Prospect Info: 2019-2020 Senators Prospects Watch Part II

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I'm so excited about JBD. I think the Sens have the luxury of having so many flashy pieces right now which includes both prospects (Batherson, Norris, Brown, even Thomson, Formenton, and Abramov have a certain flash to them) to go along with super exciting picks that JBD sometimes gets a bit lost.

Quite frankly, I'm so hopeful that JBD can be the stabilizing force on the Sens blueline for years to come. He could realistically be the guy who averages the most TOI on the team forthe next decade (okay well likely behind Chabot) as I see him as an all-situation defender. His defence is so mature and stable for his age, but what I love about him is his offence. When he was first drafted, I actually saw him more as an offensive guy. This guy has done nothing but produce fantastic point totals with a + shot and very consistent puck movement. When you combine that with his skating, I just don't see why offence is rarely discussed amongst prospect evaluators when it comes to JBD. Even when watching the WJC, he kept being referred to as a defence-first, shutdown defender which of course is a compliment to his defensice game but I really think it doesn't do his offensive traits justice!

I think JBD has what it takes to be a 10goal, 20-25assist guy (assuming he gets some PP time) while playing 22+ minutes a night!

Yea, JBD and Daccord easilyyyy my fav non flashy prospects(maybe even my fav current prospects period).

I think JBD gonna be the Hjalmarsson/Seabrook of this team. Super excited to see him come over. I love his game. I also love Jaros’ game and I think Mann said hey was most improved player and consistent player on the AHL team this year or something.

 

[Micklebot]

Yeah but the problem is people take him seriously just because he's a journalist. The whole concept makes no sense. What if a hockey player or scout started critiquing a journalist's writing. It's outside their area of expertise; fine if they have opinions but they shouldn't expect anyone to listen.

He worked for Future considerations making scouting reports for Q and OHL players and was with McKeens writing scouting reports for their draft guide.

I don't care for his lists but i don't think it's fair to brush him off as just a journalist. He has experience doing this with reputable sources, not just the Athletic or Blogs.

 

[aragorn]

It's another example of the wide array of different opinions & preferences to what some people think are more important features to a hockey player's game than what others might think who prefer different things. I like tough hockey & others like finesse hockey. There is no right way to do things, there are always people that come up with other ways to do things & get the job done that are different than what we might do.

Hockey players like people are all different & unique with their own set of skills & ways to play the game. Sometimes it works at one level & not another & sometimes their way works at every level for them. It's up to coaches to take all that talent & turn it into a cohesive group that plays well together & gets the job done, which is so much easier said than done, especially for an entire season. But the good ones do.

 

[Xspyrit]

I believe he is off base with Norris - everything I watched last season (even limited NHL time) indicates to me that he will find a way to excel with Ottawa. He has a quick shot and might end up with the best one-timer as soon as he joins the club plus he has the agility to get to the right spots on the ice. All that after having missed, what, 8 or 9 months due to his shoulder injury?

I am very high on him and actually ranked him as our #1 prospect ahead of Batherson in the poll going on now...it hurt me to do that as I love Batherson but at this point I do think Norris may be a more effective player (even if he doesn't statistically out perform Batherson).

My thoughts exactly on Norris vs Batherson. I see Norris as a very efficient NHL player while Batherson will put more highlight reel moves. Hard to say who will produce more though, always depends on health but it will mostly depend on who they play with and how much PP time they get. With accumulating so much talent, PP time will have to be hardly fought for.

The AHL rookie of the year and possible MVP is 40th in the league?

Sens prospect

If Norris was a Leafs or Habs prospect, he'd be top-10.

Ex : Not sure I would trade Norris for Caufield straight up

Here's Wheeler Top-10 :

1. Dylan Cozens
2. Trevor Zegras
3. Cole Caufield
4. Alex Newhook
5. Bowen Byram
6. Kirill Kaprizov
7. Alex Turcotte
8. Arthur Kaliyev
9. Peyton Krebs
10. Nick Robertson
    (…)
    48. Alexander Romanov (Montréal)

 

[Alf Silfversson]

My thoughts exactly on Norris vs Batherson. I see Norris as a very efficient NHL player while Batherson will put more highlight reel moves. Hard to say who will produce more though, always depends on health but it will mostly depend on who they play with and how much PP time they get. With accumulating so much talent, PP time will have to be hardly fought for.



