Prospect Info: 2019-2020 Prospect Info and Discussion

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Reflecting on the trade deadline, I know that Charlotte did get hammered by the moves that the Borg made. On the other hand, I think that what's fabulous about our FO is that they don't fall so in love with prospects that they're not willing to trade them in order to get better right now. I think that it's very healthy for our team to draft a bunch of times, draft them well, (most importantly) develop them well in Charlotte, and then choose your best to keep and then trade the rest to struggling clubs at the deadline in order to meaningfully improve the big club. I would not be surprised if they do a similar thing next year with our next wave of young guys like Cotton, Sellgren, Bokk, Filipe, Martin, Henman, and Mattheos.

 

[poobags]

Reflecting on the trade deadline, I know that Charlotte did get hammered by the moves that the Borg made. On the other hand, I think that what's fabulous about our FO is that they don't fall so in love with prospects that they're not willing to trade them in order to get better right now. I think that it's very healthy for our team to draft a bunch of times, draft them well, (most importantly) develop them well in Chicago, and then choose your best to keep and then trade the rest to struggling clubs at the deadline in order to meaningfully improve the big club. I would not be surprised if they do a similar thing next year with our next wave of young guys like Cotton, Sellgren, Bokk, Filipe, Martin, Henman, and Mattheos.

FTFY

 

[DaveG]

FTFY

Impossible, no prospects develop well on the Wolves

 

[emptyNedder]

trade the rest to struggling clubs at the deadline in order to meaningfully improve the big club

Some fans fall in love with prospects. Some with the front office.

There is at least as much support for teams developing talent (Tampa, Boston) as there is for making trades—especially when the team is trying to go from playoff contender to Cup contender. Arizona's example with Kessel and Hall should make everyone question whether "improving" talent levels is more myth than reality.

I think the jury is out and will be for at least another year on most of the trades. In fact, the players that made the most positive difference were already in the organization (Necas and Williams). Haula helped early, then was more of a non-factor as Roy was becoming a 1st-liner. An objective view would question whether the FAs really would have been better than allowing Geekie and Bean develop more in the NHL.

This is an interesting topic—I can see both sides.

 

[Lempo]

As expected, Puistola signs with Jyp. The contract is until 2022, but obviously covered by the Liiga umbrella NHL clause, meaning that his ELC will supersede the Liiga one when and if one gets signed.

 

[bleedgreen]

Every team when they rebuild hesitates to trade prospects and picks until they have enough to do so. Every team once they reach the point of having enough quality that people are interested, and they can trade some off while keeping the best for themselves and without hurting the depth by moving them for valuable pieces that help now do so. I don’t think we’ve invented a new concept or are doing something that wouldn’t have happened anyways.

Our FO is doing exactly what any other FO in our shoes would be doing at this point, and exactly what our own previous FO would be doing at this point. It’s good we recognized that we are there and have made moves. Time will tell if they were the right moves obviously. I generally like this seasons moves in terms of what we got, was a little itchy in terms of what we paid but see the need for the risk. The Vatanen one if he doesn’t sign will bug me personally a bit, but I really like Vatanen.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Some fans fall in love with prospects. Some with the front office.

There is at least as much support for teams developing talent (Tampa, Boston) as there is for making trades—especially when the team is trying to go from playoff contender to Cup contender. Arizona's example with Kessel and Hall should make everyone question whether "improving" talent levels is more myth than reality.

I think the jury is out and will be for at least another year on most of the trades. In fact, the players that made the most positive difference were already in the organization (Necas and Williams). Haula helped early, then was more of a non-factor as Roy was becoming a 1st-liner. An objective view would question whether the FAs really would have been better than allowing Geekie and Bean develop more in the NHL.

This is an interesting topic—I can see both sides.

Roy isn’t close to a 1st liner yet. He had been up and down constantly between the bottom lines and the AHL until Eakin was dealt. I still think that Haula, who on balance did help the team, was good value for Roy, especially since he was parlayed into Trocheck instead of being lost for nothing.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Every team when they rebuild hesitates to trade prospects and picks until they have enough to do so. Every team once they reach the point of having enough quality that people are interested, and they can trade some off while keeping the best for themselves and without hurting the depth by moving them for valuable pieces that help now do so. I don’t think we’ve invented a new concept or are doing something that wouldn’t have happened anyways

Our FO is doing exactly what any other FO in our shoes would be doing at this point, and exactly what our own previous FO would be doing at this point. It’s good we recognized that we are there and have made moves. Time will tell if they were the right moves obviously. I generally like this seasons moves in terms of what we got, was a little itchy in terms of what we paid but see the need for the risk. The Vatanen one if he doesn’t sign will bug me personally a bit, but I really like Vatanen.

