2019-20 Prospects Thread

MS

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Just listening to Reid Boucher on 1040. He says Kole Lind is a very chippy player, who gets under the skin of opponents. Lind might just be one heck of s good player for us. Skill, size, skating, smarts, scoring, and a pain in the arse to play against.

Lind is one of the best players I've ever seen at drawing penalties by managing to get himself punched in the head in scrums. He's a bit of a yappy agitator, but isn't really physical at all whistle-to-whistle. Weakly built and weak on his skates.

As per the bolded, his skating is poor and his shot would have issues tearing a wet paper bag. He's a smart player who has improved heaps defensively, but there is no real top-6 upside there.

If Lind makes the NHL, he'll be a bottom-6 defensive winger. Think Nic Dowd (who was a talented AHL playmaker) but with a bit more jam.
 

Fatass

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Lind is one of the best players I've ever seen at drawing penalties by managing to get himself punched in the head in scrums. He's a bit of a yappy agitator, but isn't really physical at all whistle-to-whistle. Weakly built and weak on his skates.

As per the bolded, his skating is poor and his shot would have issues tearing a wet paper bag. He's a smart player who has improved heaps defensively, but there is no real top-6 upside there.

If Lind makes the NHL, he'll be a bottom-6 defensive winger. Think Nic Dowd (who was a talented AHL playmaker) but with a bit more jam.
Lind is a very good skater, who needed to physically mature. Now he’s becoming a man, we’re hearing guys who actually played with him talking about how good Lind is. Your evaluation is totally off.
 

MS

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Lind is a very good skater, who needed to physically mature. Now he’s becoming a man, we’re hearing guys who actually played with him talking about how good Lind is. Your evaluation is totally off.

Lind is not a very good skater, at all. He's slow and weak on his skates. It's been a constant problem since he was drafted. How many times have you watched him play in Utica?
 

Fatass

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Lind is not a very good skater, at all. He's slow and weak on his skates. It's been a constant problem since he was drafted. How many times have you watched him play in Utica?
Experts differ and guys who play with Lind see things different than you, and I will take their evaluations over an HF poster.

“March 2020 – It’s been a season of rejuvenation for the second year pro. Lind leaped from disappointing AHL rookie to ending the Covid-19 shortened season with 44 points in 61 games. That mark sat well within the top-10 U22 scorers in the league. Lind didn’t his penchant for the physical side of things either. His rebound season puts him back on track to be a top-9 NHL winger who should be capable of chipping in amongst a bevy of categories. Another season in Utica is assured but he may be ready to push for call-up duties in 2020-21. Cam Robinson”
Kole Lind
 

Fatass

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Lind is not a very good skater, at all. He's slow and weak on his skates. It's been a constant problem since he was drafted. How many times have you watched him play in Utica?
Here’s another view from experts contrary to yours.
(RIP Botch)
Canucks’ top prospects, No. 6: Kole Lind

You are entitled to your opinion, but it appears to be quite a bit different from experts.
 

MS

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Experts differ and guys who play with Lind see things different than you, and I will take their evaluations over an HF poster.

“March 2020 – It’s been a season of rejuvenation for the second year pro. Lind leaped from disappointing AHL rookie to ending the Covid-19 shortened season with 44 points in 61 games. That mark sat well within the top-10 U22 scorers in the league. Lind didn’t his penchant for the physical side of things either. His rebound season puts him back on track to be a top-9 NHL winger who should be capable of chipping in amongst a bevy of categories. Another season in Utica is assured but he may be ready to push for call-up duties in 2020-21. Cam Robinson”
Kole Lind

Where does that say anything about his skating?

He did improve significantly in his 2nd pro season, especially defensively and in terms of his puck management. He had a very productive start to the season driven by playing next to the red-hot Reid Boucher, then dropped off and struggled to produce as the season went on.

But he's still a poor skater who projects as a bottom-6 guy if he makes it. Slow players who can't finish don't end up as top-6 NHL wingers.
 

Hansen

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Lind is one of the best players I've ever seen at drawing penalties by managing to get himself punched in the head in scrums. He's a bit of a yappy agitator, but isn't really physical at all whistle-to-whistle. Weakly built and weak on his skates.

