2019-2020 Around the League Thread

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MarkT

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Babcock is going to get the brunt of the blame. But Ceci should not be a 1st pairing defenseman but he kind of has to because they don't have many other options. And the forwards... what were they even doing on that Malkin goal except staring as he went through the slot for a perfect opportunity.

That Toronto roster is way too flawed defensively for me to believe that a coaching change will make them a contender like what happened with the Blues recently and the Kings many years ago with Sutter taking over for Murray.

It's going to get very interesting if Babcock gets fired, because he's only part of the problem. That is a seriously flawed roster. They seem to be built to win games 6-5 every night, but if they bring in a coach who plays them that way, it's going to lead to a lot of blown leads and/or early goals against, which is going to make Leafs fans very frustrated. Without Babcock there, that frustration is going to start going towards Dubas and even more towards the players.

It's looking very likely Leafs fans are going to run Babcock, Ceci, and Barrie out of town.
 

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It's going to get very interesting if Babcock gets fired, because he's only part of the problem. That is a seriously flawed roster. They seem to be built to win games 6-5 every night, but if they bring in a coach who plays them that way, it's going to lead to a lot of blown leads and/or early goals against, which is going to make Leafs fans very frustrated. Without Babcock there, that frustration is going to start going towards Dubas and even more towards the players.

It's looking very likely Leafs fans are going to run Babcock, Ceci, and Barrie out of town.

Remember, Muzzin could bolt too.

Something very weird is happening. The Leafs for some weird reason have become a perimeter offense team. Barrie and all the other defensemen are launching shots from the point like crazy, but there's now almost nothing coming from the slot area. That used to be Tavares's Office. He's taken a very strange regression and I'm not sure why. The Leafs as a whole used to own the middle and now they're settling for outside stuff.

One thing that may or may not be contributing to the problem. The Leafs had a bit of a shakeup on their coaching staff, DJ Smith left to take over the Senators, Dave Hakstol came in. I think it was a pretty good pickup (and I don't doubt for a second they did it with the possibility of Hak taking over as interim head coach in the event that Babs got the axe and they didn't want Keefe to take over until the following season) so I don't think that alone is to blame, but they appear to have changed their tactics a bit and it looks like the team as a whole is struggling to adjust.
 

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Again, I think Dubas is a very good GM. But there have been bad missteps, mostly by Lou but he hasn't been perfect either. Signing both Zaitsev and Marleau to big $$$ were grave errors that proved to be costly to undo. And ultimately, Andersen is not a long-term solution in net. Their attempts to address the backup issue this offseason were nothing short of disastrous, and now they're scrambling. Even the frickin' Avs, who were criticized for having only four goalies signed to NHL deals going into this season appear better prepared than Toronto.

Also, I'll say it again, they didn't have their two best defensive players (Hyman and Dermott) to start the season, and neither is anywhere near 100%. Unfortunately Bab's solution to that is to overplay Ceci and try to make Barrie into something that he's not. On top of that, the holes in Rielly's game are being exposed as well.
 

The Kingslayer

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Babcock is going to get the brunt of the blame. But Ceci should not be a 1st pairing defenseman but he kind of has to because they don't have many other options. And the forwards... what were they even doing on that Malkin goal except staring as he went through the slot for a perfect opportunity.

That Toronto roster is way too flawed defensively for me to believe that a coaching change will make them a contender like what happened with the Blues recently and the Kings many years ago with Sutter taking over for Murray.
Leaf fans thought they got a steal when they got Ceci. Some of ya'll wanted Ceci in the Duchene trade if I recall. Ceci is trash.
 

Raucherhusten

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Again, I think Dubas is a very good GM. But there have been bad missteps, mostly by Lou but he hasn't been perfect either. Signing both Zaitsev and Marleau to big $$$ were grave errors that proved to be costly to undo. And ultimately, Andersen is not a long-term solution in net. Their attempts to address the backup issue this offseason were nothing short of disastrous, and now they're scrambling. Even the frickin' Avs, who were criticized for having only four goalies signed to NHL deals going into this season appear better prepared than Toronto.

