2019/20 Roster Thread XXXIV

[Appleyard]

Decidedly not a role. It's a skill. Conflating the two illustrates the problem succinctly. Unless rosters expand, hockey does not lend itself to narrow specialists the way baseball can.

I think Hagg is actually "fine/good" at several areas of hockey. Boards, netfront... and actually once set-up in OZ is okay, good at getting his shot through, and "fine" getting into the OZ as well.

BUT his two biggest flaws take all that away, as they are arguably THE two most important areas in todays NHL for defensemen:

Blue-line defence: He is way too passive and amongst the worst in the NHL at allowing zone entries as a result.

Zone exits: He hardly ever makes a clean pass to spring forwards, ices the puck a lot, or gives possession away.

I would even maybe of the ~8 or so most important aspects of the game for NHL defencemen he is "passable" at worst at 5-6/8 of the attributes for a #5-6 defenseman.

BUT probably the two most important aspects in todays league he is in the bottom 5% of NHL Dmen at.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I think Hagg is actually "fine/good" at several areas of hockey. Boards, netfront... and actually once set-up in OZ is okay, good at getting his shot through, and "fine" getting into the OZ as well.

BUT his two biggest flaws take all that away, as they are arguably THE two most important areas in todays NHL for defensemen:

Blue-line defence: He is way too passive and amongst the worst in the NHL at allowing zone entries as a result.

Zone exits: He hardly ever makes a clean pass to spring forwards, ices the puck a lot, or gives possession away.

I would even maybe of the ~8 or so most important aspects of the game for NHL defencemen he is "passable" at worst at 5-6/8 of the attributes for a #5-6 defenseman.

BUT probably the two most important aspects in todays league he is in the bottom 5% of NHL Dmen at.

I was trying to avoid Hagg’s specifics as it tends to lead to arguments, but you can probably get away with it more than I can. He definitely has more than one positive. Everyone does.

Especially in a Defenseman, we really have to draw bolder lines between skills and roles than was traditionally done. Hockey substitution patterns don’t allow for the kind of specificity required to blend the two.

 

[Deadpool8812]

So you guys don't like it when Hagg blindly fires the puck around the boards to try and clear the zone?

 

[Starat327]

So you guys don't like it when Hagg blindly fires the puck around the boards to try and clear the zone?

I dont like when ANYONE blindly fires the puck around the boards. This isn't a Hagg thing. It's a 'bad hockey play' thing. Hagg just tends to make a lot more of them than his peers.

 

[dragonoffrost]

We really need real hockey to stop the insanity. Oh wait it will continue because there is always a weakest link.

 

[Starat327]

We really need real hockey to stop the insanity. Oh wait it will continue because there is always a weakest link.

I mean, nobody's saying we're going to ice an all-star team. But if you arent working to minimize the effects your weakest link has, you're doing it wrong. And if you cant improve your weakest link, you damn sure better make it your cheapest one that doesnt play much.

 

[Appleyard]

I mean, nobody's saying we're going to ice an all-star team. But if you arent working to minimize the effects your weakest link has, you're doing it wrong. And if you cant improve your weakest link, you damn sure better make it your cheapest one that doesnt play much.

Yeh, plus I mean, for the 2010 team no-one was really moaning about Asham, Carcillo, Betts, Powe and Lapperriere. As all damn good for their role in the team. Yeh, ofc at times they f***ed up. But everyone knew they were above NHL average at worst for where slotted in. Shame about the D and goalie situation though...

 

[Rebels57]

Yeh, plus I mean, for the 2010 team no-one was really moaning about Asham, Carcillo, Betts, Powe and Lapperriere. As all damn good for their role in the team. Yeh, ofc at times they f***ed up. But everyone knew they were above NHL average at worst for where slotted in. Shame about the D and goalie situation though...

A quality #5 defensemen would have made a world of difference, but we were not looking like contenders at the deadline and were still trying to claw our way into the playoffs.

Interesting lesson about taking risks at the deadline even when you might not "look" like true contenders. We cheaped out and went for Krajicek but I wonder who we could have added by parting with a better asset..

 

[FLYguy3911]

Plus you can get real value for Hagg (say a 2/3 to replenish what was given up for Braun) rather than re-signing him when you have Zamula, Kalynuk, and York on the verge of the NHL.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

What defensemen on a $1.15M or less non-entry level contract were better than Hagg this year?

 

[rinaldo]

Giroux, Voracek, Couturier, Konecny, Hayes, JVR, Laughton, Raffl, NAK, Farabee

There’s 10 forwards you can bet on being in the lineup next season.

Then we have Frost who 100% needs a spot, Patrick will too if he’s able to play, Laczynski should have one as well, and maybe Allison too. Then there’s guys like Bunnaman, Kase, and Rubtsov who could/should get chances in case of injury.

So the idea of adding outside bottom 6 players doesn’t sound too good. All it’ll do is give our staff opportunities to make mistakes and block more deserving people, like we saw this year.

with all these players that should have spots wouldn't you move a guy like raffle?

just curious who you think is more deserving of a spot based on those players you named? excluding frost as that's just unforgivable really.