Sens prospect

If Norris was a Leafs or Habs prospect, he'd be top-10.

Ex : Not sure I would trade Norris for Caufield straight up

Here's Wheeler Top-10 :

1. Dylan Cozens
2. Trevor Zegras
3. Cole Caufield
4. Alex Newhook
5. Bowen Byram
6. Kirill Kaprizov
7. Alex Turcotte
8. Arthur Kaliyev
9. Peyton Krebs
10. Nick Robertson
    (…)
    48. Alexander Romanov (Montréal)

LOL at Robertson that much higher than Norris. Ditto for Peyton Krebs.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Kalyiev and Caufield

 

[Xspyrit]

LOL at Robertson that much higher than Norris. Ditto for Peyton Krebs.

But why is Arthur Kaliyev 8th on that list while Pinto didn't even make the top-50? As it was said on last page, he is ranked in the 60s/70s

Is it because it was proven that Kaliyev could keep a similar pace in the OHL in his D+1 season?

Wasn't Pinto better and more impactful in the WJC?

Pinto was drafted before Kaliyev just one year ago, many NHL teams with pro scouting passed on Kaliyev. Maybe they'll end up all wrong, but until then why the 8th OA vs 60s/70s?

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

But why is Arthur Kaliyev 8th on that list while Pinto didn't even make the top-50? As it was said on last page, he is ranked in the 60s/70s

Is it because it was proven that Kaliyev could keep a similar pace in the OHL in his D+1 season?

Wasn't Pinto better and more impactful in the WJC?

Pinto was drafted before Kaliyev just one year ago, many NHL teams with pro scouting passed on Kaliyev. Maybe they'll end up all wrong, but until then why the 8th OA vs 60s/70s?

Because people are biased towards stats and trying to look smart

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

The AHL rookie of the year and possible MVP is 40th in the league?

But why is Arthur Kaliyev 8th on that list while Pinto didn't even make the top-50? As it was said on last page, he is ranked in the 60s/70s

Is it because it was proven that Kaliyev could keep a similar pace in the OHL in his D+1 season?

Wasn't Pinto better and more impactful in the WJC?

Pinto was drafted before Kaliyev just one year ago, many NHL teams with pro scouting passed on Kaliyev. Maybe they'll end up all wrong, but until then why the 8th OA vs 60s/70s?

What a horrific list. Absolutely hilarious. Don’t wanna see that guys rankings here again.

 

[Agent Zub]

Maybe he is projecting skill levels? Its one thing to be skilled enough to dominate in lower leagues it's a completely different beast to have the skill level to dominate in the NHL.

Kaliyev has an exceptional talent level and some issues that through maturation and proper coaching can be ironed out. He absolutely has the skillset to become a star in the NHL, even if it's very unlikely so long as he coasts on his skill.

Pinto on the other hand has very little chance to be a star at the NHL level. His natural skillset and creativity are just not high enough. He has a decent chance to make it as a complimentary player though.

Another way to look at it is who is the better prospect?

Mike Hoffman or Curtis Lazar?

Lazar was a player who played the "right way" and had a pro mentality that was sure earn him a letter at the next level, who could score against junior goalies and earned WJC glory by having pucks bounced off of him.

Or is Hoffman the better prospect? Moody, reserved, not good enough for Team Canada, very high skill level but major flags that he would have to work on.

I'm not saying Kaliyev and Pinto are gonna follow the exact same trajectory as these are all unique players unto themselves. But this outrage about a ranking is a bit much when looking back there ends up being SO much variance between the consensus rankings and what actually ends up happening.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Maybe he is projecting skill levels? Its one thing to be skilled enough to dominate in lower leagues it's a completely different beast to have the skill level to dominate in the NHL.

Kaliyev has an exceptional talent level and some issues that through maturation and proper coaching can be ironed out. He absolutely has the skillset to become a star in the NHL, even if it's very unlikely so long as he coasts on his skill.

Pinto on the other hand has very little chance to be a star at the NHL level. His natural skillset and creativity are just not high enough. He has a decent chance to make it as a complimentary player though.