Also, I'll say it again, they didn't have their two best defensive players (Hyman and Dermott) to start the season, and neither is anywhere near 100%. Unfortunately Bab's solution to that is to overplay Ceci and try to make Barrie into something that he's not. On top of that, the holes in Rielly's game are being exposed as well.

What in the blue hell makes you think that???

He might become one, heck Sakic was pretty meh in his first two years, BUT for now he's just baaaad.
 

avsfan09

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Dach with a beauty tonight and his first multi goal game. I can’t wait to watch him when he takes off in about 2 years.
 

MarkT

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Remember, Muzzin could bolt too.

Something very weird is happening. The Leafs for some weird reason have become a perimeter offense team. Barrie and all the other defensemen are launching shots from the point like crazy, but there's now almost nothing coming from the slot area. That used to be Tavares's Office. He's taken a very strange regression and I'm not sure why. The Leafs as a whole used to own the middle and now they're settling for outside stuff.

One thing that may or may not be contributing to the problem. The Leafs had a bit of a shakeup on their coaching staff, DJ Smith left to take over the Senators, Dave Hakstol came in. I think it was a pretty good pickup (and I don't doubt for a second they did it with the possibility of Hak taking over as interim head coach in the event that Babs got the axe and they didn't want Keefe to take over until the following season) so I don't think that alone is to blame, but they appear to have changed their tactics a bit and it looks like the team as a whole is struggling to adjust.

Yeah I've been following the Leafs situation closely. They really seem to be trying to do... something with the team, but they're facing an issue of both not having the personnel to do it and not having the buy-in from the players. They have a team built for pure offense that relies heavily on guys known for offense rather than defense, and a coach that wants them to play low event, safe defensive hockey.

Also, from what I know of Babcock, I'm not sure how much influence his assistants really have. I think he really treats them as his assistants, as in Assistant to the Coach, rather than the guy in charge of the forwards/defenseman like Bednar does with his assistants.

I think the first step is firing Babcock, but if they just replace him with Hakstol I'm not sure how effective it would be given how things went in Philly. I'd wager if Dubas is the one making the decision, if they haven't improved by the end of the month (which they finish with back-to-back games against Buffalo), Babcock gets fired and Keefe gets the job. The reason I say Keefe rather than Hakstol is a) Keefe is Dubas's boy, b) what if Hakstol is temporarily successful - do the Leafs think he's really the best coach to lead them to a cup? But if he's successful they can't really fire him at year's end. Also, c) having a former head coach like Hakstol as an assistant is actually a good thing if you're going to have a rookie head coach.
 
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Gatorbait19

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Again, I think Dubas is a very good GM. But there have been bad missteps, mostly by Lou but he hasn't been perfect either. Signing both Zaitsev and Marleau to big $$$ were grave errors that proved to be costly to undo. And ultimately, Andersen is not a long-term solution in net. Their attempts to address the backup issue this offseason were nothing short of disastrous, and now they're scrambling. Even the frickin' Avs, who were criticized for having only four goalies signed to NHL deals going into this season appear better prepared than Toronto.

Also, I'll say it again, they didn't have their two best defensive players (Hyman and Dermott) to start the season, and neither is anywhere near 100%. Unfortunately Bab's solution to that is to overplay Ceci and try to make Barrie into something that he's not. On top of that, the holes in Rielly's game are being exposed as well.
Listen Dubas can’t be blamed for everything, but the truly big things, all happened on his watch:

1. Allowing Nylander to hold out

2. Signing Nylander to a very expensive long term deal after allowing him to hold out

3. Signing Matthews to a deal that gave AM everything he wanted (term and $$), totally resetting the market....for one team and one team only. He gave AM, an RFA, the 2nd highest per year deal in the league. The deal also allows AM to walk right into FA, which I think he’ll do.

