Speculation: 2019-2020 Sharks Roster Discussion Part 9

[Dicdonya]

The problem with our PP is its too predictable.

I really liked the Peng article, but the one issue I had with it was when he tried to compare Ovi being predictable to any other PP being predictable. Ovi is just one player being predictable, and a generational shooter to boot, the rest of the PP is quite creative on their own, and at getting passing lanes to Ovi. They use him to open up other opportunities, and he can just straight up beat goalies even if they force him the puck. We don't have a shooter like that, not even close.

However our whole PP is as predictable as Ovi, minus the generational talent to get past it. Karlsson, Burns/Cooch, and Labanc are ALWAYS at the exact same spot. Hertl too, and he is basically useless on the PP after entering the zone, because they never have him do a single thing besides stand in front of the net. No movement whatsoever. No timing plays to screen the goalie as the shot is coming, as opposed to just hoping Hertl blocks the goalies vision while a shot comes from basically 3 spots on the ice every single time.

Our PP isn't atrocious every year because luckily we have had guys like Pavs, Thornton, Hertl, Karlsson and Burns who despite the utterly dense PP system, still find way to individually overcome it and score points. I can only imagine how good they could be if our coaches could be even slightly creative.

However they cant be, as is evidenced by the team as a whole being so predictable.

Oh yeah, and they took Hertl off the PP last game too, not sure if that was talked about in the GDT. Kane taking half the game off forced Hertl back on, but its just shows how stupid our coaches are. Sadly, the fact that Labanc made a nice shot, completely unrelated to anything anyone else was doing, will probably make DeBoer or Spott think it was a good move. As Peng pointed out however, Hertl is key to our PP both on faceoffs and zone entries, so despite the one off goal, our PP will probably stink even more with someone else taking faceoffs and trying to enter the zone. We will see I guess.

 

[Gunnin54]

Can we just let Burns be Burns and Karlsson be Karlsson let the horses run and work around them.

 

[Pavelski2112]

It could be a combination of the system and Burns being comfortable with it. It worked fine for him over the last few years when we had Pavs tipping his shots in. Erik played less than a season with Pavs and probably never got used to Pavs being there.

So either PDB is choosing to not ask Burns to do something else or he has and Burns is refusing to listen. Either option is not good.

Burns used to have far more creativity in the offensive zone. He wasn't just shooting from the point. He was great at creating space for his shot, and if he needed to, he could walk the puck in and basically play like a power forward. His unpredictability was a strong asset, but that's just not there anymore.

 

[hohosaregood]

Burns used to have far more creativity in the offensive zone. He wasn't just shooting from the point. He was great at creating space for his shot, and if he needed to, he could walk the puck in and basically play like a power forward. His unpredictability was a strong asset, but that's just not there anymore.

Agreed. Burns isn't as agile of a skater as Karlsson but last year, his ability to walk the blue line was right there with Karlsson. He's been a lot more of a straight line skater this year.

 

[Anomie2029]

Going on from what @Dicdonya said in regards to predictability, it is no coincidence that the best part of the Sharks Powerplay is when it has been ad lib play.
Example:

An unplanned zone entry, that was clean because it wasn't the usual drop pass approach. The Coyotes were waiting for it and it gave Karlsson time and space. This is something Makar has done really well with the Avs:


Now look at the PP goal against Florida:


There were quicker passes and movement between Labanc, Kane and Karlsson that made the PKers collapse before giving EK65 space to play to an open Labanc. Couture was an option should the PKers pressure differently. Far too often, the Sharks are moving the puck around, but aren't making the PKers commit and move. When they do, they get good looks.

 

[Dicdonya]

Going on from what @Dicdonya said in regards to predictability, it is no coincidence that the best part of the Sharks Powerplay is when it has been ad lib play.
Example:

An unplanned zone entry, that was clean because it wasn't the usual drop pass approach. The Coyotes were waiting for it and it gave Karlsson time and space. This is something Makar has done really well with the Avs:


Now look at the PP goal against Florida:


There were quicker passes and movement between Labanc, Kane and Karlsson that made the PKers collapse before giving EK65 space to play to an open Labanc. Couture was an option should the PKers pressure differently. Far too often, the Sharks are moving the puck around, but aren't making the PKers commit and move. When they do, they get good looks.

Yeah and watching that Labanc goal, who exactly is in position to take a shot at any point in that sequence?

Kane’s drifting two feet away from a few defenders, he’d be lucky to get a shot off unmolested.

Labanc has two defenders between him to even attempt a cross ice pass to Cooch, who would be unable to one time anything anyways because he would be catching the puck on his backhand.

Meier is completely out of that play, unavailable for anything other than to screen the goalie and pray a rebound drops right on his stick before 4 defenders collapse on him.

Karlsson has a shot available, but he’s also a mile from the goal and none of the forwards besides Meier have a shot in hell at tipping or redirecting the puck because they’re all either to his side and/or barely deeper in the zone than he is.