Another way to look at it is who is the better prospect?

Mike Hoffman or Curtis Lazar?

Lazar was a player who played the "right way" and had a pro mentality that was sure earn him a letter at the next level, who could score against junior goalies and earned WJC glory by having pucks bounced off of him.

Or is Hoffman the better prospect? Moody, reserved, not good enough for Team Canada, very high skill level but major flags that he would have to work on.

I'm not saying Kaliyev and Pinto are gonna follow the exact same trajectory as these are all unique players unto themselves. But this outrage about a ranking is a bit much when looking back there ends up being SO much variance between the consensus rankings and what actually ends up happening.

Your first paragraph is kind of contradictory. When your skill is simply standing in a spot and shooting the puck against kids it’s not that valuable. I’d be shocked if Kaliyev became a star in the NHL, but this isn’t really the point. In no world is Kaliyev the 8th best prospect in the world. You don’t go from second round to 8th best prospect in one year with no huge difference from your draft season.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Maybe he is projecting skill levels? Its one thing to be skilled enough to dominate in lower leagues it's a completely different beast to have the skill level to dominate in the NHL.

Kaliyev has an exceptional talent level and some issues that through maturation and proper coaching can be ironed out. He absolutely has the skillset to become a star in the NHL, even if it's very unlikely so long as he coasts on his skill.

Pinto on the other hand has very little chance to be a star at the NHL level. His natural skillset and creativity are just not high enough. He has a decent chance to make it as a complimentary player though.

Another way to look at it is who is the better prospect?

Mike Hoffman or Curtis Lazar?

Lazar was a player who played the "right way" and had a pro mentality that was sure earn him a letter at the next level, who could score against junior goalies and earned WJC glory by having pucks bounced off of him.

Or is Hoffman the better prospect? Moody, reserved, not good enough for Team Canada, very high skill level but major flags that he would have to work on.

I'm not saying Kaliyev and Pinto are gonna follow the exact same trajectory as these are all unique players unto themselves. But this outrage about a ranking is a bit much when looking back there ends up being SO much variance between the consensus rankings and what actually ends up happening.

By this criteria Batherson should be top 5-10 then for projected skill.

 

[Agent Zub]

Your first paragraph is kind of contradictory. When your skill is simply standing in a spot and shooting the puck against kids it’s not that valuable. I’d be shocked if Kaliyev became a star in the NHL, but this isn’t really the point. In no world is Kaliyev the 8th best prospect in the world. You don’t go from second round to 8th best prospect in one year with no huge difference from your draft season.

That's a huge mischaracterization of Kaliyevs game. He's got great vision, hands and playmaking instincts as well as a big frame that should fill out. Pinto's offensive game is a lot more reliant to being tasked as a trigger man/net front rather than being a playmaking creator. Kaliyev is a creator.

Kaliyev is also only like 3 or 4 months older than guys like Quinn, Rossi, and Lafreniere.He effectively already has two 100 point seasons before his 19th birthday. This while playing on a bad team, this season he led his team in scoring by like 40 points.

He's definitely got the raw skillset to be considered a top 15 prospect in the world so I don't see why having him ranked 8th or ahead of Pinto is so crazy.

I do agree that Kaliyev has a long way to go to become a star at the nhl level. But he does have the latent ability. Pinto does not have the latent ability.

 

[Agent Zub]

By this criteria Batherson should be top 5-10 then for projected skill.

Yea Batherson definitely has top 10 level talent. But 18th isnt too bad, theres a lot of skill in the league and Batherson is a late bloomer and still yet to really become an NHL regular. You can see the talent but he has a shit load of work to do to get stronger and faster.

I'm personally not a fan of his list but but there's a human element to development that makes every list/ranking wrong to some degree.

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

That's a huge mischaracterization of Kaliyevs game. He's got great vision, hands and playmaking instincts as well as a big frame that should fill out. Pinto's offensive game is a lot more reliant to being tasked as a trigger man/net front rather than being a playmaking creator. Kaliyev is a creator.

Kaliyev is also only like 3 or 4 months older than guys like Quinn, Rossi, and Lafreniere.He effectively already has two 100 point seasons before his 19th birthday. This while playing on a bad team, this season he led his team in scoring by like 40 points.