4. Signing Marner, an RFA, to the 2nd highest contract for a winger in the league. This gave the leafs 3 of the top 7 highest paid guys in the league.

5. Trading away one of the teams best cost controlled assets in Kadri, for an impending UFA that not only wants more than he’s worth, but whom doesn’t fit with the leafs at all and made them worse.

6. Then the cherry on top is signing Kerfoot to a 4 year deal for no apparent reason.

He’s still young sure, but those are moves that crippled Toronto’s window and chances at a cup.
 

Balthazar

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Dach with a beauty tonight and his first multi goal game. I can’t wait to watch him when he takes off in about 2 years.
Watch him outperform all the kids from the USHL in his draft class...
 

Balthazar

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Again, I think Dubas is a very good GM. But there have been bad missteps, mostly by Lou but he hasn't been perfect either. Signing both Zaitsev and Marleau to big $$$ were grave errors that proved to be costly to undo. And ultimately, Andersen is not a long-term solution in net. Their attempts to address the backup issue this offseason were nothing short of disastrous, and now they're scrambling. Even the frickin' Avs, who were criticized for having only four goalies signed to NHL deals going into this season appear better prepared than Toronto.

Also, I'll say it again, they didn't have their two best defensive players (Hyman and Dermott) to start the season, and neither is anywhere near 100%. Unfortunately Bab's solution to that is to overplay Ceci and try to make Barrie into something that he's not. On top of that, the holes in Rielly's game are being exposed as well.

He got away from Zaitsev and Marleau by getting Ceci and trading next year's 1st rounder, these 2 things have no effect whatsoever on the current roster. Ceci isn't the problem.

Dubas f***ed up with his poor contract negotiation skills and overlooked a very important aspect of building a team. He's been a very bad GM so far.
 

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Listen Dubas can’t be blamed for everything, but the truly big things, all happened on his watch:

1. Allowing Nylander to hold out

2. Signing Nylander to a very expensive long term deal after allowing him to hold out

3. Signing Matthews to a deal that gave AM everything he wanted (term and $$), totally resetting the market....for one team and one team only. He gave AM, an RFA, the 2nd highest per year deal in the league. The deal also allows AM to walk right into FA, which I think he’ll do.

4. Signing Marner, an RFA, to the 2nd highest contract for a winger in the league. This gave the leafs 3 of the top 7 highest paid guys in the league.

5. Trading away one of the teams best cost controlled assets in Kadri, for an impending UFA that not only wants more than he’s worth, but whom doesn’t fit with the leafs at all and made them worse.

6. Then the cherry on top is signing Kerfoot to a 4 year deal for no apparent reason.

He’s still young sure, but those are moves that crippled Toronto’s window and chances at a cup.


1. Not much a GM can do about a player refusing to sign. He wasn't arbitration eligible yet, and there is no other way to force a player into a contract.

2. Overall, the Nylander contract is not that expensive. $7M cap hit for a 60+ point C/W is not bad. Last year was crazy high due to the way the holdout is handled, but it makes the rest of the years lower.

3. Not much argument here, though I would add that AM34 got this much in large part because JT got $11M ....which was also on Dubas. Don't sign JT, AM does not have that comparable, so he takes less. (Nylander may have been influenced by the JT contract as well).

4. This contract also follows from the AM34-JT deals, don't do the first, the others are more reasonable.

5. Kadri did not fit in TOR any more. They moved him for a good deal, getting back a top producing D and a fair 3C. Problem is Babcock refuses to play guys to their strengths, and having Reilly means he can get away with not playing TBoobs right.

6. Locking up a proven 40+ point 3C on a fair deal for 4 years is not a bad thing.


Dubas has not been perfect, but not every move has been bad. Snowball effect on contracts from signing JT (to appease Shanny and the fans?) is the biggest issue.
 