As per the bolded, his skating is poor and his shot would have issues tearing a wet paper bag. He's a smart player who has improved heaps defensively, but there is no real top-6 upside there.

If Lind makes the NHL, he'll be a bottom-6 defensive winger. Think Nic Dowd (who was a talented AHL playmaker) but with a bit more jam.
I'm impressed that he continues to be an agitator like that in pro but he's going to get himself rocked at some point and that will likely wash out of his game. If he makes the NHL that will be part of what keeps him there though if he can keep it up.

So many tweeners/bottom sixers who are nothing special but can earn a spot because they bring that element to their game, and even more who were great at it in junior but can't keep it up in pro.
 

MS

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Her we go again:
CanucksArmy’s 2018 “Midterm” Prospect Rankings: #6 Kole Lind
This article mentions his excellent shot, and that he’s still physically immature.
Just admit that Bracket hit a homer with another pick.

You keep listing stuff from 2018.

I don't care about what someone said about him two years ago based on his play in Kelowna. Since then, we've watched him play for two full years in the AHL, and it should be pretty obvious that neither his skating ability nor his shot/finishing skills project as a top-6 forward in the NHL.

He isn't a home run. He's been a somewhat disappointing pick who may still be able to eke out an NHL career as a defensive depth winger. Or may not.
 
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MS

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I'm impressed that he continues to be an agitator like that in pro but he's going to get himself rocked at some point and that will likely wash out of his game. If he makes the NHL that will be part of what keeps him there though if he can keep it up.

So many tweeners/bottom sixers who are nothing special but can earn a spot because they bring that element to their game, and even more who were great at it in junior but can't keep it up in pro.

Yeah, I have the same concerns that at some point he's going to get himself absolutely cold-cocked, and what that will do to his game when that inevitably happens.
 

sting101

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Lind is and always has been very much a project. Had a long ways to go athletically and still has steps to be taken.
The thing with Lind is he's an agitator, has NHL level skill a good stick and hockey sense. I would much rather his skating and strength deficiencies that can be improved (hopefully to an NHL level) than a robust burner with a 2C brain and poor NHL hands.
I see a similar to Josh Leivo player. A guy that probably takes awhile to marinate and may never be a big deal but can provide middle 6 value and some potential for upside if he gains confidence and improves.
I think it's early to put a cap on him but MS likes to remind everyone of the unlikelihood because of his trajectory. Still a fun prospect to follow.
 

Fatass

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You keep listing stuff from 2018.

I don't care about what someone said about him two years ago based on his play in Kelowna. Since then, we've watched him play for two full years in the AHL, and it should be pretty obvious that neither his skating ability nor his shot/finishing skills project as a top-6 forward in the NHL.

He isn't a home run. He's been a somewhat disappointing pick who may still be able to eke out an NHL career as a defensive depth winger. Or may not.
Lind is physically maturing, and his type of game is most effective if a player is a man, and not still a boy.
Plus, he does have a great shot, and does skate well. And these two are getting even better as he develops his man strength.
You are entitled to an opinion, but the experts disagree with you. Again, I’ll side with expert hockey minds (as cited) over an HF poster.
 

MS

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Lind is and always has been very much a project. Had a long ways to go athletically and still has steps to be taken.
The thing with Lind is he's an agitator, has NHL level skill a good stick and hockey sense. I would much rather his skating and strength deficiencies that can be improved (hopefully to an NHL level) than a robust burner with a 2C brain and poor NHL hands.
I see a similar to Josh Leivo player. A guy that probably takes awhile to marinate and may never be a big deal but can provide middle 6 value and some potential for upside if he gains confidence and improves.
I think it's early to put a cap on him but MS likes to remind everyone of the unlikelihood because of his trajectory. Still a fun prospect to follow.

I have nothing against Lind. He was horrible in 18-19 but re-established himself as a depth prospect in 19-20 with a chance to be a useful NHL depth player.

Leivo is a much physically stronger player with a rocket of a shot. His skillset was more impressive and even then he's taken until age 26 to establish himself as a solid middle-6 NHL forward.

In a given year, only 2-3 2nd rounders will develop into top-6/top-4 assets of any real value. Lind is not tracking to be one of those guys.