 

[Curufinwe]

By the numbers: The best value contract on every NHL team

PLAYER	GSVA/82	XWIN	DIFFERENCE	CAP HIT (M)	YEARS LEFT
Sean Couturier	3.18	1.04	2.14	$4.33	2
Oskar Lindblom	1.67	-0.02	1.7	$0.93	0
Philippe Myers	1.28	-0.26	1.54	$0.68	0
Nicolas Aube-Kubel	1.13	-0.09	1.23	$0.70	0
Travis Konecny	2.59	1.41	1.19	$5.50	5

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Beef Invictus]

Yeh, plus I mean, for the 2010 team no-one was really moaning about Asham, Carcillo, Betts, Powe and Lapperriere. As all damn good for their role in the team. Yeh, ofc at times they f***ed up. But everyone knew they were above NHL average at worst for where slotted in. Shame about the D and goalie situation though...

On the other hand, Riley Cote was rightly lambasted because I'm not sure he was fit to play professional hockey at any level.

The trick is not being among the worst in the league.

 

[Beef Invictus]

What defensemen on a $1.15M or less non-entry level contract were better than Hagg this year?

Why are these stipulations necessary? If you have someone as deficient as Hagg and have any option in-house who is at minimum at the same level, and who is also cheaper, you play that guy.

 

[Starat327]

Why are these stipulations necessary? If you have someone as deficient as Hagg and have any option in-house who is at minimum at the same level, and who is also cheaper, you play that guy.

Oh come on, you know the answer to this questions. The use of stats is restricted to pro-arguments only. Any stats not in direct agreement with the point are invalid, false, biased, without context, or in some other way tainted.

 

[deadhead]

Plus those guys are not Stewart, VandeVelde, Weise, Lehtera, Thompson etc... they will be on $700-750k and are actually pretty solid players.

They're not Stewart, but they are Vandervelde, Weise, Lehtera.

Lehtera wasn't awful his first season here, his salary was, at $750k as the 13th forward there would have been no squawking.
VdV was a marginal forward at 5x5 but a plus PK guy, again at 13th forward he'd been fine.
Weise is as good or better than the guys you listed his first couple years here, again, at $750K as the 13th forward he'd been fine.

The problem comes when you're so thin these guys are your 11th and 12th forwards playing 82 games.
Or when you're paying them $2+M a year.

It's the same with Hagg, if you're paying him $1M a year to be your #6/#7 defenseman, playing 15 minutes for 30-40 games a year, no problem.
Pay him $2M a year to play 17-18 minutes a night for 80 games, problem.

Nor do these guys block prospects, no one blocked Farabee last year.
Your prospects ready to play in the top 9 or top 4 aren't blocked by marginal veterans.
Your prospects who are not ready to beat out scrub veterans won't be hurt by more AHL time.

 

[deadhead]

As even if the cap just stays the same Flyers will be at ~$2.5m space with a 21 man roster once Patrick, Friedman, Myers, NAK and a back-up goalie signed. And that is including Morin and only 12 forwards.

And dont really want Hagg back, Braun is very likely to demand $2m+...

You don't dump Hagg until you have his replacement lined up, whether an affordable deal with Braun, or another veteran.
You don't want to have to start Friedman at #6 and a waiver wire guy at #7 next year.
You want someone who can play #6 if Friedman falls on his face.

 

[Appleyard]

They're not Stewart, but they are Vandervelde, Weise, Lehtera.

Lehtera wasn't awful his first season here, his salary was, at $750k as the 13th forward there would have been no squawking.
VdV was a marginal forward at 5x5 but a plus PK guy, again at 13th forward he'd been fine.
Weise is as good or better than the guys you listed his first couple years here, again, at $750K as the 13th forward he'd been fine.

The problem comes when you're so thin these guys are your 11th and 12th forwards playing 82 games.
Or when you're paying them $2+M a year.

It's the same with Hagg, if you're paying him $1M a year to be your #6/#7 defenseman, playing 15 minutes for 30-40 games a year, no problem.
Pay him $2M a year to play 17-18 minutes a night for 80 games, problem.

Nor do these guys block prospects, no one blocked Farabee last year.
Your prospects ready to play in the top 9 or top 4 aren't blocked by marginal veterans.
Your prospects who are not ready to beat out scrub veterans won't be hurt by more AHL time.

They are all better than Vandevelde, Weise and Lehtera were with the Flyers.

They score more and get scored on less and actually win their matchups.

But yeh... Lehtera especially would have been fine at 750k as a 13th fwd, Weise in first year yeh. But Vandevelde should have never played 50 NHL games... was pretty much the worst fwd in NHL.

 

[Appleyard]

You don't dump Hagg until you have his replacement lined up, whether an affordable deal with Braun, or another veteran.
You don't want to have to start Friedman at #6 and a waiver wire guy at #7 next year.
You want someone who can play #6 if Friedman falls on his face.