Tweaky

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He got away from Zaitsev and Marleau by getting Ceci and trading next year's 1st rounder, these 2 things have no effect whatsoever on the current roster. Ceci isn't the problem.

Dubas ****ed up with his poor contract negotiation skills and overlooked a very important aspect of building a team. He's been a very bad GM so far.
Babcock riding Ceci into the ground is very much an issue.

He could definitely do better on contracts, but not all of them have been bad.
 
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Balthazar

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Babcock riding Ceci into the ground is very much an issue.

He doesn't have a choice, look at his RHD depth. Ceci, Barrie or Holl. Barrie has been much worse than Ceci this year and the other is an AHLer.
 

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He got away from Zaitsev and Marleau by getting Ceci and trading next year's 1st rounder, these 2 things have no effect whatsoever on the current roster. Ceci isn't the problem.

Dubas ****ed up with his poor contract negotiation skills and overlooked a very important aspect of building a team. He's been a very bad GM so far.

Giving up a first rounder just to get rid of a bad contract most assuredly does have an effect on the current roster. It took away an important trading chip that he could have used to help augment the roster.

It's true that he was not able to get his top players to take any sort of discount whatsoever, so in that regard he's no David Poile. But unfortunately that's also just bad timing. We're seeing a league-wide market correction when it comes to RFA contracts. Obviously if he had to do over again, Dubas would've just let Nylander sit or traded him.

Again, he's made some mistakes, but he's also had to clean up some messes. I'm going to wait until next season to start really evaluating him. If he manages to keep at least one of his big departing free agents and ice a good team next season, I'll be impressed. A couple of their prospects should be ready by then. But right now the biggest issues IMO are Babcock and the goaltending.
 

Gatorbait19

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1. Not much a GM can do about a player refusing to sign. He wasn't arbitration eligible yet, and there is no other way to force a player into a contract.

2. Overall, the Nylander contract is not that expensive. $7M cap hit for a 60+ point C/W is not bad. Last year was crazy high due to the way the holdout is handled, but it makes the rest of the years lower.

3. Not much argument here, though I would add that AM34 got this much in large part because JT got $11M ....which was also on Dubas. Don't sign JT, AM does not have that comparable, so he takes less. (Nylander may have been influenced by the JT contract as well).

4. This contract also follows from the AM34-JT deals, don't do the first, the others are more reasonable.

5. Kadri did not fit in TOR any more. They moved him for a good deal, getting back a top producing D and a fair 3C. Problem is Babcock refuses to play guys to their strengths, and having Reilly means he can get away with not playing TBoobs right.

6. Locking up a proven 40+ point 3C on a fair deal for 4 years is not a bad thing.


Dubas has not been perfect, but not every move has been bad. Snowball effect on contracts from signing JT (to appease Shanny and the fans?) is the biggest issue.
1-2. There was something Dubas could’ve done with Nylander - trade him. Sure it stings, but he just signed Tavares and knew he had AM and Marner on the imminent horizon. If Nylander wasn’t agreeing to their offers and fitting in their team cap structure, you’ve got no choice but to trade him. Instead, he signed Nylander to a big money long term deal. Yes it’s probably a fair deal, but the fairness is irrelevant if it’s going to force you to sacrifice a better player in the future or hamstring your team the way it has.

3. I can understand/agree with the fact that the Tavares deal influenced the AM deal. But that doesn’t mean that you can give the farm to AM and the deal he got is not comparable to the deal Tavares got. There’s a huge difference between paying and an RFA v UFA, AND Matthews not only got more than JT, but also only 5 years.

4. At some point you gotta cut it off. Doesn’t matter if marner was influenced by the previous deals, this is the straw that broke the camel’s back. They had to trade Marner this off-season, or Nylander at the very least. Just because you made mistakes in the past, doesn’t mean that you should quadruple down on them and make another one.

