Prospect Info: 2019-2020 Prospect Info and Discussion

[bleedgreen]

Wonder which side said no?

We could use the depth.

 

[HisIceness]

Watch Martin sign with the Rangers.

 

[A Star is Burns]

Maybe he'll prove to be good and it's all the wasteland that is Michigan's fault, but I can't muster the slightest give a shit about Martin not signing.

 

[Canes]

I was hoping Martin would take a Dumoulin like development curve but he never developed much at all in his time at college. Not surprised he won't be signing as he has been passed by about at least half a dozen d-men on the depth chart since being drafted.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Maybe he'll prove to be good and it's all the wasteland that is Michigan's fault, but I can't muster the slightest give a shit about Martin not signing.

That's where I'm at. He was touted as a defensive defenseman with limited offensive upside at the draft (IIRC, Pronman and a few other pundits hated the pick) and his offense never developed and IIRC, he was even getting less playing time as a junior. People referred to him as another Pesce at the time of the draft, but he didn't make strides like Pesce did. I could see him not signing being a mutual thing. Canes likely didn't have that much (or may didn't have any) interest in signing him and since they weren't showing much interest, there was no reason for him to make it happen either.

Maybe he'll prove to be more as you said, but at this point, I don't know that he would provide any more depth than you can get from career AHLrs that Charlotte can sign.

 

[DaveG]

Wonder which side said no?

We could use the depth.

Usually if it's floated this far in advance it's the players camp saying it.

Wouldn't be surprised if he signs with the Blues. He's a St Louis kid, Pietrangelo is likely hitting UFA, and their rhs depth beyond the NHL is terrible.

As long as he signs in the West oh well, best of luck. If he signs with one of the usual suspects in the East (Pittsburgh, Boston, Rangers) then get f***ed.

 

[vorbis]

Usually if it's floated this far in advance it's the players camp saying it.

Wouldn't be surprised if he signs with the Blues. He's a St Louis kid, Pietrangelo is likely hitting UFA, and their rhs depth beyond the NHL is terrible.

As long as he signs in the West oh well, best of luck. If he signs with one of the usual suspects in the East (Pittsburgh, Boston, Rangers) then get f***ed.

St. Louis kid who grew up a Hawks fan. so if he signs locally he'll have some splainin' to do

 

[DaveG]

St. Louis kid who grew up a Hawks fan. so if he signs locally he'll have some splainin' to do

lol there goes that speculation then. Yeah I won't like it if he signs with the hawks but I also won't care much either.

 

[emptyNedder]

I will be the outlier. I think Martin is still a better than average prospect and I would have him in the top 4 for D prospect (behind Bean, Sellgren, and Keane). In three of his 4 seasons he was in the top 2 on Michigan for +/-. Everyone knows it isn't a great stat—however, look at which Ds are consistently best in that for the Canes.

He was the best D-man at the prospect camp 2 seasons ago. He was close to flawless covering forwards in drills.
I can see him becoming Stephen Johns-like.

 

[DaveG]

I will be the outlier. I think Martin is still a better than average prospect and I would have him in the top 4 for D prospect (behind Bean, Sellgren, and Keane). In three of his 4 seasons he was in the top 2 on Michigan for +/-. Everyone knows it isn't a great stat—however, look at which Ds are consistently best in that for the Canes.

He was the best D-man at the prospect camp 2 seasons ago. He was close to flawless covering forwards in drills.
I can see him becoming Stephen Johns-like.

I don't necessarily disagree (though I'd also have Honka ahead of him) but it may just be a case of him seeing the situation here with Pesce and Hamilton long term on that side, Slavin, Skjei, Gardner, and Fleury on the left. And a pipeline that already has Bean, Sellgren, and Keane basically ready to make the jump and just noped out.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I don't think it's that big of a deal that Martin doesn't want to sign here. Maybe they can deal his rights to St. Louis for some AHL upgrade somewhere or very late pick. New FO had nothing to do with the pick, and their organizational philosophy calls for heavy amounts of offense from their defense, which Martin obviously doesn't do. Bean, Sellgren, Fensore, Keane, and Honka OTOH do.

 

[GoldiFox]

Honka and Fensore both had better years than Martin. Hard to be #5-6 down the prospect D depth chart when the Canes already have Slavin, Pesce, Skjei, Gardiner, and hopefully Hamilton locked in long-term.