The one thing that they have certainly done differently than other teams is (other than Vatanen) specifically going after guys with term, and acquiring salaries outright to decrease the overall asset value that they need to give back. Dealing prospects on their own isn’t exactly re-inventing the wheel, but how they’re doing it is quite interesting.

 

[bleedgreen]

Roy isn’t close to a 1st liner yet. He had been up and down constantly between the bottom lines and the AHL until Eakin was dealt. I still think that Haula, who on balance did help the team, was good value for Roy, especially since he was parlayed into Trocheck instead of being lost for nothing.

I like the Trocheck trade too, but Roy was hardly the only thing we tossed into that equation. We can argue all day about the future of Wally/Luo/Priskie, I think we can all agree that Trocheck is the best player there if he can get anywhere close to what he was before. I dont dislike the trade at all as I have always liked Trocheck but yup...there was some sticker shock there. Nothing wrong with that. I do very much think we got the best thing in those moves.

 

[bleedgreen]

The one thing that they have certainly done differently than other teams is (other than Vatanen) specifically going after guys with term, and acquiring salaries outright to decrease the overall asset value that they need to give back.

I think every team in the league would like to add guys with term the same exact way we have. Ive been reading Friedmans thoughts for three years with constant references to teams in the position to do so wanting to add guys with term. The only reason we're ahead on that curve from most teams is because we were just at the league floor and had millions and millions of space to add guys with term that every other team in the league would've loved to add. That's us taking advantage of the biggest asset every team would like to have - cap space. We didnt come up with a new concept there. We've certainly done that differently because no one else in the league had that much space, with a ton of prospects, and all sorts of stuff to give back that we wouldnt miss more than what we're getting.

Im not talking us down. We did exactly what we should do once we had a wallet and I genuinely do like a lot of the moves. I'm just saying we tend to give ourselves credit for brilliant ideas that were the most obvious things to do. The credit comes when the guys we chose to fill that space prove to be the right ones. Right now we get a nod for the effort, and just bask in the glory of being a normal team that has an owner like all the other ones in that he doesnt mind spending money somewhere near the cap. Thats definitely something to celebrate.

 

[emptyNedder]

Roy isn’t close to a 1st liner yet.

Vegas was fighting for playoff positioning.

Roy was with Pacioretty and William Karlsson. On the Vegas board several mentioned they expected Roy to center Pacioretty and Stone once the latter was healthy.

Folks on this board get defensive about others who question our hockey understanding. Unless the posters on the Vegas board are ignorant, then Roy was basically playing on the first line.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I like the Trocheck trade too, but Roy was hardly the only thing we tossed into that equation. We can argue all day about the future of Wally/Luo/Priskie, I think we can all agree that Trocheck is the best player there if he can get anywhere close to what he was before. I dont dislike the trade at all as I have always liked Trocheck but yup...there was some sticker shock there. Nothing wrong with that. I do very much think we got the best thing in those moves.

Relative to the draft capital that they invested in Roy, Wallmark, Priskie, and Luostarinen, the Trocheck deal was incredible value. Roy originally was a 3rd rounder, Wallmark a 4th rounder, Priskie a College UFA, and Luostarinen a 2nd rounder. If you told everybody that we dealt a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and a College UFA for 3 years of Trocheck, it would be seen as highway robbery. All of these players, of course, performed well above their original draft slots, especially Wallmark, so I’m obviously not talking about equivalent value. What I am saying, however, is that great drafting, scouting, and development allows you to not only promote from within, but also to promote guys via trade.

 

[bleedgreen]

If Roy holds onto that kind of role over the next two years then the comparison to Trocheck begins. I liked him as a prospect and was glad he was freed from prison here. If he becomes something we regret then I hope our FO does look inward a bit.

Unless it's purely Rod saying he wouldnt play this or that guy, and they move them because of that. An interesting topic moving forward. Roy's skating was an issue, but so is Geekie's. There's a numbers game at play there, Roy plays a headier game and we have guys on the top two lines he wasn't going to replace soon. Geekie may be best suited at a bottom six role.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

Vegas was fighting for playoff positioning.