5. I don’t agree that Kadri didn’t fit in TOR anymore. Yes he was under utilized (unsertandably so), but they were a better team with him. I do give Babcock some blame with Tyson, but fact of the matter is, even if he used him correctly, that would no solve their issues and improve their woeful defense. Barrie only contributes to that.

6. When couched in those terms, kerfoot’s deal doesn’t seem bad. But this fan base knows Kerfoot better than anyone and there are few if any of us that would’ve given Kerfoot that deal.
 
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Pokecheque

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Y'know, if there was one misstep the Leafs may have taken during all this...it may end up being John Tavares. Hopefully his current malaise is not a portent of things to come, but it's the disappearance of his offense that's hurting the Leafs, WAY more than the very poor start from Barrie.

I just can't help but wonder if they weren't better off staying with a Matthews/Kadri tandem and building around that.
 

Balthazar

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Speaking of Tavares, can we all agree that he didn't become the leader they expected him to become? His stats are alright (roughly ppg) but doesn't come accross as the elite C capable of carrying a team. Him and Matthews together are unable to do what Mack is currently doing alone.
 

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1-2. There was something Dubas could’ve done with Nylander - trade him.

That's where it all started. He didn't expect his stars to play hardball with him but they did and once he caved in with Willy he was done. They knew he was vulnerable with the Tavares signing, he couldn't not sign them since they were all-in. After all the media circus around Nylander, he quickly signed Matthews to whatever he asked to avoid more drama, then painted himself in the corner for Marner (who wasn't going to be the only one of the 3 not getting what he wanted).

In insight, his only way out was to trade Nylander. Can't let him sit because they are all-in but they sure could have traded him. If Nylander is traded, Matthews doesn't sign that contract and neither is Marner. They could also have fixed the defense (rumor was Nylander for Pesce+) and have some cap space to play with.
 

MarkT

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That's where it all started. He didn't expect his stars to play hardball with him but they did and once he caved in with Willy he was done. They knew he was vulnerable with the Tavares signing, he couldn't not sign them since they were all-in. After all the media circus around Nylander, he quickly signed Matthews to whatever he asked to avoid more drama, then painted himself in the corner for Marner (who wasn't going to be the only one of the 3 not getting what he wanted).

In insight, his only way out was to trade Nylander. Can't let him sit because they are all-in but they sure could have traded him. If Nylander is traded, Matthews doesn't sign that contract and neither is Marner. They could also have fixed the defense (rumor was Nylander for Pesce+) and have some cap space to play with.

Right on.
It was pretty clear to me that once why signed Tavares the Leafs would have to trade one of Matthews, Nylander or Marner. Kadri was the obvious one to keep due to his wicked contract. I thought at the time, if they keep all of them, how will they afford any defensemen? Well, look where they are now. Had they moved Nylander (or Marner or even Matthews), they'd likely have a much more balanced team and we wouldn't need to be talking about firing Babcock mid season. Just move Kadri, Matthews or Tavares to wing, and watch the team roll.
 

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Speaking of Tavares, can we all agree that he didn't become the leader they expected him to become? His stats are alright (roughly ppg) but doesn't come accross as the elite C capable of carrying a team. Him and Matthews together are unable to do what Mack is currently doing alone.

He and Marner made for a pretty dominant tandem last season. This year, something is way, way off. I can't help but wonder if he's even more banged up than he's been letting on.

BTW, one of the ways the Leafs may have shot themselves in the foot with the Tavares signing is that those younger players weren't about to take a "hometown discount" when the new guy was making $11 million per season. Imagine if the Avs had indeed held onto Ryan O'Reilly and paid him what he requested (which, as it turns out, would've been completely fair market value). Would the Avs have been able to sign MacKinnon to what has turned out to be a dirt-cheap contract? I don't think so.

This isn't me saying the Avs were 100% right to trade O'Reilly, just saying that IMO things would've unfolded quite differently had they held onto ROR.
 
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