I don't think people realize that only 25% of 2nd rounders ever stick in the NHL, and Lind is not in the top 25% of his round right now. His stock has gone down since being drafted, and he started as a 25% shot.
 

MS

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Lind is physically maturing, and his type of game is most effective if a player is a man, and not still a boy.
Plus, he does have a great shot, and does skate well. And these two are getting even better as he develops his man strength.
You are entitled to an opinion, but the experts disagree with you. Again, I’ll side with expert hockey minds (as cited) over an HF poster.

He does not have a great shot nor skate well, no matter how many times you repeat it. Again, how many times did you watch him play over the past two years?

Also the bloggers and media guys you're listing are not 'experts' and I'll put my track record up against theirs any day of the week.
 

UK Canuck

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I would suggest that if any prospect had a "great shot" and was a "very good skater" with Lind's skill level and compete level then they'd probably already be a fixture in the NHL by now
 

UK Canuck

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I would suggest that if any prospect had a "great shot" and was a "very good skater" with Lind's skill level and compete level then they'd probably already be a fixture in the NHL by now


this isnt to say I think Lind will be a complete failure, I expect him to eventually be given an opportunity in the NHL and maybe even become a solid bottom 6 forward, but he really doesn't possess the full skillset to become a quality NHL'er IMO
 
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Bleach Clean

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He does not have a great shot nor skate well, no matter how many times you repeat it. Again, how many times did you watch him play over the past two years?

Also the bloggers and media guys you're listing are not 'experts' and I'll put my track record up against theirs any day of the week.


If we employ the same criteria we use for other media personnel, then Ryan Biech, is an expert. We can't pick and choose if he has the same function as other reporters/writers. He's been on TV, Sportsnet, TSN1040, numerous papers, official podcasts etc... That's an expert based upon the more traditional criteria.

Saying that, he's making a projection based upon what he believes to be a reasonable methodology. That methodology is not universally accepted. And so, refusing to defer is not denial. However, Biech does make a sound case based upon the numbers. Can you make a better case by the numbers?

Your argument seems to be more eye test than data though, so that makes this a little more confusing.
 

VC

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On Lind, seems like a slightly grittier with a worse shot version of Leivo. And like Leivo, establishes himself with a new organization by the age of 25 if he has the determination to do so.
 

Bad Goalie

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Yeah, I have the same concerns that at some point he's going to get himself absolutely cold-cocked, and what that will do to his game when that inevitably happens.

I have mentioned this a couple of times when posters speak of his agitation skills. He just pushes his yapping face into the opponents punch range with his own hands down. He then gets punched in the face. I have said he is going to get into the wrong face and it might end up like Pedan. That KO was hard to watch.

In his 2 seasons in Utica I have not seen evidence of this physical game others speak of either. He padded his stats playing with the Comets best skill forwards on most nights (Boucher, Baertschi, Goldobin, or Bailey) and playing on the team's AHL #3 PP. Thus, his stats are bit misleading. He was not a physical player and is not particularly adept at handling the puck when challenged heading into the offensive zone. He goes to the net without the puck and found the open offside spots while the top players on his line attracted the opponents' prime attention.

I want to see how he does in his next AHL season when he becomes a top forward based on the departure of the guys he played with and then has to go against the best defensive group the other team has or their top offensive line going head to head. As of now, the only one of those top forwards from last season would be Justin Bailey. Wonder if his agent will find a European team that's interested in giving him a $ offer like Boucher got. He too has one RFA season remaining.
 
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VanJack

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On Lind, seems like a slightly grittier with a worse shot version of Leivo. And like Leivo, establishes himself with a new organization by the age of 25 if he has the determination to do so.
Agreed, this is a huge season for Kole Lind. He has to build on his 41 point season and be one of Utica's top forwards. Unfortunately he might have to accomplish it with a much diminished Comets lineup.

And of course we're all assuming that the AHL season will proceed normally with training camp in September and games with actual fans in the building by October. But that's looking more unlikely with each passing week.

If the AHL does get up and running, it might not happen before Xmas. And the Comets roster is likely to stacked with rookies and whoever else they can find on the NHL-AHL UFA list or the waiver wire.
 

