Prospect Info: 2019-2020 Senators Prospects Watch Part II

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Johnny Hanson

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His agent says that he wants Pinto to stay in NCAA 1 more year, then go directly to NHL (so no AHL).
Well there’s a difference between what a player wants and what an organization thinks is best for a players development. Luckily the player has very little say in the process because everyone of them would be going straight to the NHL if it were up to them.
 

Sweatred

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This AHL season has been extremely encouraging for Norris, Formenton, Batherson etc. It’s hard to justify not putting Pinto into that development machinery unless he clearly isn’t ready.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

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This AHL season has been extremely encouraging for Norris, Formenton, Batherson etc. It’s hard to justify not putting Pinto into that development machinery unless he clearly isn’t ready.
Not really. Very easy decision to let Pinto be the #1 guy in a program like UND vs maybe playing 3rd line minutes (or worse) in the AHL. All about opportunity. You don't want him to get the Davidsson or Veroneau treatment.
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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Please provide this metric bc I think you just made it up. He's been good, but not amazing. Players who played only one year in College had amazing years. That's the difference. Again, your size fascination is clouding you.

If Pinto was playing in the CHL, his options next year would be AHL or NHL.

I think it's you that is a bit clouded here. He can jump to the AHL like any other CHL grad. And as a 32 overall that has improved his stock since draft day, making that jump would be considered normal. What might typically cause an issue with that jump is size and strength which @aragorn has rightly pointed out is not an issue in this case

I don't have a bone in this fight and personally don't care where he plays....but him deciding to turn pro this coming summer would not in any way be advancing his development. Again, if he was in the CHL it'd be his only option because guys like him don't play as over agers.
 

JD1

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Where on earth would pinto play in our pro ranks?

brown Norris chlapik sswarz. ? He doesn’t get in on center in the AHL. And if anyone thinks he’s NHL ready then that’s another argument that I don’t think many will take you up on.

he’s having a “decent” year in college. Not blowing anyone away. Just chill the **** out lmao

How many combined games you think Brown, Norris and Chaplik play in the NHL next year?

If Brown isn't in the NHL next year, he's teetering on bust imo
 

Sweatred

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Not really. Very easy decision to let Pinto be the #1 guy in a program like UND vs maybe playing 3rd line minutes (or worse) in the AHL. All about opportunity. You don't want him to get the Davidsson or Veroneau treatment.

Oh I agree. But the same could have been said for Norris. In the end someone with eyes on him has to figure out if his development is best served with UND or BEL.
 

God Says No

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Mar 16, 2012
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If Pinto was playing in the CHL, his options next year would be AHL or NHL.

I think it's you that is a bit clouded here. He can jump to the AHL like any other CHL grad. And as a 32 overall that has improved his stock since draft day, making that jump would be considered normal. What might typically cause an issue with that jump is size and strength which @aragorn has rightly pointed out is not an issue in this case

I don't have a bone in this fight and personally don't care where he plays....but him deciding to turn pro this coming summer would not in any way be advancing his development. Again, if he was in the CHL it'd be his only option because guys like him don't play as over agers.

I know he can jump to the AHL, that's not the argument here. The argument is whether he should or not. My argument is that he should not as he's not dominating the NCAA. Go through a list of players who played only one year. Then look at what they did in that one year. They absolutely destroyed, and it didn't make sense to stay. Pinto has been good, but not amazing. I think best bet is to stay for another year. What's the hurry?

Also, I'm pretty sure if he played in the CHL, he could play there next year as an overager.
 

FormentonTheFuture

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Sep 29, 2017
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I know he can jump to the AHL, that's not the argument here. The argument is whether he should or not. My argument is that he should not as he's not dominating the NCAA. Go through a list of players who played only one year. Then look at what they did in that one year. They absolutely destroyed, and it didn't make sense to stay. Pinto has been good, but not amazing. I think best bet is to stay for another year. What's the hurry?