 

[Canes]

Meh, granted I watched maybe 2-3 Michigan games while he was there, including the outdoor game last year, and I didn't see anything that makes him a better prospect than say, Austin Levi was other than being picked higher. He's not much of a loss and I wouldn't be surprised to see him start or be sent down to the ECHL at some point.

 

[bleedgreen]

Honka and Fensore both had better years than Martin. Hard to be #5-6 down the prospect D depth chart when the Canes already have Slavin, Pesce, Skjei, Gardiner, and hopefully Hamilton locked in long-term.

I think there’d be a strong opinion he plays defensively better than both of those guys. There’s no question those two would impact the game offensively better than he would, and presumably play a much better transition game but there’s something to be said for a guy who can skate and play pretty sound d.

If he would sign with us it was worth it imo. If he didn’t want to sign than there’s nothing to be done.

 

[WreckingCrew]

I think there’d be a strong opinion he plays defensively better than both of those guys. There’s no question those two would impact the game offensively better than he would, and presumably play a much better transition game but there’s something to be said for a guy who can skate and play pretty sound d.

If he would sign with us it was worth it imo. If he didn’t want to sign than there’s nothing to be done.

EDIT: nvm misread you

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

I don't think it's that big of a deal that Martin doesn't want to sign here.

I’m as much in the camp that the Canes didn’t want to sign him.

 

[hblueridgegal]

Rögle confirms - six players leave the club

The season is over and now the work of building the next team has begun. On Friday, Rögle announced that six players will leave: Ted Brithén, Dominik Bokk, Daniel Bertov, Kodie Curran, Hampus Gustavsson and Roman Will.

 

[Lempo]

Rögle confirms - six players leave the club

"This is how the warm-up camps will look like"

Rogle:

Ut: Roman Will, mv, klubb ej klar, Kodie Curran, b, do, Daniel Bertov, b, Rögle, Ted Brithén, f, Bern, Dominik Bokk, f, Carolina, Hampus Gustavsson, f, klubb ej klar.

Ut means out, ej klar means not clear (not known). So Bokk to Carolina (or Charlotte) for next season looks like a thing.

Lista: Så har SHL-klubbarna värvat

Den tyske forwarden Bokk hittade formen efter JVM och kommer nu att återvända till Carolina Hurricanes i väntan på besked om var han kommer spela nästa säsong.

Bokk going to *return* to Carolina Hurricanes waiting a message on where he will play the next season.

Succéspelarna lämnar Rögle: "Ett bra betyg för vår situation"

Makes sense, he has slided his ELC for two seasons and now it starts burning anyway. Capfriendly lists him to Charlotte for the next season.

 

[Vagrant]

never understood what so many saw in luke martin. i think they were hoping he would grow into a set of hands but it never happened for him. in this day and age, players that play 50% of the ice aren't going to make it. it's still somewhat confounding how long it lasted.

 

[emptyNedder]

never understood what so many saw in luke martin. i think they were hoping he would grow into a set of hands but it never happened for him. in this day and age, players that play 50% of the ice aren't going to make it. it's still somewhat confounding how long it lasted.

I think folks are missing out that the point is to win not simply score.
Martin was known as a shut-down D, so he was playing against the other teams' top lines. He had one of the top 2 +/- in three of his four seasons. So at even strength the team was winning with him on the ice. He was also killing penalties. The 50% of the ice he was playing is really important if the other team is scoring more often in it than your offensively-gifted players are helping you score in the other end.

Martin might not have NHL talent.
However his offensive numbers weren't disimilar to Justin Holl's in college. Toronto discovered that Holl was needed among all their scoring D-men.

 

[bleedgreen]

He wasn’t going to cost much and he’s depth. We’ve made a lot of moves and Charlotte could use a guy on the slow development plan that isn’t going anywhere for awhile. Maybe he turns out.

Im not upset, just given the choice of having him or not I would’ve chosen to have him and let it play out. Maybe he didn’t want us? Doesn’t matter, it’s over.

 

[Vagrant]

I think folks are missing out that the point is to win not simply score.
Martin was known as a shut-down D, so he was playing against the other teams' top lines. He had one of the top 2 +/- in three of his four seasons. So at even strength the team was winning with him on the ice. He was also killing penalties. The 50% of the ice he was playing is really important if the other team is scoring more often in it than your offensively-gifted players are helping you score in the other end.

