2019/20 Roster Thread XXV [Dec. 4: Vorobyev recalled]

[Hollywood Cannon]

Good point. Let's see what happens on Saturday. I predict another wonky 1st period followed by dominating in the 2nd and 3rd and a nice and tidy 4-1 win (EN goal scored by Hart )

I'm here for it, lol.

 

[Magua]

If the PP doesn't pick up, I think Therrien will get the chop before anyone here kills themselves.

The same Therrien who is personal friends with Vigneault? Who made a blood oath that whichever one got hired first would make the other his assistant?

Short of a Ronan Farrow exposé or a stupid team hiring him as head coach, my guess is we are stuck with this guy for several years, results be damned. Assistant coaches can be like cockroaches.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Your go-to move is misusing stats and acting like because you've used them wrong, they're bunk.

What I thought was obvious was that I was illustrating that some people cite “advanced stats” like xGF% as definitive “proof” when it supports what they want to believe, but conveniently ignore it when it doesn’t (Braun, Ghost, Weal, Weise).

If it’s as definitive as some people seem to use those stats, there’s no picking & choosing.

If xGF% means one player is bad or good, or the team average, then it also means Braun has been excellent & Ghost has been horrible. Yet those same people tend to hate on Braun & defend/love Ghost.

It’s the hypocrisy & inconsistency I’m highlighting.


I have always, very consistently, said these advanced stats are flawed & should not be treated as definitive player rating systems. Similarly, I have always said they aren’t valueless, but need to be considered with a grain of salt & context.

It’s laughable that you accuse me of using these stats without context. A) You completely missed the point of my post that you were criticizing; and B) Not long ago I clearly spelled out that you were the one eliminating context by excusing a host of terrible metrics for Ghost, & ignoring that it occurred during extremely sheltered usage, by only wanting to focus on who he played with the most (& ignoring that he still spent a substantial amount of time with “good” players).

 

[Beef Invictus]

What I thought was obvious was that I was illustrating that some people cite “advanced stats” like xGF% as definitive “proof” when it supports what they want to believe, but conveniently ignore it when it doesn’t (Braun, Ghost, Weal, Weise).

If it’s as definitive as some people seem to use those stats, there’s no picking & choosing.

If xGF% means one player is bad or good, or the team average, then it also means Braun has been excellent & Ghost has been horrible. Yet those same people tend to hate on Braun & defend/love Ghost.

It’s the hypocrisy & inconsistency I’m highlighting.


I have always, very consistently, said these advanced stats are flawed & should not be treated as definitive player rating systems. Similarly, I have always said they aren’t valueless, but need to be considered with a grain of salt & context.

It’s laughable that you accuse me of using these stats without context. A) You completely missed the point of my post that you were criticizing; and B) Not long ago I clearly spelled out that you were the one eliminating context by excusing a host of terrible metrics for Ghost, & ignoring that it occurred during extremely sheltered usage, by only wanting to focus on who he played with the most (& ignoring that he still spent a substantial amount of time with “good” players).

And what you refuse to understand is that you are using stats wrong by just grabbing some numbers, removing all context, and acting like that proves anything. Note that we build context around those numbers when they're used to describe Ghost. Everyone here understands the stats have flaws, hence the absolute need for that context.

So like I said. You grab some stuff, use it wrong, and pretend that because you've used the tool wrong the tool is broken.

 

[Starat327]

And what you refuse to understand is that you are using stats wrong by just grabbing some numbers, removing all context, and acting like that proves anything. Note that we build context around those numbers when they're used to describe Ghost. Everyone here understands the stats have flaws, hence the absolute need for that context.

So like I said. You grab some stuff, use it wrong, and pretend that because you've used the tool wrong the tool is broken.

I dont like this post so it's pretty obvious nhl.com is reporting it wrong.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

And what you refuse to understand is that you are using stats wrong by just grabbing some numbers, removing all context, and acting like that proves anything. Note that we build context around those numbers when they're used to describe Ghost. Everyone here understands the stats have flaws, hence the absolute need for that context.

So like I said. You grab some stuff, use it wrong, and pretend that because you've used the tool wrong the tool is broken.

Much to the contrary, I have consistently argued that “advanced stats” are flawed & aren’t dispositive proof of anything. My “beef” has always been when people use them as indisputable “proof” or “facts” of a player’s worth, especially while not applying them the same way with players they dislike.

So you’re now essentially arguing my point. Guess I won you over.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Much to the contrary, I have consistently argued that “advanced stats” are flawed & aren’t dispositive proof of anything. My “beef” has always been when people use them as indisputable “proof” or “facts” of a player’s worth, especially while not applying them the same way with players they dislike.