Also, I'm pretty sure if he played in the CHL, he could play there next year as an overager.

He could but would definitely not. Never happens with legit prospects.
 

God Says No

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He could but would definitely not. Never happens with legit prospects.

Oh man, you guys need to read better. I never said if he should or not, the clarification is whether he could.

JD1 stated:

"If Pinto was playing in the CHL, his options next year would be AHL or NHL"

Which is not true. I believe he could play as an overager.

Now if Pinto played his whole career in the CHL, and proved he was too good for that league, I would have no qualms in him playing in the AHL. BUT he hasn't. He's only had one year of NCAA where he was only "good". So my argument (again) is that he should stay for one more year and refine his skill there instead of turning pro, which I believe is better for his development. Doesn't matter how big and strong he is.
 

JD1

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I know he can jump to the AHL, that's not the argument here. The argument is whether he should or not. My argument is that he should not as he's not dominating the NCAA. Go through a list of players who played only one year. Then look at what they did in that one year. They absolutely destroyed, and it didn't make sense to stay. Pinto has been good, but not amazing. I think best bet is to stay for another year. What's the hurry?

Also, I'm pretty sure if he played in the CHL, he could play there next year as an overager.

Technically yes he could play in the CHL as an overager. But in reality that pretty much never happens, and it's even rarer than never for a kid that was drafted as high as he was and that excelled at the WJC. Overagers are typically undrafted or underdeveloped and he's neither.

I don't care one way or the other. I think it'd only be an emergency situation where he saw time with the big club anyway.

Knowing he is physically developed enough to play, turning pro and targeting the mid 21 season with 100 AHL games under his belt might seem like a reasonable plan to him and his agent
 

aragorn

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Not really. Very easy decision to let Pinto be the #1 guy in a program like UND vs maybe playing 3rd line minutes (or worse) in the AHL. All about opportunity. You don't want him to get the Davidsson or Veroneau treatment.

I believe someone else somewhere has mentioned that Pinto has already made up his mind to stay in school next season, whether that is true or just speculation remains to be seen, so this could all be a moot point. Having said that though, I'm really not sure why you think Pinto would play on the 3rd line in the AHL to start his career? Maybe he plays there to start the season, but it doesn't mean he stays there all yr & maybe like Norris (or even Formenton) who so many had questions about, Pinto goes on to play very well. IMO Pinto is a much higher valued prospect than either of those two guys you mentioned & because of that I would guess would get much more rope in more situations to succeed, especially if they put him on RW with Norris & Formenton. Let's not forget Ottawa moved up to get him, Veronneau was a unsigned NCAA free agent & Davidsson came over as part of a trade, Pinto was one of the US best players in the WJC tournament & one of UND best players on a very good team already in his first yr there.

Physically Pinto is a big strong guy already & IMO because of that should not have a problem with the physicality of the AHL pro game. He didn't seem to have a problem with the physical play in the WJC against his peers in his first WJC appearance which tends to be a physical tournament especially when they get into the playoff rounds. Pinto can play centre or RW & this org is a little thin on RW & he may already be better than some of the players in Belleville now. I could care less either way whether he stays in school or not, but IMO he looks ready to me to take the next step. UND has a pretty good team this yr & could challenge for a National title in the Frozen Four, if they make it that far. If they win a championship I think the chances of him leaving school increases, but if they don't & he wants to return to win one next season that could have some bearing. That's my observations regarding Pinto.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

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I believe someone else somewhere has mentioned that Pinto has already made up his mind to stay in school next season, whether that is true or just speculation remains to be seen, so this could all be a moot point. Having said that though, I'm really not sure why you think Pinto would play on the 3rd line in the AHL to start his career? Maybe he plays there to start the season, but it doesn't mean he stays there all yr & maybe like Norris (or even Formenton) who so many had questions about, Pinto goes on to play very well. IMO Pinto is a much higher valued prospect than either of those two guys you mentioned & because of that I would guess would get much more rope in more situations to succeed, especially if they put him on RW with Norris & Formenton. Let's not forget Ottawa moved up to get him, Veronneau was a unsigned NCAA free agent & Davidsson came over as part of a trade, Pinto was one of the US best players in the WJC tournament & one of UND best players on a very good team already in his first yr there.