That whole sequence the only thing any of those guys can do is pass it between them until one of them decides to take a long distance, low danger shot. Luckily Labanc made a nice shot, but that’s what it was.

It’s like our coaches think a man advantage is just a time to give our players more time to shoot unmolested. Instead of using movement and superior numbers to create mismatches in the defense until an opening occurs to get a high quality chance off. Like it’s crazy how not a single one of those players is in the high danger shooting area during that sequence besides Meier who is not able to take a shot anyways because he’s facing the play not the net.

That Makar goal where he carries it in from his Dzone is a great example of the creativity this PP lacks. Makar didn’t even do anything crazy, but by just doing something unexpected, it created havoc in the Dzone and eventually Mack got a nice backhand off from 5 feet away from the net.

There is zero reason Karlsson or Burns can’t be trying shit like that.

 

[Anomie2029]

Yeah and watching that Labanc goal, who exactly is in position to take a shot at any point in that sequence?

Kane’s drifting two feet away from a few defenders, he’d be lucky to get a shot off unmolested.

Labanc has two defenders between him to even attempt a cross ice pass to Cooch, who would be unable to one time anything anyways because he would be catching the puck on his backhand.

Meier is completely out of that play, unavailable for anything other than to screen the goalie and pray a rebound drops right on his stick before 4 defenders collapse on him.

Karlsson has a shot available, but he’s also a mile from the goal and none of the forwards besides Meier have a shot in hell at tipping or redirecting the puck because they’re all either to his side and/or barely deeper in the zone than he is.

That whole sequence the only thing any of those guys can do is pass it between them until one of them decides to take a long distance, low danger shot. Luckily Labanc made a nice shot, but that’s what it was.

It’s like our coaches think a man advantage is just a time to give our players more time to shoot unmolested. Instead of using movement and superior numbers to create mismatches in the defense until an opening occurs to get a high quality chance off. Like it’s crazy how not a single one of those players is in the high danger shooting area during that sequence besides Meier who is not able to take a shot anyways because he’s facing the play not the net.

That Makar goal where he carries it in from his Dzone is a great example of the creativity this PP lacks. Makar didn’t even do anything crazy, but by just doing something unexpected, it created havoc in the Dzone and eventually Mack got a nice backhand off from 5 feet away from the net.

There is zero reason Karlsson or Burns can’t be trying **** like that.

I was actually using the Labanc goal as a good example of changing it up a little. Here is why it was a good play:

• Labanc carrying it down low on the side boards and then feeding it to Kane (who is in a dangerous position) forces the PKers to collapse. Kane probably can't get a good shot off, but he is in a position that they PKers need to respond.
• By quickly feeding it back to Labanc and then to Karlsson, it uses the speed of the puck to put the PKers out of position. EK65 has time to read the play and respond.
• As the PK-Forward moves high to pressure Karlsson, EK actually draws him to the away from the side he is defending and opening more space for Labanc to skate in with the puck. EK always has the Couture option.
• After Labanc gets the puck, he has to options to him - he can take a shot with a good screen from Meier, or he can pass in a lane that is created to Couture at the door step (as a result of the PKer pushing up on Karlsson).

The issue with the Sharks PP is generally they are passing the puck around but not forcing the PKers to move. This subtle play created good opportunity for the PP to take advantage.

 

[Dicdonya]

I was actually using the Labanc goal as a good example of changing it up a little. Here is why it was a good play:

• Labanc carrying it down low on the side boards and then feeding it to Kane (who is in a dangerous position) forces the PKers to collapse. Kane probably can't get a good shot off, but he is in a position that they PKers need to respond.
• By quickly feeding it back to Labanc and then to Karlsson, it uses the speed of the puck to put the PKers out of position. EK65 has time to read the play and respond.
• As the PK-Forward moves high to pressure Karlsson, EK actually draws him to the away from the side he is defending and opening more space for Labanc to skate in with the puck. EK always has the Couture option.
• After Labanc gets the puck, he has to options to him - he can take a shot with a good screen from Meier, or he can pass in a lane that is created to Couture at the door step (as a result of the PKer pushing up on Karlsson).

The issue with the Sharks PP is generally they are passing the puck around but not forcing the PKers to move. This subtle play created good opportunity for the PP to take advantage.

I mean none of what you said is wrong to me.

However look where the shot was released from? I think any PP on the planet can get shots off from above the faceoff circle on a PP. That was not exactly an impressive display of puck movement to my eyes. We see Labanc get passes like that, with time to shoot, from Karlsson 50 times a PP, but we certainly don't score anywhere even remotely close to reliably doing that play. Mainly because Labanc isn't a sniper, even though he has a decent shot, and because more often than not, taking long distance wristers isn't that productive.

So even though there was some movement, and that movement did open up a bit of space, its not impressive to me. Really imo it seems like that high forward wasn't aggressive enough getting back up to the point and gave Karlsson and Labanc more room than he should have, or the low forward didn't step up on Labanc sooner to block the shot or rush Labanc to shoot, moreso than the puck movement forced a defensive error or mismatch.