Martin might not have NHL talent.
However his offensive numbers weren't disimilar to Justin Holl's in college. Toronto discovered that Holl was needed among all their scoring D-men.

i think more accurately the point of the game is to minimize the opposition's time with the puck and thereby limit their offensive chances, which can be accomplished a variety of ways. the most appealing of those ways being maintaining offensive zone possession. once possession is gained, everyone on the ice becomes an attacker. if you're deficient in that capacity (not just "not great offensively", but truly deficient) your team will most certainly suffer for your lack of balance the same way that your team's performance would suffer if the polar opposite was true that you were exceptional with the puck and brutal away from it. no end of that spectrum is good to try to establish as a niche if your aim is to play professionally, though admittedly teams are still somewhat behind the curve when it comes to isolating high scoring forwards that may cost as much as they create, but jeff skinner is proving to be a strong illustration of the dangers associated with investing too heavily into a player that is halfway there and what their game becomes when the results stop.

shut down defenseman should be a pejorative. you're either a good defenseman or you're a bad defenseman, and it can be either end of the rink that sinks you. but for my money, give me the guy that whips it around and i'll do my best to raise his terrible defense into acceptable range. doing the same in reverse is decidedly more rare to the extent that the analogy for them is a player who was in the american league at 26. but as far as that goes for him, he's the rare exception of a player that couldn't make tangible contributions in the offensive end, but developed more comfort with the puck through extensive time in the minors. yet that investment only rewarded them with a 5th defender and that's almost the best case scenario. the trade off of toughness for offense was once an exchange that made more sense in the league's interpretation of the rulebook at the time. when you could legally, and heroically, target the head it made a lot more sense that your skill deficient, concrete encased stay-at-home defender could impact the game by basically scaring the good players on the other team shitless with their recklessness. the way things are called now, there's not a place for that anymore. the shift happened so suddenly that there's a lot of folks that can't attend the funeral of intangibles and still insist that the model that was created has to be honored. your 4th line needs to be full of good spirited muckers and your bottom pairing needs to be a grizzly bear on skates. it's just senseless tradition and that thinking will be out of the league for good soon enough. you can tell by the moves they're making that this team is reading the writing on the wall on that when you look at the drafting and the heavy emphasis on technical skills.

nobody has to like it, and you're free to disagree, but i think they're 100% right in their prediction of the direction of the game. tenacity is being penalized at every step of the way for the generation developing right now. jamieson rees was damn near ejected from the league and fired into the sun for hits that would have gotten him on tsn a decade ago. there's liability in brain trauma and the not so subtle directive from the movers and shakers in hockey is that it has to go. if the nfl wasn't so obscenely profitable, there would be more being done from them to insulate themselves from future liability but the game is so violent by nature that slamming on the brakes is impossible. they're paying it away on a case by case basis to keep the biscuit wheels on the gravy train, but that's not going to cut it much longer. a lot of digression in there, but you're reading one of my posts so you have the time.

 

[vorbis]

i think more accurately the point of the game is to minimize the opposition's time with the puck and thereby limit their offensive chances, which can be accomplished a variety of ways. the most appealing of those ways being maintaining offensive zone possession. once possession is gained, everyone on the ice becomes an attacker. if you're deficient in that capacity (not just "not great offensively", but truly deficient) your team will most certainly suffer for your lack of balance the same way that your team's performance would suffer if the polar opposite was true that you were exceptional with the puck and brutal away from it. no end of that spectrum is good to try to establish as a niche if your aim is to play professionally, though admittedly teams are still somewhat behind the curve when it comes to isolating high scoring forwards that may cost as much as they create, but jeff skinner is proving to be a strong illustration of the dangers associated with investing too heavily into a player that is halfway there and what their game becomes when the results stop.