Physically Pinto is a big strong guy already & IMO because of that should not have a problem with the physicality of the AHL pro game. He didn't seem to have a problem with the physical play in the WJC against his peers in his first WJC appearance which tends to be a physical tournament especially when they get into the playoff rounds. Pinto can play centre or RW & this org is a little thin on RW & he may already be better than some of the players in Belleville now. I could care less either way whether he stays in school or not, but IMO he looks ready to me to take the next step. UND has a pretty good team this yr & could challenge for a National title in the Frozen Four, if they make it that far. If they win a championship I think the chances of him leaving school increases, but if they don't & he wants to return to win one next season that could have some bearing. That's my observations regarding Pinto.
A lot of questionable content here:

1. Pinto be a higher valued prospect than Formenton and Norris. Highly debatable given Norris is former first and Formenton was a very high profile guy on Team Canada, London and made a NHL team as a 18 year old.

2. Moving up for Pinto. That never happened.

The physical part of the AHL isn't really a concern for most guys. The pace and lack of time to make decisions is what guys have to adapt to. Whether Pinto is physically mature or not isn't really a big factor into him making the jump and its not really a big factor for most 1st and 2nd round picks.

The biggest factor is opportunity and Pinto is 100% guaranteed the opportunity he needs in North Dakota as opposed to Belleville. Plus, we don't clog up the ranks for other prospects to get ice time like Kelly, Kastelic or Davidsson for example.
 
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Viletho

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Not really. Very easy decision to let Pinto be the #1 guy in a program like UND vs maybe playing 3rd line minutes (or worse) in the AHL. All about opportunity. You don't want him to get the Davidsson or Veroneau treatment.

I believe someone else somewhere has mentioned that Pinto has already made up his mind to stay in school next season, whether that is true or just speculation remains to be seen, so this could all be a moot point. Having said that though, I'm really not sure why you think Pinto would play on the 3rd line in the AHL to start his career? Maybe he plays there to start the season, but it doesn't mean he stays there all yr & maybe like Norris (or even Formenton) who so many had questions about, Pinto goes on to play very well. IMO Pinto is a much higher valued prospect than either of those two guys you mentioned & because of that I would guess would get much more rope in more situations to succeed, especially if they put him on RW with Norris & Formenton. Let's not forget Ottawa moved up to get him, Veronneau was a unsigned NCAA free agent & Davidsson came over as part of a trade, Pinto was one of the US best players in the WJC tournament & one of UND best players on a very good team already in his first yr there.

A lot of questionable content here:

1. Pinto be a higher valued prospect than Formenton and Norris. Highly debatable given Norris is former first and Formenton was a very high profile guy on Team Canada, London and made a NHL team as a 18 year old.

Unless i'm missing something Aragorn was talking about Davidsson and Veronneau when he said the two guys you mentioned. He didn't said he had greater value then Norris and Formenton. He believe he could get the same kind of threatment if he came to the AHL which i believed he would if the result shows.

Anyway, he will probably go back to UND for the 2020/2021 season then come to the AHL at the end of the year.
 

FolignoQuantumLeap

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Unless i'm missing something Aragorn was talking about Davidsson and Veronneau when he said the two guys you mentioned. He didn't said he had greater value then Norris and Formenton.
If that's the case then I agree but both those guys were more experienced guys and probably more ready for the AHL than Pinto would be next year. That's debatable but I think their experience puts them in a similar level of readiness despite being lesser prospects. That's not even to say that Veronneau and Davidsson weren't ready to make a big impact, it's just a pure numbers game for them in reality. There's just a lot of quality forwards there and I don't expect that to change by next year unless Dorion is very busy this offseason. Given we have a million draft picks, I'd think even more guys will join Belleville one way or another.
 