He's definitely got the raw skillset to be considered a top 15 prospect in the world so I don't see why having him ranked 8th or ahead of Pinto is so crazy.

I do agree that Kaliyev has a long way to go to become a star at the nhl level. But he does have the latent ability. Pinto does not have the latent ability.

I don’t care about him being ranked above Pinto. I just don’t see how a guy who the actual hockey world didn’t think that highly of who has done nothing to improve his stock becomes a top 8 prospect in the game. To me he is a pretty one one dimensional player (I don’t think he can drive a line in the pros) and his draft +1 season was not unexpected. He slipped to the second round with everyone already knowing he could dominate the CHL. To me he was an afterthought against his true peers at the WJC. I would take the opinion of nhl scouts over people who gush over junior stats

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

Yea Batherson definitely has top 10 level talent. But 18th isnt too bad, theres a lot of skill in the league and Batherson is a late bloomer and still yet to really become an NHL regular. You can see the talent but he has a shit load of work to do to get stronger and faster.

I'm personally not a fan of his list but but there's a human element to development that makes every list/ranking wrong to some degree.

The ranking of batherson vs Kalyiev is a great example or how bad this list is. I would wager mostly everyone on this board would not trade Batherson for Kaliyev. One has proven to be a star against non CHLers and has just as much raw talent. It’s comical. I wouldn’t trade any of our top 3-4 prospects for Kaliyev and it’s a debate if I would trade any for Caufield.

 

[Micklebot]

Your first paragraph is kind of contradictory. When your skill is simply standing in a spot and shooting the puck against kids it’s not that valuable. I’d be shocked if Kaliyev became a star in the NHL, but this isn’t really the point. In no world is Kaliyev the 8th best prospect in the world. You don’t go from second round to 8th best prospect in one year with no huge difference from your draft season.

The thing is Wheeler had him ranked 13th going into the draft so in his evaluation he didn't go from 2nd round to 8th.

Also, i think some teams had him on their DND list, so they might have seen him as top end of the draft talent.

 

[Xspyrit]

Maybe he is projecting skill levels? Its one thing to be skilled enough to dominate in lower leagues it's a completely different beast to have the skill level to dominate in the NHL.

Kaliyev has an exceptional talent level and some issues that through maturation and proper coaching can be ironed out. He absolutely has the skillset to become a star in the NHL, even if it's very unlikely so long as he coasts on his skill.

Pinto on the other hand has very little chance to be a star at the NHL level. His natural skillset and creativity are just not high enough. He has a decent chance to make it as a complimentary player though.

Another way to look at it is who is the better prospect?

Mike Hoffman or Curtis Lazar?

Lazar was a player who played the "right way" and had a pro mentality that was sure earn him a letter at the next level, who could score against junior goalies and earned WJC glory by having pucks bounced off of him.

Or is Hoffman the better prospect? Moody, reserved, not good enough for Team Canada, very high skill level but major flags that he would have to work on.

I'm not saying Kaliyev and Pinto are gonna follow the exact same trajectory as these are all unique players unto themselves. But this outrage about a ranking is a bit much when looking back there ends up being SO much variance between the consensus rankings and what actually ends up happening.

What you are saying makes sense and I have absolutely no problem ranking Kaliyev over Pinto but 8th vs 60-70th? This is where it's ridiculous.

And like "FormentonTheFuture" said : You don’t go from second round to 8th best prospect in one year with no huge difference from your draft season.

And then like ReginKarlssonLehner said, Wheeler's ranking doesn't seem consistent if Batherson is not ranked higher

He's definitely got the raw skillset to be considered a top 15 prospect in the world so I don't see why having him ranked 8th or ahead of Pinto is so crazy.