There will be several UFAs for half the money who will be better than him though... Ryan, Davidson, Goloubef just some of them.

Hagg and his agent will almost certainly ask for a raise... given age and years in NHL etc. I guess he costs 1.5m+.

 

[rinaldo]

You don't dump Hagg until you have his replacement lined up, whether an affordable deal with Braun, or another veteran.
You don't want to have to start Friedman at #6 and a waiver wire guy at #7 next year.
You want someone who can play #6 if Friedman falls on his face.

Disagree. You can find 6/7 dman at anytime in the summer. Plus they need to see what they have in Freidman unless that decision is already made.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Disagree. You can find 6/7 dman at anytime in the summer. Plus they need to see what they have in Freidman unless that decision is already made.

On the bolded, this mindset works in the pre-cap NHL, but unless you are getting something for quite cheap I think that's a role that should be getting filled cheaply from within; I think if you've gotta go shopping for that guy on D then something is going wrong with drafting and development. And if that's Friedman, so be it. If AV chooses to be competent he can play up the roster if he earns it.

 

[deadhead]

Disagree. You can find 6/7 dman at anytime in the summer. Plus they need to see what they have in Freidman unless that decision is already made.

Not at reasonable cost you can't (though this summer may be weird).
Go look at what #6 veteran defensemen cost in free agency the last few years. On multi-year deals.

The other problem is size, we have a small defense outside of Myers and Hagg, and York, Zamula and Kalynuk won't help in that regard. If we replace Braun with Friedman, we get smaller.
If size doesn't matter, why does Cooper have the biggest defense in the. NHL in Tampa?

Don't need Grossman and Schenn, but you want some balance.
Unfortunately, doesn't look like Morin is going to pan out.

 

[rinaldo]

On the bolded, this mindset works in the pre-cap NHL, but unless you are getting something for quite cheap I think that's a role that should be getting filled cheaply from within; I think if you've gotta go shopping for that guy on D then something is going wrong with drafting and development. And if that's Friedman, so be it. If AV chooses to be competent he can play up the roster if he earns it.

it can be filled either/or; yes you can get it cheap as guys linger. Doesn't mean something is wrong as maybe the players just are not ready yet is one scenario.

Friedman will get his chance unless they just don't believe he can cut it. Either way if they cut loose hagg they will find a dman rather easily imo. Ideally guys on entry level deals or 1 year 1.5 or so less is what you want on your bottom pair money wise imo. Same with 4th line not guys making millions.

 

[rinaldo]

Not at reasonable cost you can't (though this summer may be weird).
Go look at what #6 veteran defensemen cost in free agency the last few years. On multi-year deals.

The other problem is size, we have a small defense outside of Myers and Hagg, and York, Zamula and Kalynuk won't help in that regard. If we replace Braun with Friedman, we get smaller.
If size doesn't matter, why does Cooper have the biggest defense in the. NHL in Tampa?

Don't need Grossman and Schenn, but you want some balance.
Unfortunately, doesn't look like Morin is going to pan out.

yes you can at a reasonable cost.

 

[Appleyard]

On the bolded, this mindset works in the pre-cap NHL, but unless you are getting something for quite cheap I think that's a role that should be getting filled cheaply from within; I think if you've gotta go shopping for that guy on D then something is going wrong with drafting and development. And if that's Friedman, so be it. If AV chooses to be competent he can play up the roster if he earns it.

I get where both are coming from.

I would be happy going into the year with:

Provorov-Niskanen
Sanheim-Myers
Gostisbehere-Friedman.

But not so sure now on Morin as the #7... maybe fine if #8. Hence why would be fine with them signing a cheap #7 who can play good NHL hockey in bottom pairing role and has proven that. Not many actually around... but Ryan, Davidson and Goloubef fit the bill. All will be 800k or less, would be able to sit around as a #7, and can be sent to the AHL if needed and be a positive there. Basically like Colaiacovo did. (ignoring that Carlo was actually better than half the D they played in front of him and on merit would have been like the #5 all year haha)

In an ideal world then if say Friedman plays first 30 games and is poor and Zamula does not look great in AHL then Ryan can slot in at #6 and pretty much know what will get. Or if say Ghost gets injured on a roadtrip he can play out the roadtrip and then Zamula if playing well comes up and Ryan slides back to #7.

Just a shame they felt the need to sign ALL of Welinksi, Prosser, Wotherspoon and Bigras. As 0/4 are capable of playing in the NHL.

Welinski and Bigras were putrid in their NHL stints.
Prosser was bad, one of worst NHL Dmen when there.
Wotherspoon might be best of the bunch but he is a #8-9 at best... who should only play in really dire circumstances.

I would just hate a 2010 situation where no Braun, say Ghost goes down, Friedman is just ~#7 level, Zamula struggles to adapt to AHL right off the bat and end up with freaking Morin and Wotherspoon as the #5 and #6... a Joakim Ryan type guy mitigates a lot of risk without really any issues in terms of blocking anyone.