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Viletho

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If that's the case then I agree but both those guys were more experience guys and probably more ready for the AHL than Pinto would be next year. That's debatable but I think their experience puts them in a similar level of readiness despite being lesser prospects.

I agree that he should go back and dominated.

For all the flaws the Sens has shown last few years, they seems to want to let the next wave of prospects devellop properly.

If not, L. Brown would be in the NHL, Batherson would have never go back to the AHL. But that's just my opinion
 

ChurchOfAlfie

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Max Guenette is still the leading scoring defenseman on his team, 4th overall. He's tied for 8th in scoring for U20 defensemen in the QMJHL. 31 points in 53 games.

Also not sure if the organization is still keeping an eye on Pius Suter, but he's leading the NLA in both goals and points, with 25 goals and 47 points in 46 games. Still just 23.
 
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Samsquanch

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Max Guenette is still the leading scoring defenseman on his team, 4th overall. He's tied for 8th in scoring for U20 defensemen in the QMJHL. 31 points in 53 games.

Also not sure if the organization is still keeping an eye on Pius Suter, but he's leading the NLA in both goals and points, with 25 goals and 47 points in 46 games. Still just 23.

Pius Suter - am I mistaken or was he not one of the final cuts one year in camp, and looked surprisingly good?

Definitely might be worth another look if so.
 

Burrowsaurus

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How many combined games you think Brown, Norris and Chaplik play in the NHL next year?

If Brown isn't in the NHL next year, he's teetering on bust imo
I think brown is here full time next year, Chlapik will be traded I think. Norris doesn't start the year here but he gets here game 30ish and never goes back down, we move Tierney to make room
 

ChurchOfAlfie

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Pius Suter - am I mistaken or was he not one of the final cuts one year in camp, and looked surprisingly good?

Definitely might be worth another look if so.

Yup, that's him. He was invited to rookie camp + tournament at the start of the 2017-18 season.
 

MatchesMalone

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I agree that he should go back and dominated.

For all the flaws the Sens has shown last few years, they seems to want to let the next wave of prospects devellop properly.

If not, L. Brown would be in the NHL, Batherson would have never go back to the AHL. But that's just my opinion

The best development move for Pinto would be for him to play AHL. I've never been able to understand why fans never endorse top prospects staying in CHL for their overage season (correctly so) but so often want NCAA top prospects to stay in college at 20, even though the quality and style of NCAA is closer to and better prepare players for pro.

Everyone keeps saying let him go back and dominate, but I don't see that as an important enough factor, relative to other considerations. He is ready to turn pro. As I said earlier, if we thought he was going to be a top line offensive player in the NHL, it would make sense to let him learn that role in college. But I don't believe that is the case. His upside is a top nine, ~20 goal power forward / grinder. So it makes the most sense to get him learning that role at the pro level.

With every prospect at each level there is a balance and a tipping point, where you need to compare the benefits of staying at their current level (ice time, opportunity, confidence) vs. moving on (maximum growth comes with adversity).

Pinto already ranks 25th in NCAA FOW%. He plays a pro style game and scores pro style goals. He's physically mature enough and his hockey sense is mature enough. There is little benefit to him staying another year in college, compared to the many benefits of turning pro.

There's also the more technical aspects that fans don't always consider: only eight years of RFA left. If he stays at college another year that's ELC and then just four years before UFA. Maybe not a major consideration for many teams, but this is the Ottawa Senators. Also the difference between him signing this summer vs. another year from now is 80 fewer NHL games of waiver exemption. Not an important consideration if we're sure he'll make the transition to NHL smoothly, but just in case he's up and down for a couple years, that 80 game limit before waiver eligibility can be problematic.
 

aragorn

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A lot of questionable content here:

1. Pinto be a higher valued prospect than Formenton and Norris. Highly debatable given Norris is former first and Formenton was a very high profile guy on Team Canada, London and made a NHL team as a 18 year old.