Again, you might have missed the initial inquiry (which was my post). It's really not about being ranked "ahead" of Pinto, it's the 8th vs 70th that seems outlandish

 

[Icelevel]

Sens included in Scott Wheelers prospect rankings:

18. Drake Batherson, RW, 22 (Ottawa Senators — 121st overall, 2017)


19. Erik Brannstrom, LHD, 20 (Ottawa Senators — 15th overall, 2017)



38. Jacob Bernard-Docker, RHD, 20 (Ottawa Senators — 26th overall, 2018)



40. Josh Norris, C, 21 (Ottawa Senators — 19th overall, 2017)



According to a comment response, Logan Brown, Vitalii Abramov and Lassi Thompson were all in very close consideration, as were Formenton & Pinto to a lesser extent (ranked in the 60s/70s). We were still tied for the most appearances on the list. Not a huge fan of Wheeler but still somewhat interesting info

Don Brennan category. Some people are not worth our time. Distraction, ignore

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Sens prospect

If Norris was a Leafs or Habs prospect, he'd be top-10.



Here's Wheeler Top-10 :

1. Dylan Cozens
2. Trevor Zegras
3. Cole Caufield
4. Alex Newhook
5. Bowen Byram
6. Kirill Kaprizov
7. Alex Turcotte
8. Arthur Kaliyev
9. Peyton Krebs
10. Nick Robertson
    (…)
    48. Alexander Romanov (Montréal)

Agreed.

kaliyev there I don’t like.

that draft must have been tough for us. It was for me at home. Newhook Harley and krebs all right there. Dropping. And the bam bam bam all three gone. I wonder if dorion was trying to fade up for newhook

 

[Samsquanch]

But why is Arthur Kaliyev 8th on that list while Pinto didn't even make the top-50? As it was said on last page, he is ranked in the 60s/70s

Is it because it was proven that Kaliyev could keep a similar pace in the OHL in his D+1 season?

Wasn't Pinto better and more impactful in the WJC?

Pinto was drafted before Kaliyev just one year ago, many NHL teams with pro scouting passed on Kaliyev. Maybe they'll end up all wrong, but until then why the 8th OA vs 60s/70s?

Dont forget Robertson, also in the top 10 ahead of Pinto. They both had good tourneys, but all things considered Pinto was better at the WJC, and his college season was a huge coming out party for him. His coaches at ND are drooling over him.

Pinto has a ridiculous ceiling imo, hes a late bloomer with huge athletic talent and abilities, and we got lucky that the Sens made the right gamble on him. He was absolutely not the right pick but could be a serious steal if he keeps trending this way.

 

[BoardsofCanada]

I remember Wheeler had Tkachuk in the twenties after the 2018 draft and he had Zadina 4th or something like that. Like everyone else, Wheeler doesn't really know jack when it comes to prospects. His bias plays the biggest role in his rankings.

Out of curiosity, where was Raphael Lavoie on Wheeler's ranking?

 

[Xspyrit]

Dont forget Robertson, also in the top 10 ahead of Pinto. They both had good tourneys, but all things considered Pinto was better at the WJC, and his college season was a huge coming out party for him. His coaches at ND are drooling over him.

Pinto has a ridiculous ceiling imo, hes a late bloomer with huge athletic talent and abilities, and we got lucky that the Sens made the right gamble on him. He was absolutely not the right pick but could be a serious steal if he keeps trending this way.

I agree, if he trends on the same path in the next 2 years like he did in the last 2 years, we'll have a heck of a player on our hands.

But even then, I don't mind if someone has more faith in Kaliyev at this point, no problem but the 8th vs ~60-70... ridiculous

It would be like having Drydale at 6th and Byram at 50th after this draft. I'm pretty convinced Drysdale ends up the better player but can't rank them like that

 

[aragorn]

I would like to point out one thing though, while a certain player may not be a good playmaker or drive a line he might be great at finishing plays. OV doesn't really drive a line or is a great playmaker, but he can put it in the net better than almost anyone in history excluding Gretzky.

Pinto could also turn into an effective finisher in the NHL, while he may never be anywhere near as good as OV he could do enough to help Ottawa win games with some effective finishing skills when needed. So could Formenton in a different way with speed & Norris with determination. Both Pinto & Formenton attack the net, take shots, look for rebounds & exploit weaknesses defensively with their size, grit & determination. It's not pretty it just looks that way .... but effective.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Don Brennan category. Some people are not worth our time. Distraction, ignore

I will be shocked. SHOCKED of kaliyev does what either brown, batherson or norris did in the ahl in their rookie years