen much of Caufield's play, because in the USHL he gave as good as he got, and his game is very similar to DeBrincat's in that he knows how to get into open spaces on the ice to score. So far DeBrincat hasn't really suffered a ton of injuries because of Nikita Zadorov or any other physical player out there.

Lack of size doesn't necessarily equate to a decrease in durability.
 

McMetal

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I never advocated goon hockey. I'd be surprised if Caufield could withstand some of Zadorov's hits which I regard as clean.
The question remains if he can avoid getting hit at the next level, but he's going to be an impact goal scorer for sure. He'll have to modify his game a little from juniors (he was surprisingly scrappy in the games I saw), but his knack for floating into dangerous areas and letting loose his lethal shot is a skill that will definitely translate to the NHL. The kid just knows how to put pucks in the net, and that will win his team games, even in the playoffs.
 

Patagonia

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Sure. I don't get why this has to be such a polarizing argument every goddamn time. Am I really having to argue the value of an elite goal-scorer (let's just swap out Cole Caufield for Johnny Hockey for the sake of argument since CC hasn't yet made the NHL) over Nikita ****ing Zadorov!? We're talking about a reliable scoring forward vs. a #4-6 defender, and #4 is stretching it. The latter has an important role to play but if I'm being told he's more important to winning than the actual goal scorer, then I don't mind saying that's just a galaxy brain take.

The Avs obviously listen to their analytics guys, and it's pretty clear their front office is valuing size AND speed in addition to skill. I don't see what's so hard to understand.

I understand your argument on size vs talent.

Caufield is just a poor example. He has an excellent shot and high IQ, but size, poor stickhandling and average skating will hurt his chances for NHL success. Zadorov or any large defender can easily nullify his abilities and a normal check (not goon hockey) could be much more devastating compared to a normal size player. There was a reason he fell dramatically in the draft and still believe he'll bust.

Gaudreau is a much different case. Not really a fan, but his strong skating, excellent stick handing and high IQ allows him to adjust. Zadorov will have much more difficulties in nullifying due to his talent and speed. Playoff, the AVs successfully played a trap to limit his passing lanes. Players like Zadorov alone is less likely to have any success.

So your argument is also pretty weak. To have too much of the same type of player is not a guarantee of success. Zadorov/EJ/Cole/Graves adds size and toughness. Makar/Girard/Byram/Timmins provides the talent and finesse game. I believe teams to be success would need a balance.
 

Pokecheque

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There's a reason why Caufield wasn't selected higher. Go figure it out.

You're obviously the one who needs to figure it out if you're still arguing that a guy like Nikita Zadorov is more important to a team than Cole Caufield (and I assuming you're already counting on Caufield to pan out in the NHL, otherwise you wouldn't be making this argument).

So what if he went a little lower? Are you gonna tell me that if the Avs knew what they know now they'd still pick Duncan Siemens and other teams would still pass over Johnny Gaudreau until the fourth round!?
 

flyfysher

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You obviously haven't seen much of Caufield's play, because in the USHL he gave as good as he got, and his game is very similar to DeBrincat's in that he knows how to get into open spaces on the ice to score. So far DeBrincat hasn't really suffered a ton of injuries because of Nikita Zadorov or any other physical player out there.

Lack of size doesn't necessarily equate to a decrease in durability.

We'll see. He certainly has the motivation to prove himself. I saw Caufield get open in the limited views of watching him. He's good at that. But I'll wait to see how he handles the rigors of the NHL
 

flyfysher

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The question remains if he can avoid getting hit at the next level, but he's going to be an impact goal scorer for sure. He'll have to modify his game a little from juniors (he was surprisingly scrappy in the games I saw), but his knack for floating into dangerous areas and letting loose his lethal shot is a skill that will definitely translate to the NHL. The kid just knows how to put pucks in the net, and that will win his team games, even in the playoffs.

That's pretty much it.
 
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