2. Moving up for Pinto. That never happened.

The physical part of the AHL isn't really a concern for most guys. The pace and lack of time to make decisions is what guys have to adapt to. Whether Pinto is physically mature or not isn't really a big factor into him making the jump and its not really a big factor for most 1st and 2nd round picks.

The biggest factor is opportunity and Pinto is 100% guaranteed the opportunity he needs in North Dakota as opposed to Belleville. Plus, we don't clog up the ranks for other prospects to get ice time like Kelly, Kastelic or Davidsson for example.
I think you misunderstood me, I said I thought that Pinto was a higher valued prospect than Veronneau & Davidsson the two guys you mentioned not Formenton & Norris. You're right on #2 I confused him with someone else.

You're welcome to your opinion regarding Pinto, but I don't agree with you completely. This is not to say that I think he should come out of school next yr or whether he is being rushed or not, we simply don't yet know if he is ready or not. Rather, I think it's a possibility & I think he can physically handle it including the speed of decision making you brought up in the AHL given how well he played in the best junior tournament on the planet, the WJC. Of course, it's a small sample size but he is doing quite well in UND too. And he will be 20 yrs old this fall.

It could turn out that he may not be ready & I think over the course of this summer that decision will be made & of course it could also depend on who comes back & who doesn't & who is slated for Belleville next season & who may not. But just to be clear he looks at the least AHL ready to me, whether he actually is or not is yet to be determined. It's an interesting debate though & I would love to see him on RW with Norris & Formenton at some future point.
 
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18Hossa

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Oct 12, 2012
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Pius Suter - am I mistaken or was he not one of the final cuts one year in camp, and looked surprisingly good?

Definitely might be worth another look if so.

Not a final cut, he just had to go back to Switzerland. His contract there (last I checked expired at the end of this season, likely re-signed though) allowed him to come to NHL training camps as long as he joined his swiss team afterwards. I'm pretty sure he was at the Islanders camp last year.

Edit: Looks like he signed a four year extension last year, but he has an out clause that starts this summer.
 

JD1

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Sep 12, 2005
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The best development move for Pinto would be for him to play AHL. I've never been able to understand why fans never endorse top prospects staying in CHL for their overage season (correctly so) but so often want NCAA top prospects to stay in college at 20, even though the quality and style of NCAA is closer to and better prepare players for pro.

Everyone keeps saying let him go back and dominate, but I don't see that as an important enough factor, relative to other considerations. He is ready to turn pro. As I said earlier, if we thought he was going to be a top line offensive player in the NHL, it would make sense to let him learn that role in college. But I don't believe that is the case. His upside is a top nine, ~20 goal power forward / grinder. So it makes the most sense to get him learning that role at the pro level.

With every prospect at each level there is a balance and a tipping point, where you need to compare the benefits of staying at their current level (ice time, opportunity, confidence) vs. moving on (maximum growth comes with adversity).

Pinto already ranks 25th in NCAA FOW%. He plays a pro style game and scores pro style goals. He's physically mature enough and his hockey sense is mature enough. There is little benefit to him staying another year in college, compared to the many benefits of turning pro.

There's also the more technical aspects that fans don't always consider: only eight years of RFA left. If he stays at college another year that's ELC and then just four years before UFA. Maybe not a major consideration for many teams, but this is the Ottawa Senators. Also the difference between him signing this summer vs. another year from now is 80 fewer NHL games of waiver exemption. Not an important consideration if we're sure he'll make the transition to NHL smoothly, but just in case he's up and down for a couple years, that 80 game limit before waiver eligibility can be problematic.

Did you accidentally reverse your thought in that 1st paragraph?
 
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