So you’re now essentially arguing my point. Guess I won you over.

No, I'm arguing that they're useful if you use them correctly.

You use them incorrectly then pretend that they're the problem instead of you. We last saw this behavior with people who defended Bryzgalov...and people who insisted Carle was super good and vital...and people who insisted Carter was trash. Basically, people who had stances contrary to reality needed to pretend that things used to measure and quantify reality are wrong.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No, I'm arguing that they're useful if you use them correctly.

You use them incorrectly then pretend that they're the problem instead of you. We last saw this behavior with people who defended Bryzgalov...and people who insisted Carle was super good and vital...and people who insisted Carter was trash. Basically, people who had stances contrary to reality needed to pretend that things used to measure and quantify reality are wrong.

You’re the one who cited such stats & labeled them “proof” & “facts,” not me. I’m the one who has LONG said they are worth considering, but flawed & should not be treated as definitive player rating systems.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You’re the one who cited such stats & labeled them “proof” & “facts,” not me. I’m the one who has LONG said they are worth considering, but flawed & should not be treated as definitive player rating systems.

I cite the stats and then tie it into the context.


Whatever, you just wanna meet in Valley Forge and wrestle this one out? To the death, as the ghosts demand.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I cite the stats and then tie it into the context.


Whatever, you just wanna meet in Valley Forge and wrestle this one out? To the death, as the ghosts demand.

Sure. I’ll drive you to the hospital after.

 

[bobbythebrain]

If you hit me and i find out about it....I'll be mad

 

[Curufinwe]

So... they started off with a better record?

I've been entertained this year by the team but i'm not going to be hopeful until they kick the winning/losing streak habit.

I'm not saying they're not a good team but they've followed the same trend quietly that we've seen for years but just happened to win a few more games to start the season.

Their season has consisted of...

1W
4L
3W
2L
1W
1L
4W
4L
1W
1L
5W
1L (current)

I'm not even down on the team in the slightest. I just have seen this show before over and over where they drag us back in and make us think that they've turned a corner only to throw up in our face. If they can prevent this from turning into a losing streak i'll be quite happy.

You didn't show that this season was previous to other recent seasons, or that it it's dissimilar to other good but not great teams. You just lumped in shootout losses with regulation losses and wrote them down in a list.

Honestly, it reminds me of when Jtown would list Couturier's point totals game by game, and complain about the amount of zeroes while ignoring the total.

The last three times the Flyers made the playoffs (13-14, 15-16, and 17-18), they had bad starts and then were great for the second half of the season. This is not that.

8-10-7
9-10-5
12-12-2
29-32-14 before 12/1 (.480 P%)

30-18-8
32-17-9
34-16-7
96-51-24 after 12/1 (.710 P%)

A .710 P% right now would be 4th best, while .480 would be 27th. It's a giant disparity.

NHL.com - Stats

 

[Oskar Man]

I'd love to get Josh Anderson out of Columbus. IMO his handedness, speed, size, and grit would compliment this roster really really well.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Sure. I’ll drive you to the hospital after.

Yeah, bad news. The ghosts demand payment of a soul for using their property. There's also a one soul processing fee on top of that.

 

[Starat327]

Yeah, bad news. The ghosts demand payment of a soul for using their property. There's also a one soul processing fee on top of that.

I dont know nor care what were getting but i volunteer Haggs and Stewarts.

 

[Adtar02]

And what you refuse to understand is that you are using stats wrong by just grabbing some numbers, removing all context, and acting like that proves anything. Note that we build context around those numbers when they're used to describe Ghost. Everyone here understands the stats have flaws, hence the absolute need for that context.

So like I said. You grab some stuff, use it wrong, and pretend that because you've used the tool wrong the tool is broken.

Could you imagine them using primitive tools that way???

 

[flyers0909]

Sample size be damned.

 

[Striiker]

Crazy how someone can go from “not even AHL ready” to this good, this fast.

More of that Hakstol-style coaching, I guess. The one where TK went from a 4th liner to 1st liner in a week.

 

[Phillyfan28]

Never too early to start the #coots4selke talk on Twitter. Maybe if we start earlier this year, we can will it.

 

[CapnZin]

Much to the contrary, I have consistently argued that “advanced stats” are flawed & aren’t dispositive proof of anything. My “beef” has always been when people use them as indisputable “proof” or “facts” of a player’s worth, especially while not applying them the same way with players they dislike.

So you’re now essentially arguing my point. Guess I won you over.