Anyways, it doesnt matter, Im pretty sure we are in aggreement about our PP being unimaginative for the most part, no need to nit pick minor differences.

 

[LadyStanley]

Ranking NHL microcores: Executives, scouts and a coach rate...

Paywall. Athletic ranked teams by their microcore: #1 center, defenseman, goalie.

Sharks had Couture, Karlsson, Jones

Ranked #17. Tampa/Boston tied for #1; Detroit #31.

Some controversy between EK65 vs Burns, but they went with youth.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Ranking NHL microcores: Executives, scouts and a coach rate...

Paywall. Athletic ranked teams by their microcore: #1 center, defenseman, goalie.

Sharks had Couture, Karlsson, Jones

Ranked #17. Tampa/Boston tied for #1; Detroit #31.

Some controversy between EK65 vs Burns, but they went with youth.

If they have seen us play this year there would not be much of a controversy ..

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Ranking NHL microcores: Executives, scouts and a coach rate...

Paywall. Athletic ranked teams by their microcore: #1 center, defenseman, goalie.

Sharks had Couture, Karlsson, Jones

Ranked #17. Tampa/Boston tied for #1; Detroit #31.

Some controversy between EK65 vs Burns, but they went with youth.

Erik Karlsson versus Brent Burns is a coin toss, so the younger player wins out, although it wasn’t universally agreed upon. “I would have had Burns there because Burns can defend,” said the coach.

An NHL coach said this. Please keep this in mind next time somebody tells you that NHL coaches are infallible.

 

[Pavelski2112]

An NHL coach said this. Please keep this in mind next time somebody tells you that NHL coaches are infallible.

Kevin where you at

 

[Pinkfloyd]

An NHL coach said this. Please keep this in mind next time somebody tells you that NHL coaches are infallible.

Well Burns can defend but he has long streaks where he simply doesn't. Same as Karlsson. Still the coach is stupid for believing that Burns somehow can but Karlsson can't. That makes no sense.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Well Burns can defend but he has long streaks where he simply doesn't. Same as Karlsson. Still the coach is stupid for believing that Burns somehow can but Karlsson can't. That makes no sense.

It’s not just saying that Burns can defend because I actually agree that Burns has shown the ability to do so in spurts but it’s the context of that quote as a whole. It is implied that he is saying “unlike Karlsson, Burns can actually defend.” And no matter how you look at it Karlsson is just far better than Burns is at defending.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Well Burns can defend but he has long streaks where he simply doesn't. Same as Karlsson. Still the coach is stupid for believing that Burns somehow can but Karlsson can't. That makes no sense.

This league is based off of narratives rather than actual data.

 

[fasterthanlight]

I feel like we are wasting Karlsson on the PP. Pretty much all we have him doing is dishing to labanc or couture on the boards, who give it back to him, and then the cycle repeats until a low-percentage shot comes. I actually can't remember what a creative powerplay looks like anymore... What do other teams do?

 

[hohosaregood]

It’s not just saying that Burns can defend because I actually agree that Burns has shown the ability to do so in spurts but it’s the context of that quote as a whole. It is implied that he is saying “unlike Karlsson, Burns can actually defend.” And no matter how you look at it Karlsson is just far better than Burns is at defending.

Yea I don't really get what it is about Karlsson that just makes people shit on him every chance they get. There's not much about him to be offended about. He's kinda vain I guess?

 

[Herschel]

The Shark's PP is lacking the same thing the top 2 lines are missing, which is a creative playmaker. None of the big 4 forwards are high-end playmakers. Labanc is the closest forward and he is really not overly creative. This really limits what you can do on the PP.

 

[Anomie2029]

Yea I don't really get what it is about Karlsson that just makes people **** on him every chance they get. There's not much about him to be offended about. He's kinda vain I guess?

He isn't North American.

 

[CupfortheSharks]

Can someone who is good at looking up these things please help me. Since Vlasic and Karlsson have been paired, have they been facing a heavy dose of the other team’s best line?

 

[OrrNumber4]

An NHL coach said this. Please keep this in mind next time somebody tells you that NHL coaches are infallible.

Try and be charitable. For the first 15ish games of the season, Karlsson was a tire-fire defensively. Maybe the coach thinks that that is what Karlsson has devolved to.

Over the course of their careers, I would definitely say it is debatable that Karlsson has been superior defensively to Burns.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Just need to make it through the 20th. Witcher comes out and then Letterkenny right after.

 

[weastern bias]

Yea I don't really get what it is about Karlsson that just makes people **** on him every chance they get. There's not much about him to be offended about. He's kinda vain I guess?

He wouldn't get into a fistfight on television with a guy he thought tacitly supported the public harassment and defamation of his wife while he was trying to play a children's game for millions of dollars

What a putz

 

[Patty Ice]

Mario Ferraro feature on the Athletic

Mario Ferraro's 'infectious personality' and steady play...

 

[tealzamboni]

An NHL coach said this. Please keep this in mind next time somebody tells you that NHL coaches are infallible.

Pete DeBoer provided that quote.