MS

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If we employ the same criteria we use for other media personnel, then Ryan Biech, is an expert. We can't pick and choose if he has the same function as other reporters/writers. He's been on TV, Sportsnet, TSN1040, numerous papers, official podcasts etc... That's an expert based upon the more traditional criteria.

Saying that, he's making a projection based upon what he believes to be a reasonable methodology. That methodology is not universally accepted. And so, refusing to defer is not denial. However, Biech does make a sound case based upon the numbers. Can you make a better case by the numbers?

Your argument seems to be more eye test than data though, so that makes this a little more confusing.

That article from Biech is from 2018.

If you took a scouting report for Hunter Shinkaruk from 2012 and plotted his production relative to his peers in 2012 he'd look incredible. But by 2015 ... we had more information, and things had changed.

Again :

1) when you look at Lind's physical tools, he does not project as a top-6 NHL player. He isn't a good enough skater, and isn't a good enough finisher. When not playing with Reid Boucher - probably the best forward in the AHL last season - he's struggling to drive offense in the AHL in his 2nd year at that level.

2) when you look at his production, he doesn't project as a top-6 NHL player. Go around the league and look at the productive top-6 forwards. Virtually all of them either skipped the AHL entirely or barely touched that league. Playing 100+ games in the AHL is basically the kiss of death in terms of being an impact NHL forward. Guys who are scoring 40 points in their 2nd AHL season ... don't go on to become productive high-end NHLers, save the odd unicorn.

3) In a given 2nd round in a given year, maybe 10% of selections (2-3 players) become top-6/top-4 guys, and 25% (7-8 players) become NHL regulars of some sort. When you look at the peers around him, Lind is not tracking at that level. He's probably the 10th-12th best prospect in that group right now.

As I've said multiple times, he had a much better year last year to salvage some potential, and he's a smart player with a bit of jam who might have the defensive chops to eventually stick in the NHL as a serviceable bottom-6 winger. And that's not a bad result at all. Thinking he's going to be a top-6 guy is nothing but pure hope and pie in the sky at this point.
 

Bleach Clean

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That article from Biech is from 2018.

If you took a scouting report for Hunter Shinkaruk from 2012 and plotted his production relative to his peers in 2012 he'd look incredible. But by 2015 ... we had more information, and things had changed.

Again :

1) when you look at Lind's physical tools, he does not project as a top-6 NHL player. He isn't a good enough skater, and isn't a good enough finisher. When not playing with Reid Boucher - probably the best forward in the AHL last season - he's struggling to drive offense in the AHL in his 2nd year at that level.

2) when you look at his production, he doesn't project as a top-6 NHL player. Go around the league and look at the productive top-6 forwards. Virtually all of them either skipped the AHL entirely or barely touched that league. Playing 100+ games in the AHL is basically the kiss of death in terms of being an impact NHL forward. Guys who are scoring 40 points in their 2nd AHL season ... don't go on to become productive high-end NHLers, save the odd unicorn.

3) In a given 2nd round in a given year, maybe 10% of selections (2-3 players) become top-6/top-4 guys, and 25% (7-8 players) become NHL regulars of some sort. When you look at the peers around him, Lind is not tracking at that level. He's probably the 10th-12th best prospect in that group right now.

As I've said multiple times, he had a much better year last year to salvage some potential, and he's a smart player with a bit of jam who might have the defensive chops to eventually stick in the NHL as a serviceable bottom-6 winger. And that's not a bad result at all. Thinking he's going to be a top-6 guy is nothing but pure hope and pie in the sky at this point.


I don't disagree with your rationale on the player. Instead, I'm saying it's unreasonable to question whether Biech is an authority or an expert. By the criteria we have used here for others, he most definitely is an expert. Or rather, a media authority that has made it his business to track and assess prospect growth for years.

The point about Biech's take lacking 2 years of additional information is a good one. That's definitely something to consider. The one about production is also a good one.
 

VanJack

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For Shinkaruk, it was 'top-six' or bust....and bust he did. As for Lind, early in his career he's shown that he can play up and down the lineup. So his chances of eventually sticking in the NHL are far higher.

So comparing the two players stats in their first couple of AHL seasons, is beyond meaningless.
 

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