shut down defenseman should be a pejorative. you're either a good defenseman or you're a bad defenseman, and it can be either end of the rink that sinks you. but for my money, give me the guy that whips it around and i'll do my best to raise his terrible defense into acceptable range. doing the same in reverse is decidedly more rare to the extent that the analogy for them is a player who was in the american league at 26. but as far as that goes for him, he's the rare exception of a player that couldn't make tangible contributions in the offensive end, but developed more comfort with the puck through extensive time in the minors. yet that investment only rewarded them with a 5th defender and that's almost the best case scenario. the trade off of toughness for offense was once an exchange that made more sense in the league's interpretation of the rulebook at the time. when you could legally, and heroically, target the head it made a lot more sense that your skill deficient, concrete encased stay-at-home defender could impact the game by basically scaring the good players on the other team shitless with their recklessness. the way things are called now, there's not a place for that anymore. the shift happened so suddenly that there's a lot of folks that can't attend the funeral of intangibles and still insist that the model that was created has to be honored. your 4th line needs to be full of good spirited muckers and your bottom pairing needs to be a grizzly bear on skates. it's just senseless tradition and that thinking will be out of the league for good soon enough. you can tell by the moves they're making that this team is reading the writing on the wall on that when you look at the drafting and the heavy emphasis on technical skills.

nobody has to like it, and you're free to disagree, but i think they're 100% right in their prediction of the direction of the game. tenacity is being penalized at every step of the way for the generation developing right now. jamieson rees was damn near ejected from the league and fired into the sun for hits that would have gotten him on tsn a decade ago. there's liability in brain trauma and the not so subtle directive from the movers and shakers in hockey is that it has to go. if the nfl wasn't so obscenely profitable, there would be more being done from them to insulate themselves from future liability but the game is so violent by nature that slamming on the brakes is impossible. they're paying it away on a case by case basis to keep the biscuit wheels on the gravy train, but that's not going to cut it much longer. a lot of digression in there, but you're reading one of my posts so you have the time.

really appreciate this. spring is typically sluggish in arriving here in the great white north, so now I get to warm my hands by this simmering bonfire of luke martin's career. hmm, I count two (2) line breaks in this post vagrant, you're slipping. still, the 'funeral of intangibles' bit was a slick turn of phrase imo.

 

[emptyNedder]

ou can tell by the moves they're making that this team is reading the writing on the wall on that when you look at the drafting and the heavy emphasis on technical skills.

nobody has to like it, and you're free to disagree, but i think they're 100% right in their prediction of the direction of the game.

I have been a proponent of change in hockey more than most. Baseball and football have seen much more forward-thinking, whether it is the infield shift or empty-backfield formations. And basketball, the sport most like hockey due to fluid action and 5 main players, is decades ahead with its de-emphasis on traditional roles. Basketball has figured out that roles like pure point guard or low-post center make no sense with talents like Giannis/Lebron/Kawhi/Luca. In the next decade a few teams will figure out that having defined RW/C/LW lines is hidebound tradition. Likewise the need for a checking line.
As eloquent as your post was, it elided (and so too have the Canes) what is going to be the biggest advance in "new" hockey—something the Canes of 2-4 years ago seemed to understand—limiting penalties. Like a Fibonacci sequence, a season long comparison of lowered PIM will expose much more than is initially apparent. For instance, taking 25% fewer penalties than the opposition erases the entire difference between being average and league best on both special teams.
As for drafting strategy—the idea that the Canes have suddenly found some new insights is hardly defensible. This is an organization that drafted Slavin in the 4th 8 years ago, Pesce in the 3rd 7 years ago, Wallmark in the 4th 6 years ago, and Nic Roy in the 4th 5 years ago. If Puistola, Honka, or Fensore surpass those players (obviously selected for technical skill) then an argument for a seismic shift makes sense.
The Canes haven't shown any special ability in predicting the direction of hockey. They have yet to create the equivalent of the Houston Rockets' small lineup. In fact, they seem more committed to veterans than teams like NYR and Columbus. That commitment is hardly revolutionary.
I am as much a fan as anyone, but I can admit that the recent success was based on strong drafting (Aho/Necas/Pesce/Slavin), a deft acquisition (Teravainen), and luck (finishing second in the 2018 lottery) that all took place prior to or without any input from current management. Very little of the Canes recent improvement has come from seeing the future through a different prism.

 

[Canes]

If Luke Martin's ceiling is Justin Holl or a similar level d-man, I still have no problem with him not signing/us not signing him. Those dudes are literally replacement level players that still wouldn't have made a lick of difference even on teams with horrendous defenses like ours in JR's final years.