Roy was with Pacioretty and William Karlsson. On the Vegas board several mentioned they expected Roy to center Pacioretty and Stone once the latter was healthy.

Folks on this board get defensive about others who question our hockey understanding. Unless the posters on the Vegas board are ignorant, then Roy was basically playing on the first line.

I think that Vegas’ goal is to have Cody Glass as the guy that centers Patches and Stone long-term. They’ve had Glass down a line or two so that he could become more of a two-way guy to match with Stone’s style of play. Roy has performed really well with Vegas, no doubt about that; all that I’m saying is that he’s mostly played as a passenger on those lines, much like Chandler Stephenson did in the middle of the season. I’m not a guy that tends to be sentimental about prospects unless they’ve way over-performed expectations (like Adam Fox, yes, but that was a situation beyond the office’s control).

 

[bleedgreen]

Relative to the draft capital that they invested in Roy, Wallmark, Priskie, and Luostarinen, the Trocheck deal was incredible value. Roy originally was a 3rd rounder, Wallmark a 4th rounder, Priskie a College UFA, and Luostarinen a 2nd rounder. If you told everybody that we dealt a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and a College UFA for 3 years of Trocheck, it would be seen as highway robbery. All of these players, of course, performed well above their original draft slots, especially Wallmark, so I’m obviously not talking about equivalent value. What I am saying, however, is that great drafting, scouting, and development allows you to not only promote from within, but also to promote guys via trade.

Trocheck playing at his current level would not be worth all of that in many people's eyes. The fact that those guys all outplayed their draft status doesnt help. The only thing that helps is that out of all that stuff Trocheck currently looks like the best player - thus its worth it. Five assets, many who are still developing and developing well for a guy who's production has dropped off the charts since a major injury would be seen by many as highway robbery indeed - in the other direction.

If you told Panthers fans two months ago they could have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and a sought after college ufa for a guy they were desperately trying to give away there'd be a mad rush to Vinnie's house to drive him to the airport.

Again...we got the best guy - but we paid for it. Calgary was desperate to move Dougie. We took advantage there.

 

[emptyNedder]

I’m not a guy that tends to be sentimental about prospects unless they’ve way over-performed expectations

That is how I feel about the front-office. So far they have not over-performed—they inherited Aho, Tervainen, Slavin, Pesce, and Necas and lucked into Svechnikov (thanks Scott Darling).

Not saying there haven't been good moves. At this point all the confidence is like saying Fleury is top 4 D because he played 20+ minutes four of the last 5 games. Simply acquiring players with term is not a panacea (NJ, Nashville, and again Arizona).

Put another way: Bob for 8 years or Merzlikins? Duchene or Cirelli? Dzingel or Olofsson? The answers are not clear—sometimes giving a prospect an extended chance is good management.

 

[bleedgreen]

That is how I feel about the front-office. So far they have not over-performed—they inherited Aho, Tervainen, Slavin, Pesce, and Necas and lucked into Svechnikov (thanks Scott Darling).

Not saying there haven't been good moves. At this point all the confidence is like saying Fleury is top 4 D because he played 20+ minutes four of the last 5 games. Simply acquiring players with term is not a panacea (NJ, Nashville, and again Arizona).

Put another way: Bob for 8 years or Merzlikins? Duchene or Cirelli? Dzingel or Olofsson? The answers are not clear—sometimes giving a prospect an extended chance is good management.

Boom.

Though I do think Fleury played well enough to be considered to be a potential top 4, falling in line with your post. Gardiner or Fleury? I know that Skjei is now the number four presumably, but you get the gist.

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

That is how I feel about the front-office. So far they have not over-performed—they inherited Aho, Tervainen, Slavin, Pesce, and Necas and lucked into Svechnikov (thanks Scott Darling).

I beg to disagree. I think that our FO has over-performed in many ways relative to the average team, just not to the extent that we sometimes give them credit for. A huge part of that overperformance relative to the mean has to do with Dougie being a monster, Paul Fenton being Paul Fenton, and Buffalo being stupid and overpaying the shit out of Skinner in UFA, but all of that still counts in their favor. We'll see what happens with all of their other moves, but I like their overall vision so far.