There’s a caveat to this ‘message on the wall’. Think of this argument like a chef cooking a burger:

You, as in the observer, are obviously the chef, the salt and pepper are advanced stats (maybe throw in a little cheese in the middle and make a Juicy Lucy), and the burger is the eye test. We don’t have to get too deep but you can think of the ground beef, or whatever, as grade A-F signifying hockey intelligence... if you don’t understand hockey, then your analysis likely reflects that- grade F.

Advanced stats don’t make the grade go from a F to an A. You can’t use those stats to hide a lack of knowledge, but here’s the comparison.

Grade A beef thrown down by a chef with good intellect doesn’t necessarily need the salt and pepper to make a good burger. The analysis is already good, however, the salt and pepper can enhance it. If you don’t know how to season the meat, THEN DONT DO IT AT ALL.

So many people on this site act likely they know the stats. They just know the definition and maybe how it relates to the game. People use the stats as the meat in this sense... that doesn’t work. xGF can’t be an argument and it can’t be the sole weight of the denominating factor of an argument. Stats don’t really work that way for hockey. I see people using linear analysis for hockey- mainly for retroactive arguments. If that doesn’t make you laugh on the inside, you’re probably one of the people who only understands the definition and not the math. Not to be degrading, but to whoever reads that and doesn’t understand it — you can’t regress an argument on the margin for time related data since the variation changes. You’d have to derive every single factor for every single second that each parameter is changed. The math behind it would equal ERROR!. An example of this would be talking about xGF, the players usage, TOI, and comparing it to someone else without equalizing the parameters - Ghost has a bad xGF compared to Samuel Girard last year so maybe we should get Girard.

The math has to back the argument, the argument shouldn’t back the math. Using stats correctly makes for a damn good burger. I’m not trying to pin myself as all knowing, but I have a background in analysis like this and it’s funny to see people make an argument when it’s literally invalid from the start.

Beef Invictus is right, if you use the stats correctly and they enhance your fundamental knowledge and analysis... you’re golden.

*It may seem like I’m referring to you, but the “you” in here is just general*

 

[Ginger Papa]

I respect the way you folks handle your disagreements & conflicts. The last few pages of this particular thread are a perfect example. Sports are going to bring out passionate opinions but you keep your comments about the topic. Name calling & implying lack of knowledge in a rude manner is avoided and a person really has to take an extreme position in order to receive a strong response from multiple Members.

I've been circulating around several Team Boards and honestly this is one of the most civil, with actual conversations. Some of the Team Boards have Threads which are more like the contentious Main Board Threads, where Members are posting their thoughts but do not appear to really be reading anyone else's:

So, again, well done on cultivating such a healthy environment for good hockey talk for Members with different opinions who cheer for the same team or at the very least for some of the players on your team. I like it here.

Cheers

 

[Starat327]

I respect the way you folks handle your disagreements & conflicts. The last few pages of this particular thread are a perfect example. Sports are going to bring out passionate opinions but you keep your comments about the topic. Name calling & implying lack of knowledge in a rude manner is avoided and a person really has to take an extreme position in order to receive a strong response from multiple Members.

I've been circulating around several Team Boards and honestly this is one of the most civil, with actual conversations. Some of the Team Boards have Threads which are more like the contentious Main Board Threads, where Members are posting their thoughts but do not appear to really be reading anyone else's:
View attachment 288723



So, again, well done on cultivating such a healthy environment for good hockey talk for Members with different opinions who cheer for the same team or at the very least for some of the players on your team. I like it here.

Cheers

This opinion sucks AINEC.

/s

 

[Rebels57]

I respect the way you folks handle your disagreements & conflicts. The last few pages of this particular thread are a perfect example. Sports are going to bring out passionate opinions but you keep your comments about the topic. Name calling & implying lack of knowledge in a rude manner is avoided and a person really has to take an extreme position in order to receive a strong response from multiple Members.

I've been circulating around several Team Boards and honestly this is one of the most civil, with actual conversations. Some of the Team Boards have Threads which are more like the contentious Main Board Threads, where Members are posting their thoughts but do not appear to really be reading anyone else's:
View attachment 288723



So, again, well done on cultivating such a healthy environment for good hockey talk for Members with different opinions who cheer for the same team or at the very least for some of the players on your team. I like it here.

Cheers

We do have a few bad apples around here, but thats what the Ignore List is for you.

 

[Chinatown88]

We do have a few bad apples around here, but thats what Igor Silent is for you.

FTFY

#HiveMind terminology

 

[Curufinwe]

TK is out with a concussion, so I assume Twarysnki will be called up.