 

[bleedgreen]

I beg to disagree. I think that our FO has over-performed in many ways relative to the average team, just not to the extent that we sometimes give them credit for. A huge part of that overperformance relative to the mean has to do with Dougie being a monster, Paul Fenton being Paul Fenton, and Buffalo being stupid and overpaying the shit out of Skinner in UFA, but all of that still counts in their favor. We'll see what happens with all of their other moves, but I like their overall vision so far.

I can get with this. My struggle has been giving us credit that we don't always really deserve. We were a blank slate. Almost anyone couldve come to this team with its cap space and prospect/pick list and made a ton of moves that wouldve improved a mediocre team. Dougie was a good risk, and they were smart to do it, but like everything else we're talking about here the price was a cringe and a half. Still a good move as Dougie is great but the whole trade was a shit show, but we got the best player. Maybe. Check back next year. Good job not blinking when Fenton was Fenton. We weren't going to pay Skinner any kind of raise, especially for 8 years. So good job doing what most teams in our spot wouldve done, I doubt he had any intention of signing with us anyways to be honest. Their vision was they wanted a different team because they felt the market wanted/needed it and they made change. I dont think THEY thought we were to be good last year. I think they're now in a bit of a conflict between analytics and Rod - who I dont think is big on any of that. Dzingle, Haula, and Gardiner all smacked of Tulsky style smart buys but they dont fit Rod's system at all. Which retrospectively seems obvious. We needed more skill but we need skill that would fit on last years team of gritty hard work and relentless forechecking that rarely goes East/West or turns over the puck trying to make pretty plays happen. We only forgive Aho and TT for that. Wonder how that will figure into future moves?

 

[TheReelChuckFletcher]

I can get with this. My struggle has been giving us credit that we don't always really deserve. We were a blank slate. Almost anyone couldve come to this team with its cap space and prospect/pick list and made a ton of moves that wouldve improved a mediocre team. Dougie was a good risk, and they were smart to do it, but like everything else we're talking about here the price was a cringe and a half. Still a good move as Dougie is great but the whole trade was a shit show, but we got the best player. Maybe. Check back next year. Good job not blinking when Fenton was Fenton. We weren't going to pay Skinner any kind of raise, especially for 8 years. So good job doing what most teams in our spot wouldve done, I doubt he had any intention of signing with us anyways to be honest. Their vision was they wanted a different team because they felt the market wanted/needed it and they made change. I dont think THEY thought we were to be good last year. I think they're now in a bit of a conflict between analytics and Rod - who I dont think is big on any of that. Dzingle, Haula, and Gardiner all smacked of Tulsky style smart buys but they dont fit Rod's system at all. Which retrospectively seems obvious. We needed more skill but we need skill that would fit on last years team of gritty hard work and relentless forechecking that rarely goes East/West or turns over the puck trying to make pretty plays happen. We only forgive Aho and TT for that. Wonder how that will figure into future moves?

I'm not sure, but again, Gardiner has adjusted a lot in the last weeks before COVID-19, and it took Brindy a while to let Dougie loose and give him a bunch of minutes. Maybe a similar thing will be in play with Dzingel as the wins pile up and he scores some points again. Again, I don't think that our FO are geniuses, BUT I think they're really good at their jobs and are not afraid to experiment and give the roster time to mesh.

 

[spockBokk]

I think the addition of an another 2way C in Trocheck could work wonders for a guy like Dzingel if RBA would ever unstaple #18 from the 4th line.

 

[spockBokk]

Dupes

 

[DaveG]

So of the players left that have expiring draft rights that are left to sign, the only guy I think is an obvious non-sign is Stevens.

Henman, Zimmer, Filipe, and Martin are the other 4 around that need to be signed, and I think we'll make a push for Drury. We're at only 30 contracts for next year after re-signing Fleury and Foegele anyway and while Zimmer hasn't shown a ton in college his ELC will only be a 2 year deal so might as well sign him. Same goes for Martin though that one I'm more willing to give the benefit of the doubt on the player to since Michigan has been a dumpster fire the past few years and he wasn't put in a position to succeed. Part of it is also in how impressive he's looked outside of Michigan so there's that as well.

 

[hblueridgegal]

 

[hblueridgegal]

From sportbibeln.se (Per Google Translate): "The star's stern message to the big club - excludes return to SHL: "Will not be back"

And Sellgren is also stubborn that he will not return to SHL - whether it be games in the NHL or not.
- It doesn't matter if I'm sent to the farmer's team. I'm going to give it a try, and will stay there anyway, he says.

Some commenting that we are the "Corona Hurricanes"